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DS9-RW

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#41 writergroupie

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:38 PM

View PostDWF, on 20 January 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

I really don't think it's a matter of serialized television VS episodic television, DS9 was less popular than TNG from the start and Worf was brought in the bump up the ratings. TNG is should noted has continued to remain on television which is more than could be said for the other modern Star Trek series.
I think a large part of why DS9 was less popular than TNG was the serialized storytelling.  It was hard, if not impossible to jump in for a random episode, certainly by the 3rd season or so.

Granted, it was also considered a "darker" content show than shiny happy TNG - which the average audience back then did not gravitate toward as a storytelling style.  And the other main reason was the static/non-starship setting which turned a lot of TOS/TNG viewers off.  

That said, I think it could be argued that DS9 is the best-written Trek series *as a whole* (and I say that with a deep-decades-long love of TOS), and is the least dated of all the shows in large part, as I said, due to the serialized storytelling and the fact that it can be an incredibly dark show, which is very current storytelling style.

Try showing a modern viewer an ep of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT.  I think they would absolutely gravitate towards dark, story-arc-driven DS9.  Unless you showed them what is generally considered the best ep of TOS - City on the Edge of Forever - probably the darkest episode TOS ever produced - a story of drug overdose, rehab and death!

Then again, i think Millennium is underrated for the same reasons - it was bright shiny X-Files darker, more serialized sibling.  People were turned off of it quickly.  But I think in comparison, Millennium (the first two seasons at least) is an incredible show that still feels fresh and could run today.  It, like DS9, was probably just ahead of its time. IMO :)
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#42 QuiGon John

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

^ I agree with most of what you just said. However, even though it's incredibly dated, I actually think TOS holds up the best today. Why? Because it's so incredibly dated that I no longer expect it to be like a modern show. I can take it for what it is.

In some ways, DS9 is harder to readjust to because it was trying to do a lot of things that modern shows do, but it hadn't worked out all the kinks yet...

Edited by QuiGon John, 20 January 2013 - 09:47 PM.


#43 BklnScott

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

Jill, I rewatched Millennium Season 2 a few years back and it scared the bejesus out of me.  An obscure gem, that season.

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#44 DWF

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:32 PM

View Postwritergroupie, on 20 January 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

View PostDWF, on 20 January 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

I really don't think it's a matter of serialized television VS episodic television, DS9 was less popular than TNG from the start and Worf was brought in the bump up the ratings. TNG is should noted has continued to remain on television which is more than could be said for the other modern Star Trek series.
I think a large part of why DS9 was less popular than TNG was the serialized storytelling.  It was hard, if not impossible to jump in for a random episode, certainly by the 3rd season or so.

Granted, it was also considered a "darker" content show than shiny happy TNG - which the average audience back then did not gravitate toward as a storytelling style.  And the other main reason was the static/non-starship setting which turned a lot of TOS/TNG viewers off.  

That said, I think it could be argued that DS9 is the best-written Trek series *as a whole* (and I say that with a deep-decades-long love of TOS), and is the least dated of all the shows in large part, as I said, due to the serialized storytelling and the fact that it can be an incredibly dark show, which is very current storytelling style.

Try showing a modern viewer an ep of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT.  I think they would absolutely gravitate towards dark, story-arc-driven DS9.  Unless you showed them what is generally considered the best ep of TOS - City on the Edge of Forever - probably the darkest episode TOS ever produced - a story of drug overdose, rehab and death!

Then again, i think Millennium is underrated for the same reasons - it was bright shiny X-Files darker, more serialized sibling.  People were turned off of it quickly.  But I think in comparison, Millennium (the first two seasons at least) is an incredible show that still feels fresh and could run today.  It, like DS9, was probably just ahead of its time. IMO :)


The modern audiences are still watching TNG and TOS. DS9 and Voyager had almost the same ratings so it's not really a matter of storytelling. Heavlly serialized shows seem to appeal mainly to the fans of a given show.

DS9's bad ratings got it shoved all around the schedule here, I even had to tape it at 2AM for part of season three.
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#45 writergroupie

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:18 AM

View PostQuiGon John, on 20 January 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

^ I agree with most of what you just said. However, even though it's incredibly dated, I actually think TOS holds up the best today. Why? Because it's so incredibly dated that I no longer expect it to be like a modern show. I can take it for what it is.

In some ways, DS9 is harder to readjust to because it was trying to do a lot of things that modern shows do, but it hadn't worked out all the kinks yet...
I can see where TOS is finally reaching the point of a different level of enjoyment as we are now almost half a century :shocked: beyond the era it was made in, but I still think a modern viewer with no preconceptions of the show would find it cheesy - hello, space hippies and bodice-ripping! LOL  Which also makes me sad because there is still such a treasure trove of wonder and thought to be found in TOS, along with humor and adventure.

But I agree with you that DS9 is a bit of a prototype of where other shows would go.  And of course some of the costumes and hairstyles are dated - hello shoulder pads! - but to me the storytelling of DS9 would be the most palatable to a modern viewer.
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#46 writergroupie

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:33 AM

View PostBklnScott, on 20 January 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

Jill, I rewatched Millennium Season 2 a few years back and it scared the bejesus out of me.  An obscure gem, that season.
:wub: :wub: :wub:  One of my all time favorite seasons of television ever containing one of the greatest written hours of television since the original Twilight Zone - "Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me" by the insanely brilliant Darin Morgan.  That season showcased the potential that show could have had for truly scary, challenging stories.

I've also come to appreciate Chris Carter's original season one vision for the show - a dark serial killer hunter story which would be at home anywhere on TV in the last several years but was harshly criticized as way too dark at the time it was made.

Probably why Morgan & Wong were allowed to go in a completely different direction for the second season.  But then CC decided he wanted to go back and simply writer-fiated away the insanely awesome season two finale. :(  I eventually learned to enjoy a bit of season three, but after where season two had gone and then been curtailed painfully, I wasn't sorry the show ended after its third season.

Edited by writergroupie, 21 January 2013 - 01:34 AM.

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But... but... if it's not magic and sparkly how can I use it to reshape the universe?  Without the magic sparklies, it's like... just a metaphor.
-- Me (on bonsai)

#47 FarscapeOne

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:43 PM

I alsbolutely loved MILLENNIUM in its first two seasons, particularly season 1.  It showed just how grotesue humans can really be, and it didn't really hold back.

In some ways, it was a good thing that DS9 never got a season by itself.  If it had, it might not have been as good as it was because Berman and the network might have pushed for a more TNG style of storytelling.  So being left alone rather helped them creatively.  We'll just put DS9 as one of those series that would end up being more beloved and valued long after its ending than while running.  At least we got 7 full years, which is FAR greater than most series that fall in that category.

#48 FarscapeOne

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:46 PM

The irony is DS9, being always criticized as too dark, had more humor than almost the rest of the franchise put together.  Granted, it was likely needed to help balance out some of the darker elements of the series, but I just find it funny how that ended up happening.

#49 FarscapeOne

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

View PostDWF, on 20 January 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

View PostJosh, on 20 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

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That's what I meant.  They did that kind of thing all the time.  Walk right up to an intriguing and impactful character beat only to back away at the last moment - as if spooked.  Sometimes they even left the table set for it!  Very frustrating.

TNG is a frustrating show in a lot of ways. In DS9, you can see a clear character arc for many of the characters but in TNG, many of the characters remained unchanged from beginning to end. When they took chances, like Picard's Borgification or him living a second life ("Inner Light"), these life changing experiences were waved aside usually by the next episode. I was stunned they devoted an episode to Picard's Borg trauma ("Family") but after that, nothing. I guess you can only expect so much from a show which is very much a product of its time.

As Picard's brother told him, he'd ave to face what the Borg did him in space or under the sea and it was brought back up again in Descent and the movie First Contact. But then earth was attack during the Dominion War and nothing was made of that and DS9 was magically repaired after the Jem Hadar attack in To The Death.

When Earth was attacked by the Breen in the Dominion War, it was at the tail end of the series.  They had so much to wrap up that there really wasn't time to get into that.  I can forgive that because of the timing of that event in the life of the series.

As for the station damage in "TO THE DEATH", it can be argued that some time had passed between the beginning of that episode and the next episode, and that DS9 had the resources of Starfleet and a lot of engineers to help fix what happened.

The thing I could never forgive, and ultimately one of the reasons why the series didn't work for me well, was how Voyager was CONSTANTLY damaged, and not just slightly damaged, there were multiple times where it was SEVERELY damaged to the point that the corridors were a complete mess.  But it was completely fixed the next episode.  How in the hell could they have fixed all that damage so quickly, and not only do that but make it LOOK like there was no damage to begin with?  They certainly didn't have enough supplies and material to do that, even if you factor in trading with other species.  And that's another thing that bothered me... at some point, there would have to be some cosmetic changes to the Voyager simply because they would run out of Starfleet resources on board, so the look of at least SOME of the ship should have been different.  That series was the most glaring example of standalone storytelling at its worst, in that regard.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 21 January 2013 - 01:55 PM.


#50 Josh

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:56 PM

See, I always assumed Voyager was this magically repairing ship. One push of a button and voila! Hull breaches sealed! Burn damage restored! Dead unnamed crew members brought back to life!  ;)
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#51 DWF

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 21 January 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

View PostDWF, on 20 January 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

View PostJosh, on 20 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Quote

That's what I meant.  They did that kind of thing all the time.  Walk right up to an intriguing and impactful character beat only to back away at the last moment - as if spooked.  Sometimes they even left the table set for it!  Very frustrating.

TNG is a frustrating show in a lot of ways. In DS9, you can see a clear character arc for many of the characters but in TNG, many of the characters remained unchanged from beginning to end. When they took chances, like Picard's Borgification or him living a second life ("Inner Light"), these life changing experiences were waved aside usually by the next episode. I was stunned they devoted an episode to Picard's Borg trauma ("Family") but after that, nothing. I guess you can only expect so much from a show which is very much a product of its time.

As Picard's brother told him, he'd ave to face what the Borg did him in space or under the sea and it was brought back up again in Descent and the movie First Contact. But then earth was attack during the Dominion War and nothing was made of that and DS9 was magically repaired after the Jem Hadar attack in To The Death.

When Earth was attacked by the Breen in the Dominion War, it was at the tail end of the series.  They had so much to wrap up that there really wasn't time to get into that.  I can forgive that because of the timing of that event in the life of the series.

As for the station damage in "TO THE DEATH", it can be argued that some time had passed between the beginning of that episode and the next episode, and that DS9 had the resources of Starfleet and a lot of engineers to help fix what happened.

The thing I could never forgive, and ultimately one of the reasons why the series didn't work for me well, was how Voyager was CONSTANTLY damaged, and not just slightly damaged, there were multiple times where it was SEVERELY damaged to the point that the corridors were a complete mess.  But it was completely fixed the next episode.  How in the hell could they have fixed all that damage so quickly, and not only do that but make it LOOK like there was no damage to begin with?  They certainly didn't have enough supplies and material to do that, even if you factor in trading with other species.  And that's another thing that bothered me... at some point, there would have to be some cosmetic changes to the Voyager simply because they would run out of Starfleet resources on board, so the look of at least SOME of the ship should have been different.  That series was the most glaring example of standalone storytelling at its worst, in that regard.

Except that in the Pathfinder eps. on Voyager, Starfleet headquarters is just fine and no DS9 is a Cardassian station so you just fix it that quickly after losing a pylon and we know that one was taken from Tempok Nor to replace it since we saw it after that.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#52 FarscapeOne

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:48 AM

I'm sure whatever damage that Starfleet Headquarters sustained would get full priority, since it IS the headquarters of Starfleet.  And didn't we only see a piece of that area?  That section might not have sustained much damage, if any, during the Breen attack.  Plus, it was a number of months after the war itself was over.  The Breen attack happened at least a month before the end of the Dominion War.

As for DS9, I agree that did stretch credibility.  On the whole, DS9 didn't make the mistakes TNG and more glaringly VOYAGER did.

#53 DWF

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 22 January 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

I'm sure whatever damage that Starfleet Headquarters sustained would get full priority, since it IS the headquarters of Starfleet.  And didn't we only see a piece of that area?  That section might not have sustained much damage, if any, during the Breen attack.  Plus, it was a number of months after the war itself was over.  The Breen attack happened at least a month before the end of the Dominion War.

As for DS9, I agree that did stretch credibility.  On the whole, DS9 didn't make the mistakes TNG and more glaringly VOYAGER did.


True they only showed a small part of the damage but it'd still take a rather long time to repair the damage. And I can't agree DS9 made as many mistakes as the other shows, it all depends on what you view as a mistake.

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The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#54 FarscapeOne

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:17 PM

What I meant about DS9 making fewer mistakes was about how actions and damage wasn't followed later in other episodes or even seasons.  With TNG and VOYAGER, it was almost always resolved at the end of the episode.  That was one of the reasons why DS9 is and always will be my favorite of the STAR TREK series because they made it a point that actions had consequences, just like real life.

#55 enTranced

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

While I was nearly 99% happy with the boundaries that Voyager and DS9 set up between themselves, Voyager got the Borg, which I was mostly tired with anyway, and Q which I hated on Voyager (along with most of the show itself) this one visit by Q to DS9 showed how much FUN he could have been on the more shadowy DS9.

For one thing, he still has his menace here and his casual willingness to let the station get blown to bits. After years of being the buffoon on Vyager you forget just how dangerous he was at this time. When he whispers "all....gone" to Sisko and Sisko's stunned terror it works because he really, really could just let them all in limbo if he wanted to.

And you mirror that to Q himself being stunned that Sisko could and just did punch him in the face. Awesome!

So much better , so much better use of Q then the dreadful flirting and pranks we had to endure on Voyager.

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#56 writergroupie

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 11:55 PM

^ You make a valid point that Q lost all his menace on Voyager and this was the last gasp of it.  But Q's "magic" wasn't a good fit for DS9 and just would have gotten into a "God contest" with the Prophets completely overshadowing the story of Bajor and the Cardassians (which eventually the Dominion war did much of as well, but was a far more interesting way to go long-term for the characters than a God war).
I write, therefore I am.

But... but... if it's not magic and sparkly how can I use it to reshape the universe?  Without the magic sparklies, it's like... just a metaphor.
-- Me (on bonsai)

#57 enTranced

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:21 AM

^ I see what you are saying, and I agree that is a trap they could have fallen into but I disagree that it would HAVE to happen that way. I for one wouldn't have minded seeing Q meet the Prophets! How would that have turned out? Who knows but it would have been fun to see!

But I think there would have been so much to see with just the crew themselves! And the darker format of the show would have allowed Q to keep his menace,we could have had a continuation of the much better, much more satisfying TNG Q instead of *sigh* Janeway's pet Q. :barf:

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#58 writergroupie

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostenTranced, on 25 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

^ I see what you are saying, and I agree that is a trap they could have fallen into but I disagree that it would HAVE to happen that way. I for one wouldn't have minded seeing Q meet the Prophets! How would that have turned out? Who knows but it would have been fun to see!
But then the DS9 characters just become pawns in that war (assuming it isn't an immediate "this god swats that god - the end"), rather than the characters driving the story.  I still think too much omnipotence spoils the story stew. :)
I write, therefore I am.

But... but... if it's not magic and sparkly how can I use it to reshape the universe?  Without the magic sparklies, it's like... just a metaphor.
-- Me (on bonsai)

#59 enTranced

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:50 AM

Hold on Jill, my teen self who watched TNG right from the start, the fan who's shriek was heard round the world when Q showed up on his Throne of Doom™? Yeah he wants to tell you something. Here he is:

Q ROXXXXXXXX DA HOUSE YOU FOOL!

Ok, ok, I think she gets the point...now here is a Funny Bone and I think there is some Jolt in the fridge for you.

Sorry about that but I hope you see where I am coming from now. :blush:

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Edited by enTranced, 25 February 2013 - 10:51 AM.

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#60 writergroupie

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:01 AM

^ I adore Q.

Deja Q is one of the best Trek episodes ever. :wub:

I'm not knocking Q.

But he didn't belong on DS9. :p
I write, therefore I am.

But... but... if it's not magic and sparkly how can I use it to reshape the universe?  Without the magic sparklies, it's like... just a metaphor.
-- Me (on bonsai)



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