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2.26 The Jem'Hadar

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#1 Orpheus

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:17 AM

On a camping trip in the Gamma Quadrant, Sisko, Jake, Nog, and Quark encounter the ruthless soldiers of the Dominion, the Jem'Hadar. (Season finale)



#2 Josh

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:24 AM

Pretty good. Action adventure DS9 is usually entertaining and this is no exception. The battle scene at the end was the best the show had done to date and the destruction of the Odyssey hurt. People can protest all they want but I'm betting the Enterprise would have met the same fate if it had been there instead. Other great scenes include the Jem'Hadar giving the datapad to Kira (which Nana Visitor sells) and Quark's final rant about human/Ferengi values to Sisko.

What didn't work? Nog. Ferengi squealing is almost always unbearable and the character remains pretty insufferable in general. It was great to see Jake, though. We haven't seen him since "Playing God."
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#3 FarscapeOne

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

It did hurt seeing the Odyssey destroyed.

I think it was very intentional on the producers part to make her a Galaxy class ship, which was at the time pretty much the top of the line starship Starfleet had.  The Dominion relatively easily taking care of that kind of ship makes them seem a much more severe threat than if they blew up a Miranda class ship, for example.  Or even an Excelsior class.

Though I do sometimes wonder if the Galaxy class really IS the more top of the line, given how many of them were destroyed.  The Yamato, the Odyssey, the Enterprise... there were originally only 6 built, counting the namesake, according to the technical manual.  Of course, we saw a bunch during the Dominion War, but that was likely because they were rushed into production and probably weren't completely finished, just made well enough to get out and fight.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 25 March 2013 - 03:34 PM.


#4 DWF

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:04 PM

I was a little suprised that Sisko took Quark's attack on him and humanity without even a good argument. The destruction of the Odyessy was pretty cool but it's hard to find a good picture of it since for some odd reason all the pictures are alittle fuzzy, I guess to mask the fact that it was an Enterprise model from Cause And Effect, but it showed how ruthless the Jem'Hadar could be. In retrospect Eris is an oddity being the only telekenetic Vorta and I still have to wonder where she teleported to at the end of the ep., I can't imagine she was teleported all the way though the wormhole.

Edited by DWF, 26 March 2013 - 03:48 PM.

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#5 enTranced

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:43 PM

"Oh sure you Hu-mons talk about tolerance but you only mean it for races that remind you of yourselves!" - Quark

View PostDWF, on 25 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

I was a little suprised that Sisko took Quark's attack on him and humanity without even a good argument.

I loved that scene. I loved it that Quark shoved it in his face that the Ferengi were not just like us, they are better. Pretty much any time that DS9 did that with the Ferengi I was overjoyed, and this was one of the best times. Here was this ridiculous little Ferengi with blue ooze on his massive ears and then he just slams it home on Sisko.


Quote

The destruction of the Odyessy was pretty cool but it's hard to find a good picture of it since for some odd reason all the pictures are alittle fuzzy, I guess to mask the fact that it was an Enterprise model from Cause And Effect, but it showed how ruthless the Jem'Hadar could be.

The whole Odyessy sequence was gorgeous, included the massive saucer section shot with the tiny Runabouts flanking it. The destruction DID hurt and it was a great announcement on what the show would be dealing with going forward. In many ways it was even better then Best of Both Worlds because you knew that the type of show DS9 was there would be no easy answers.

Quote

In retrospect Eris is an oddity being the only telepathic Vorta and I still have to wonder where she teleported to at the end of the ep., I can't imagine she was teleported all the way though the wormhole.

While I love me some Weyoun, it has always been Eris that fascinated me and not because she is like some hot sexy evil Kes either. :blush:

*ahem*

I have always wondered if at least some of her cover story was real, that she was a different race then Weyon's since IIRC the Vorta were a engineered race right? Maybe she has a different base code that they did the Vorta treatment on? Or maybe she is some sort of Uber-Vorta?

Any way another 5/5 episode from me.

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Edited by enTranced, 25 March 2013 - 06:45 PM.

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#6 DWF

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

Well Quark annoyed Sisko enough for him to threaten to put a fist in his opinion at times the only more annoying than Quark was how passive Sisko could be at times. The battle wasn't for me as good as the opening of Emissary against the Borg nor the Star Wars style battle scene in TNG's Preemptive Strike, but they did as much as they could be with a partial model of the Enterprise. I remember Molly Hagen from when she was on The Nutt House, she was also in Code Of Silence with Chuck Norris and she's still a fairly busy actress.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#7 QuiGon John

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:02 PM

This is a decent episode and a good introduction to the Dominion, but it felt a little bland for a season finale. Half the episode was a camping trip, and then the newly-introduced Big Bad doesn't even get developed until next season.

(Actually, DS9 really didn't do season finales all that well, by comparison to the frequent cliffhangers on TNG: "A Call to Arms" was freaking outstanding, the high point of the series, and In the Hands of the Prophets was a solid way to bring Season One full-circle. But the seasons 2-3-4 finales are pretty low-key and could have stood to raise the stakes a bit more.)

Anyway, I liked Quark's speech to Sisko in this episode, one of the few times they convincingly justified the Ferengi culture. Blowing up the Galaxy-class ship didn't have as much effect on me, as I wasn't a big TNG fan at this point, but it did make the point that the Dominion was a force to be reckoned with. Though I wish they'd given us a little more about the Federation solving the Dominion's ability to cut through their shields: All we get is a one-off line. While it makes sense that technology would advance with a war imminent, it felt like the Dominion went awfully quickly from completely unbeatable holy crap we're doomed to just another enemy, more or less on equal footing with the Federation.

I like the actress who plays this Vorta and she certainly has the look down, but her Awesome Mind Powers should have been explained at some point. We didn't even get a one-off line about that.

Anyway, a pretty good episode that just looks a little pale in comparison to the run of great shows we had near the end of season two. I give it 7 out of 10, between three and three and a half stars.

#8 DWF

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:12 PM

I found most of Quark's comments to Sisko to be boarderline racist actually, one minute Quark is buttering up to Sisko to try and get his permission to sell things on the station's communications channel, the next out of fear of the outdoors he pretty much blames Sisko for setting himself on fire. And Sisko was right he didn't need Quark's approval for his own point of view, let alone after Quark invited himself on the trip. Even Eris was getting tired of Quark after just meeting him, even going so far as to ask Sisko twice if they just leave him on behind.


Contrast this to the Quark who was willing to defend the station in The Way Of The Warrior, but thoughout the second season Quark should be thrown off the station for some of things he's done and is just given little more than a slap on wrist.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#9 enTranced

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

^ Again, with all the crap that is said about Quark and yes his entire fracking species do you blame the guy?

So yeah, he snapped a little but in his defense, was Quark WRONG? I don't think so. :)

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#10 DWF

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:39 PM

Even Nog was disgusted by Quark's behavior so no I don't think his feelings apply to all his race and Quark even blamed Nog's attitude on Sisko. Quark can't blame Sisko for not scuccessfully being able to suck up him.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#11 QuiGon John

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:55 PM

Quark is probably a better barometer of the typical Ferengi's attitude than Nog, who preferred the Starfleet way so much that he joined up.

Is the culture of the Federation morally superior, from our point of view, to the culture of the Ferengi? Yes, I would say so. But presumably the Ferengi have a point of view, too, and it was nice to hear it clearly articulated for once. And Sisko may have been a bit passive about it, but I find that far better than the inevitable lecture Quark would have gotten from Grandpa Picard, the Federation's foremost expert on "Because I said so!"

The Ferengi are a constant target of racism from basically everyone. That doesn't excuse racism in turn, of course, but it does make clear that DS9's characters live in an imperfect Universe where both sides have problems communicating and accepting those who are different. In that, it's kind of like the real one.

Edited by QuiGon John, 27 March 2013 - 11:56 PM.


#12 DWF

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:47 AM

Quark's point of view I think is only his own, the Ferengi go though their own kidn of revolution of sorts after the war and Quark becomes the throwback, he refuses to accept the changes that will happen now that his own brother os the Grand Nagus. But if Star Trek has taught anymore it's that you can't judge an entire races by the actions and feelings of just one of them. And thoughout the season Quark should've been booted off the station more than once for his actions what he did in Invasive Procedures was enough and I don't see anybody defending his actions there.
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"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#13 enTranced

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:46 AM

View PostQuiGon John, on 27 March 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:


And Sisko may have been a bit passive about it, but I find that far better than the inevitable lecture Quark would have gotten from Grandpa Picard, the Federation's foremost expert on "Because I said so!"

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#14 writergroupie

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:59 PM

Conclusions from this episode:

The Dominion is bad@$$.
The Jem'Hadar are bad@$$.  (I loved Talak'talan just walking through the containment shield as if it was nothing.)
The Jem'Hadar's scarab ships are bad@$$.
Sisko is bad@$$.

Jake is a smart resourceful kid who should not have grown up to be a writer. :p
And aww, Odo cares about Quark. :)
And Ira just adored the Ferengi, didn't he? :)

I actually liked Eris too - but I understand why they decided that telekinetic ability was one too many weapons for the Vorta.  All they needed was cunning (and Jeffrey Combs LOL) and they were cool.  I just wish there had been some explanation tossed off why Eris was a special case that couldn't be recreated/cloned for her ability.  Oh well.

A really fun season ender that upped the stakes considerably for the show - and really showed why DS9 would need a "tough little ship" to protect it. :)  Bring on the space turtle - woohoo! :)
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#15 writergroupie

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:00 PM

View PostenTranced, on 28 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

View PostQuiGon John, on 27 March 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

And Sisko may have been a bit passive about it, but I find that far better than the inevitable lecture Quark would have gotten from Grandpa Picard, the Federation's foremost expert on "Because I said so!"

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Agreed - brilliant. :D
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#16 prizzm

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 04:28 PM

View PostDWF, on 28 March 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

And thoughout the season Quark should've been booted off the station more than once for his actions what he did in Invasive Procedures was enough and I don't see anybody defending his actions there.

Maybe Quark should have been booted off station, but Sisko was hardly in a position to do so, given that he had coerced Quark into staying on DS9 in the pilot episode.  I wonder if he recorded that incident in his Commander's Log?

#17 DWF

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 05:50 PM

View Postprizzm, on 24 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

View PostDWF, on 28 March 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

And thoughout the season Quark should've been booted off the station more than once for his actions what he did in Invasive Procedures was enough and I don't see anybody defending his actions there.

Maybe Quark should have been booted off station, but Sisko was hardly in a position to do so, given that he had coerced Quark into staying on DS9 in the pilot episode.  I wonder if he recorded that incident in his Commander's Log?


Why not?  Sisko is the station administrator if he wants somebody gone they're gone and in any event Kira also told him he was finished on the station.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#18 prizzm

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

View Postprizzm, on 24 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

View PostDWF, on 28 March 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

And thoughout the season Quark should've been booted off the station more than once for his actions what he did in Invasive Procedures was enough and I don't see anybody defending his actions there.

Maybe Quark should have been booted off station, but Sisko was hardly in a position to do so, given that he had coerced Quark into staying on DS9 in the pilot episode.  I wonder if he recorded that incident in his Commander's Log?

Sisko's action in coercing Quark to stay on station seems ironic to me.  Some of Sisko's own ancestors had been slaves, and he had some resentment because of that, yet he was willing to restrict someone else's freedom (a civilian).  In fact, he seemed to get a kick out of it.  Maybe he was bluffing in threatening imprisonment for Nog, but how was Quark to know that?  Before Sisko, he had had Dukat to contend with, and I bet Dukat wouldn't have been bluffing.

Quark stayed to protect his family.  I thought he came off better than Sisko in that incident.

#19 DWF

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:17 PM

Sisko needed one business leader  to stay and convince the others and it was Quark who laughed at becoming a community leader, a role he seemed to continue to have even when the station surrendered to the Dominion.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido



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