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Should PTSD Exclude Gun Ownership?

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#61 Themis

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

View PostMark, on 21 January 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

Given that knowledge, where do we as a society draw the line? Should we allow people to obtain grenades for their "well regulated militia"? Perhaps to satisfy you or someone else s definition of an "armed, well-regulated militia", we need to allow them to have tanks, jets, artillery, and orbiting communication satellites. Again, where do we draw the line. Perhaps they need nuclear missiles to be considered "armed"?

I was going to post something similar last night.  

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Why do our average citizens who cannot be easily well-regulated (as we've noted by how difficult it would be to regulate who should qualify for a gun license) need military grade firearms for their personal arsenal?

I'm tending to agree with that line of thinking.  Besides, it isn't always a case of who has the best toys.  It could be a case of who can shoot and actually hit something.  Who has the knowledge to hack a computer control system.  Who can infiltrate an organization.  Many other factors.

And I admit I have absolutely no knowledge of firearms and which can be modified to do what or what can spray a lot of bullets into a crowd so I can't talk specifics.

JMJ49 has some good suggestions regarding regulations:

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Serious classes for gun owners emphasizing skills in care, handling, securing  weapons as well as lawful use and responsibility. I would also suggest recurrent training and updating.

I would suggest that there be severe penalties for those who allow their weapons to get into the hands of others that use them in crime... People who accidentally discharge their weapon should suffer severe repercussions, there is not excuse for unsafe handling of a firearm. Likewise for people who allow guns to get into the hands of children.

Any mental illness disqualification has to be on a case-by-case basis.  Which is likely impractical.   But background checks need to  happen for anyone purchasing a gun anywhere.
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#62 gsmonks

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostJMJ49, on 22 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

No, you are the one who initiated the insults and digression. So vain as to not recognize yourself. If your message did contain any historical facts, which I doubt, you debased them yourself. I wonder if you actually wear garlic and have your ceiling covered in tin foil. No more time to waste on fools.

Do you actually know anything about the history of the NRA, the Republican Party and US militias? Did you read any of the links in this thread on those matters? It doesn't sound like it.

When you're done making childish insults, come back and present something like an argument. At the moment you're just making a fool of yourself.

Edited by gsmonks, 22 January 2013 - 12:14 PM.

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#63 gsmonks

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:36 PM

I'll post the Wiki link on militias here again, for everyone's edification:

http://en.wikipedia....ilitia_movement

Just so there's no confusion here, the US milita movement is a relatively new thing that bears little or no resemblance to militias of the distant past. The modern ilk tend to be the purview of white racist extremist nutters.

A salient point here is that militias exist because of perceived threats. Not actual threats, not imminent threats, not genuine threats but perceived threats. There is simply no getting around the fact that this smacks of paranoia and conspiracy theories, not reality.

There is strong representation within such organisations from the NeoCon movement, the extreme right-wing, various right-wing Christian nutter factions, and a representative sampling of Republicans. Another salient point is that all of the aforementioned harbour a disproportionately high percentage of the mentally ill. This is not opinion- this is a matter of public record, easily verified if you feel like doing a search yourself. The further people are to the right, the less mentally stable they are. Those in the extreme right camp tend to be especially susceptible to conspiracy theories and paranoia.

These people also tend to own the most firearms and assault weapons, including illegal toys such as shoulder-launched anti-aircraft weapons, bazookas, anti-aircraft guns, grenades, and various explosive devices. And this is precisely the reason that these people should be disarmed, their organisations banned, and handguns and assault weapons made illegal. They can't be trusted.

Defending them smacks of the same type of arguments you hear where bikers are concerned. "Oh, they're just guys who like riding Harleys! Look at all the good things they do, like the Teddy Bear Run!" And it is true that a good many law-abiding hangers-on populate their memberships. However, the true reason they're allowed to join is that their presence obfuscates the truth, that bikers gangs at their core are branches of organised crime. If this were the Middle East, the hangers-on would serve as human shields in times of conflict, and as "civilians who just happened to get caught in the middle".

The reason law-abiding citizens join biker gangs is the very same reason guys own assault weapons. It's a macho-man testosterone thing, being loutishly provocative. Vroom, vroom! Big noise! Bang-bang! See what a big noise I can make with a potentially dangerous thing? Hyuck, hyuck, hyuck.

As I said of guns before (not referring to target, sport and hunting rifles here): it they weren't provocative, no one would be interested in them.

Edited by gsmonks, 22 January 2013 - 03:40 PM.

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#64 Rhea

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:59 PM

JMJ49, I'll concede that most of the vets I knew were destroyed by drugs and PTSD rather than guns. I used to go to Letterman Hospital in San Francisco once a week with a group of us nursing students and we sang, not on a stage, but in the wards and rooms. I saw a lot of things that still send me into a rage all these years later. I was 18 my first year in nursing school, so I was the same age as the guys in the wards. The psych wards were the worst, to my mind. Anyway, that's beside the point.

I had two friends who killed themselves with guns, and three others who were lost to drugs when they came back. One got straight, one ended up in an institution, and another OD'd. I'd be surprised to find that there was anyone in direct combat who came home without some form of PTSD.

In the end my opinion doesn't matter, because they do a crappy or nonexistent job of identifying people, particularly young people, with mental diseases. I'd be surprised to find that most states even try, if any do.

Edited by Rhea, 22 January 2013 - 04:01 PM.

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#65 Cait

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:59 PM

JMJ49 & gsmonks are both warned for this exchange.

JMJ49 for personal attacks and gsmonks for baiting and engaging in the exchange.

This is not the way we debate in OT.

Both are now booted from the discussion.

To appeal these warnings please follow the OT guidelines and follow the procedure.



View PostJMJ49, on 22 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Too bad a perfectly good discussion has to be ruined my an egomaniac who when out of logical things to say has to make references to coils of garlic and vampires. So sad, actually pathetic.

View Postgsmonks, on 22 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

View PostJMJ49, on 22 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Too bad a perfectly good discussion has to be ruined my an egomaniac who when out of logical things to say has to make references to coils of garlic and vampires. So sad, actually pathetic.

Ah, I expect this type of nonsense (insults and digression) from those that want to avoid inconvenient things like historical facts, which were also mentioned. That's what's really pathetic here.

If you want to stoop this low, that's your affair. If you actually want to present some form of argument, bring it on!

View PostJMJ49, on 22 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

No, you are the one who initiated the insults and digression. So vain as to not recognize yourself. If your message did contain any historical facts, which I doubt, you debased them yourself. I wonder if you actually wear garlic and have your ceiling covered in tin foil. No more time to waste on fools.

View Postgsmonks, on 22 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

View PostJMJ49, on 22 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

No, you are the one who initiated the insults and digression. So vain as to not recognize yourself. If your message did contain any historical facts, which I doubt, you debased them yourself. I wonder if you actually wear garlic and have your ceiling covered in tin foil. No more time to waste on fools.

Do you actually know anything about the history of the NRA, the Republican Party and US militias? Did you read any of the links in this thread on those matters? It doesn't sound like it.

When you're done making childish insults, come back and present something like an argument. At the moment you're just making a fool of yourself.

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#66 Mark

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:25 PM

Mark: It's too bad this happened...both members otherwise had some great ideas and input. I suppose getting riled is always a possibility when discussing a fiery topic such as this one, that includes mental health and gun ownership. I'm surprised we made it all the way to the fourth page before someone got a warning.

Rhea, I wish the military would make more efforts in mentally decompressing their combat vets on return from active duty. I know they've already increased the availability for mental evaluation and care for our vets here in El Paso, but I think the best way is to try and prevent PTSD from happening in the first place. I think the military places our people in combat or combat-like situations for far too long. I can't imagine being in Iraq, or Afghanistan for a whole year or more without being able to come home and see my family and friends. I think they need to increase our troop rotations, so they're not in battle situations for extended periods, if that is at all possible.

I've got military friends who are in Afghanistan right now...and I can tell by talking with at least one them, that he's already totally stressed-out...and he's only been gone since late summer of 2012. I talk with him as much as possible on Facebook...and I hope my conversations with him can at least let the poor guy know that his friends (at least this one) miss him, and are supporting him as much as possible. I pray the communications he has with me allow him to escape some of stress of his combat situation...at least for a little while every week.

Edited by Mark, 23 January 2013 - 02:27 PM.

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#67 Themis

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

I don't see how any active military - at least anybody who starts out relatively sane - can NOT get PTSD considering where they have to go, the things they have to do, what they have to see and how they have to live while in active war zones.  That includes medical personnel stationed with them.
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#68 Lin731

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:37 PM

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I don't see how any active military - at least anybody who starts out relatively sane - can NOT get PTSD considering where they have to go, the things they have to do, what they have to see and how they have to live while in active war zones.  That includes medical personnel stationed with them.

I hear ya on that one. I honestly don't know what you could do to prevent it when they are there for a year at a time and multiple tours on top of that. Many don't even realise they have it, like an ache or pain you just learn to block out as you've gotten used to it.
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#69 Elara

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:45 AM

View PostLin731, on 23 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Quote

I don't see how any active military - at least anybody who starts out relatively sane - can NOT get PTSD considering where they have to go, the things they have to do, what they have to see and how they have to live while in active war zones.  That includes medical personnel stationed with them.

I hear ya on that one. I honestly don't know what you could do to prevent it when they are there for a year at a time and multiple tours on top of that. Many don't even realise they have it, like an ache or pain you just learn to block out as you've gotten used to it.

I actually think the stress would start during training. Imagine the Vietnam era, being drafted, basically ripped from your home and sent to train for the possibility of seeing action. It's got to be stressful enough when you volunteer to do this.

I have a friend (Lin, maybe you remember CEN?) who is (thankfully) retired from the military. I think he did 3 (or 4) tours in Afghanistan, and several other places over the past 30 years. He's never complained, and is very level headed, but I know it still gets to him sometimes, just from the things he has said over the years.
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#70 Lin731

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:02 PM

Quote

I actually think the stress would start during training. Imagine the Vietnam era, being drafted, basically ripped from your home and sent to train for the possibility of seeing action. It's got to be stressful enough when you volunteer to do this.

I have a friend (Lin, maybe you remember CEN?) who is (thankfully) retired from the military. I think he did 3 (or 4) tours in Afghanistan, and several other places over the past 30 years. He's never complained, and is very level headed, but I know it still gets to him sometimes, just from the things he has said over the years.

Yeah I remember Cen and I wouldn't wish that many tours on anyone. How is he doing these days?
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#71 Nonny

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

I don't want to start a new thread for something like this, but I gotta crow.  My new congressman, Dr Raul Ruiz, just told me that he was thinking of me when he requested the Veterans Committee for one of his assignments.   :happy:   He's an ER doctor, so he's also on the Health Committee.  Anyway, I can't think of anyone I'd want more than Raul Ruiz representing me in Congress, as a citizen, and as a veteran.   :happy: :happy:

Hundreds were expected at the event.  Hundreds and hundreds showed up.   :happy:   I'm not good in crowds, but when the local youth band Sizzle started playing Wooly Bully, I got into it and relaxed.   :D
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#72 Rhea

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:03 AM

View PostMark, on 23 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

I think the military places our people in combat or combat-like situations for far too long.
Agreed, absolutely. This war has gone on far too long, and because the military is all-volunteer, there are/were not enough troops to cover what needed to be covered. Multiple tours of duty with little time in between is worsening the inevitable PTSD. If they could keep the people coming off of rotation at home longer, that would help, I think. I know the military has a history of patching them up and sending them right back but then, they also have a history of inadequate treatment for PTSD as well (thank God they don't shoot men with PTSD who lose it while serving - hard to believe there was a time when that happpened).
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#73 DarthMarley

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:57 AM

What about non-military trauma sufferers?

Should we deny gun permits to abused women seeking to defend themselves over the fear their past suffering might spill over into an armed psychotic break?
Or do we let those who choose to arm themselves do so, balancing risks and comforts?
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#74 Lin731

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:56 PM

Quote

What about non-military trauma sufferers?

Should we deny gun permits to abused women seeking to defend themselves over the fear their past suffering might spill over into an armed psychotic break?
Or do we let those who choose to arm themselves do so, balancing risks and comforts?

Good question, I honestly don't know. Like so much having to do with mental and emotional issues, I think they are questions worth asking and trying to sort out. It seems ironic that we have been discussing this issue and what is in the headlines this week? The murder of two people (one a former navy seal) by a marine suffering PTSD. The navy seal was an expert sniper and died on a range he designed himself. So perhaps guns don't fix everything?

Saddest of all is if this man had recieved proper care (and is family DID make police aware of his erratic behavior because he got threatening to his father, who wanted to sell his guns because he was concerned about his son's erratic behavior). Once again, the warning signs were there and nothing was done (or perhaps could be done legally) to prevent this. Now we have 2 dead men and one who will spend the rest of his life in prison.
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#75 Nonny

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:08 PM

View PostLin731, on 05 February 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

The navy seal was an expert sniper and died on a range he designed himself. So perhaps guns don't fix everything?

That's the sad lesson I'm taking from it.   :(
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#76 Elara

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:25 PM

View PostLin731, on 24 January 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Yeah I remember Cen and I wouldn't wish that many tours on anyone. How is he doing these days?

Sorry Lin, thought I replied to this.

Anyway, Last I heard from him, CEN was trying to decide between going back to school, getting a job, or just going fishing every day. :D I don't know what he decided because I haven't heard from him in months. I'm guessing he is busy enjoying life about now. :)

And after reading about the Navy SEAL being shot, I'm hoping CEN is just out fishing and living a safe, quiet life.

Edited by Elara, 05 February 2013 - 10:28 PM.

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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

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#77 Lin731

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:24 AM

Hey Elara, I hope he's "gone fishing" too or found something that he truly loves to do and is in the midst of doing it.

Nonny, I wish things were like the old movies where the good guys always win and we knew exactly who was the good guy.
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#78 Nonny

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:01 AM

Lin, Amen to that!
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#79 JuststoppingBy

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

hi all, while doing a search online found your discussion and hope to jump in if possible.. my husband is a retired military vet, has PSTD, nightmares, generally has a good temper and very loving except that about every so often he has a meltdown and just loses it, i think frustration from work etc builds up .. he started seeing a psych and got put on meds and they do mellow him out somewhat, but he still has a meltdown every so often, usually directed at me, and we have a big blowout, he won't talk for days etc.. Anyway, he has been wanting to get guns for a while now, we went and took the gun course and it was there that they talked about the high suicide rate for people owning guns, so now i am starting to panic a little (thus the online search etc)   He does not hunt, he loves nature etc,he doesn't even fish anymore so the guns are just because he likes them and he would enjoy doing target shooting again and having them for personal protection. I am nervous, of course I think of the worst. He did comtemplate suicide a few times over the years he has said, even before we knew each other, so knowing this as well as his sometimes explosive behaviour, is really making me worry.  I think I am going to bring it up tonight but am very worried it is going to result in a really horrible fight. Any ideas or feedback on any of this? It is very easy to get guns here in our area, they leave it up to the person applying to be honest and he did not check off he has PSTD or depression etc. so they won't even know he has it so I'm sure he will likely get it.. help please!

#80 Balderdash

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostJuststoppingBy, on 04 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

hi all, while doing a search online found your discussion and hope to jump in if possible.. my husband is a retired military vet, has PSTD, nightmares, generally has a good temper and very loving except that about every so often he has a meltdown and just loses it, i think frustration from work etc builds up .. he started seeing a psych and got put on meds and they do mellow him out somewhat, but he still has a meltdown every so often, usually directed at me, and we have a big blowout, he won't talk for days etc.. Anyway, he has been wanting to get guns for a while now, we went and took the gun course and it was there that they talked about the high suicide rate for people owning guns, so now i am starting to panic a little (thus the online search etc)   He does not hunt, he loves nature etc,he doesn't even fish anymore so the guns are just because he likes them and he would enjoy doing target shooting again and having them for personal protection. I am nervous, of course I think of the worst. He did comtemplate suicide a few times over the years he has said, even before we knew each other, so knowing this as well as his sometimes explosive behaviour, is really making me worry.  I think I am going to bring it up tonight but am very worried it is going to result in a really horrible fight. Any ideas or feedback on any of this? It is very easy to get guns here in our area, they leave it up to the person applying to be honest and he did not check off he has PSTD or depression etc. so they won't even know he has it so I'm sure he will likely get it.. help please!

It sounds like it might be best to have the gun conversation now before you get them.  It sounds like it probably wouldn't be a good idea especially since he wasn't upfront about his PTSD and depression.  How would he take having this conversation?  Good luck!

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