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Hillary, should she?

2013 Hillary Elections Election 2016

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#21 Lin731

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

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I wish Biden were younger and not stuck in office, I like him so much and fear he won't be able to get any traction for 2016 because of Hillary.  For her, it's not like 2008 when she was touted as the "presumed nominee".  It was a media creation in 2008, and she still had many problems with her negatives.  All of that is changed.  She actually is the presumptive candidate.  Ask any Democrat.  Everyone is just waiting for her to decide.  

For Joe Biden, [who again I love and have voted for in primaries] the parade is going to pass him by if Hillary runs, and that is a shame.  He has had a long career of public service and deserves a shot.

You know, I really like him too. Many people rag on him as a liability but when they needed someone to negotiate, HE was the guy that got it done. They say he's gaffee prone, I say he tends to be a blunt, blue collar kinda guy and I personally like that. I'm so sick of the slick political BS we get fed on a daily basis from wealthy entitled politicians. Biden is who he is and he's comfortable with who he is.
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#22 Cait

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostLin731, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:


You know, I really like him too. Many people rag on him as a liability but when they needed someone to negotiate, HE was the guy that got it done. They say he's gaffee prone, I say he tends to be a blunt, blue collar kinda guy and I personally like that. I'm so sick of the slick political BS we get fed on a daily basis from wealthy entitled politicians. Biden is who he is and he's comfortable with who he is.

I love that he is blunt.  He does not edit himself, and it is, and always has been, refreshing in a politician.  I've seen pundits go crazy over stuff he says, and I just don't care if others think he made a gaffe.  I think he isn't in some political cookie cutter mold, where he walks and talks like every other gaffe-less politician.  He's Joe Biden.  And that's OK with me.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#23 Nonny

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostLin731, on 28 January 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

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But remember, the candidates who made the most brazenly offensive statements about rape, like Todd Akin, all lost what were otherwise highly winnable races, because their antediluvian sexism motivated women (and rational men) to go to the polls and vote against them. So I'd say the electoral power of women is undeniable now.

This is true but there's a big difference on the offensive scale between those rape comments and te sexism in general terms in this country (and I don't just speak about men here). Just as there are women who don't beleive in an acception for rape, there are also women who don't beleive a woman has the temperment to run the country. You had a black man with little experience running against a woman with more experience in just about every way, in a country that is known for it's racist views (some blatant and some unconsious)...Who won that nomination and how much trashing was done to her by members or her OWN party? There are many folks in this country that felt she had no business doing anything but taking on some President's wife cause, for her husbands term in office. There were many who said "If she wants to lead, than let her run for office" and many of those were outraged when she did run and won. I think the GOP would go after her to a vicious degree. The only reason they "liked" her for a while was to try and seem sympathic to Dem women who were ticked off at the shoddy way her own party treated her.

I was planning to support her if she ran again, but thanks for reminding me of why I didn't in 2008, and of all the belittling of my reasons, and throwing me off a mb, and the lies, and the accusations.  I had good reasons, personal reasons, and I shared my concerns, but everything I said and posted made me Sarah Palin's Evil Twin in the eyes of certain people.

As it happens, both Clintons have demonstrated qualities lately that can help me to get past my distaste for them, and I do admire the work she has done as Secretary of State, so I probably will support her if she runs, and I don't see anyone I like better in the running, but now I have a whole nother pile of bad memories to get past to do it.

I don't think I'll share the personal account of why Bill is impressing me lately.  I'll save that for some future shock and awe.
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#24 Nonny

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostCait, on 28 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

View PostLin731, on 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:


You know, I really like him too. Many people rag on him as a liability but when they needed someone to negotiate, HE was the guy that got it done. They say he's gaffee prone, I say he tends to be a blunt, blue collar kinda guy and I personally like that. I'm so sick of the slick political BS we get fed on a daily basis from wealthy entitled politicians. Biden is who he is and he's comfortable with who he is.

I love that he is blunt.  He does not edit himself, and it is, and always has been, refreshing in a politician.  I've seen pundits go crazy over stuff he says, and I just don't care if others think he made a gaffe.  I think he isn't in some political cookie cutter mold, where he walks and talks like every other gaffe-less politician.  He's Joe Biden.  And that's OK with me.

And with that, I wholeheartedly agree.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#25 Lin731

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:20 PM

Quote

I was planning to support her if she ran again, but thanks for reminding me of why I didn't in 2008, and of all the belittling of my reasons, and throwing me off a mb, and the lies, and the accusations.  I had good reasons, personal reasons, and I shared my concerns, but everything I said and posted made me Sarah Palin's Evil Twin in the eyes of certain people.

As it happens, both Clintons have demonstrated qualities lately that can help me to get past my distaste for them, and I do admire the work she has done as Secretary of State, so I probably will support her if she runs, and I don't see anyone I like better in the running, but now I have a whole nother pile of bad memories to get past to do it.

I don't think I'll share the personal account of why Bill is impressing me lately.  I'll save that for some future shock and awe.

Sorry Nonny, wasn't trying to bring up painful memories for you and my comments in no way were directed at you. I have memories of that nomination process as well and they were unpleasant too, alot of demonising for not jumping on the Obama bandwagon. So I do know what that's like.
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#26 Cait

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:08 PM

^ Agreed.  It was pretty bad if anyone even suggested Obama wasn't ready for the WH.  I remember it well, and, I remember how Hillary supporters were demonized.  Let's hope we don't have to encounter anything like it again.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#27 Nick

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:08 PM

View PostCait, on 28 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

For her, it's not like 2008 when she was touted as the "presumed nominee".  It was a media creation in 2008, and she still had many problems with her negatives.  All of that is changed.  She actually is the presumptive candidate.  Ask any Democrat.  Everyone is just waiting for her to decide.

At the risk of opening old wounds, she wasn't the presumptive candidate, she was the presumptuous candidate.  

I don't think she was ready in 2008.  She was crazy-prepared for running in a general election, and she forgot to adequately plan for a real primary challenge.  Her biggest failing in 2008 was walking in to that campaign and presuming she'd be the nominee without a fight.  She hadn't* adequately planned for a battle for the nomination.

I think the defeat taught her some good lessons that will make her a better POTUS, should she choose to run for the job.

I was a big Obama supporter in 2008, and again in 2012; but for 2016, there is nobody; no man, no woman--of any ethnicity--more qualified to be the President of the United States of America than Hillary Clinton.




Quote

For Joe Biden, [who again I love and have voted for in primaries] the parade is going to pass him by if Hillary runs, and that is a shame.  He has had a long career of public service and deserves a shot.

I have great respect for the man, and I truly think he'd make a great President...  But I just don't see him throwing his hat into the ring in 2016.  I think his plan is to retire once his term is served.

EDIT*wrote "had" meant "hadn't"

Edited by Nick, 29 January 2013 - 11:11 PM.


#28 Orpheus

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:40 AM

I'd be quite happy to see her run and win, but under the conditions posed in the OP, I'd say "No, she shouldn't run" -- if she had any doubts. Sadly, many candidates are too blinded by ambition to even entertain the question, but the OP asked what her correct action would be.

Age comes to us all. Even without that, she's been fighting her political fights for decades, and there would be no shame whatsoever in her recognizing that her energy, faculties, idealistic salient --or whatever-- had dulled. Indeed, recognizing and heeding that would speak highly of her. There would also be no shame in simply deciding that after a lifetime of service, she wanted to enjoy some years of citizenry while she could still fully enjoy them.

The presidential oath omits one key phrase, "without reservation", present in most Federal oaths (citizenship; military service; Federal offices requiring an oath, such as her former Senate seat), perhaps an imminent President is presumed to be above that particular doubt or perhaps the Founding Fathers realistically assessed (as I do) that essentially no President Elect, scant words from the top office after a national campaign, would have (or admit to, at least in that moment) reservations about their commitment to their duty/ability in that office -- and certainly wouldn't show up to admit them, though some candidates have privately admitted to reservations during their campaigns!

No, the correct time, the honorable time, the only PRACTICAL time to acknowledge such reservations is before or perhaps during a campaign. One shouldn't knowingly offer the voters an illusion when there is still time for them to choose a candidate who doesn't have such reservations.

I'd be happy to see her run and win, and I'm not sure who I'd stand in her stead, but to run to earn a place in the record books, to be pegmark in history, would be personally disgraceful.

The oath of office or any historical 'duty to the sisterhood' would be discharged in one brief moment, but the true purpose of the office would endure from 4-8 years. I was not quite the same person 4-8 years ago, were  you? I had no doubt of my imminent capacity, but if I did, it would've mattered.

As many great statespersons have proven, we are humans, individuals, mortals first.

#29 Cait

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:52 PM

^ What an excellent post Orph.  I tend to agree with you.  

As a citizen, I want her to run and win.  I do.  I think she would be a great President [and I mean that in an historical context].  NOT because she would break the glass ceiling for the sisterhood, but because there is no one more qualified to govern at this point in history. I just think she has the abilities to lead and govern, not just win an election [$ and popularity].

But does she have the time?

If I were her friend, I'd encourage her to retire.  Live her life.  Write a few books if she wanted to, etc.  Her influence doesn't have to wane just because she is not in public service if that is her desire.  I'd just want her out of the frying pan.  She has already given so much service to the country, and put up with far more from her naysayers.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#30 Omega

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

^I agree. Work until you can't. If you can't at 50, fine. If you can at 90, fine.

As for Hillary, though, I don't see her retiring in the sense of "sit on the couch," ever. It's just a question of what she a) thinks she's capable of doing at her age, and b) wants to do.

#31 Cait

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:57 PM

View PostOmega, on 30 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:


As for Hillary, though, I don't see her retiring in the sense of "sit on the couch," ever. It's just a question of what she a) thinks she's capable of doing at her age, and b) wants to do.

Yes, that's what I meant by "retire".  She can do whatever she wants.

On a personal note, I've always been very  VERY grateful that I am self-employed and can work as long as I can speak or type and my mind is clear, and I plan on doing just that.  I have been a fortunate person in that I work at what I love, so, I have no desire to retire in the traditional sense. I suppose, I'll just slow down a little.  LOL ;)

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#32 Lin731

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

I heard part of an interview with her on NPR and she has said she wants to write, to speak, to champion causes for young girls, she wants to work on the foundations they are involved in with Bill and Chelsea, that she wants off the fast track. Who knows, she may well decide she likes the freedom to NOT have to worry about every word she utters being used to tear her apart, That she likes the freedom to act without constraints on what she can and can't do. I half hope (for her own sake) that she does retire and enjoys doing whatever she wants. The other part of me would LOVE to see her elected president but only of she really wants it.
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#33 Cait

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

You know, there is an interesting development in this thread.  Almost everyone wants her to be President, and yet most of us want her to take care of herself first and foremost.  I say it is an interesting development, because I've never seen [or can't remember seeing] such a connection between a political leader and the voters.

Now I knwo she has her naysayers.  You'd have to have lived under a rock for the last rwo decades not to know it.  But, I find it interesting that we are so connected to her as a person, not just a pol.  I said it someplace recently [might have even been in this thread, I'm too lazy to go look], but she has certainly overcome the whole "connection" to the voters thing.  I can remember when she seemed so remote, cold even, and her reputation was reinforced by the loyal opposition [yes, that was snark].  There was a time that I wondered if I could ever vote for her.  Now, I SO want to vote for her, but not at the expense of her happiness if she wants off the roller coaster.

I can't remember EVER, EVER having that kind of feeling for a politician, and I've been a political animal since I was 15.

I think it's interesting.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#34 Orpheus

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:14 PM

I remember feeling that way about Jimmy Carter, who aged very visibly over the course of his term. Admittedly, I'd met him (my family still stays in touch; they last visited him in Plains a few years ago), but to be honest, that was no part of my thinking. I was just shocked by the change.

#35 Lin731

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:28 PM

Poor Jimmy Carter, such an intelligent, dedicated, hard working man and sooooooooooooo ill suited to the White House and look what he's done since leaving office. I think you can tell alot about a former President by what he does AFTER he leaves office. Does he work to benefit himself, does he simply fade off into retirement or does he work to benefit others.
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#36 Nick

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:23 PM

View PostLin731, on 30 January 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Poor Jimmy Carter, such an intelligent, dedicated, hard working man and sooooooooooooo ill suited to the White House and look what he's done since leaving office. I think you can tell alot about a former President by what he does AFTER he leaves office. Does he work to benefit himself, does he simply fade off into retirement or does he work to benefit others.

He didn't work well as a president, but he's the best ex-president we've ever had (that comes to mind anyway).

I don't think he's working to benefit himself or others in particular.  He's working to work.  Wouldn't you?  What is this whole "retirement" thing anyway?  Whether his interest is in politics or plants, or everything in between--he still needs a reason to get up in the morning.  Why retire and be bored?  Pursue some interests, that's what it's all about.

Edited by Nick, 30 January 2013 - 11:24 PM.


#37 Themis

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:28 PM

View PostCait, on 30 January 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

You know, there is an interesting development in this thread.  Almost everyone wants her to be President, and yet most of us want her to take care of herself first and foremost.  I say it is an interesting development, because I've never seen [or can't remember seeing] such a connection between a political leader and the voters.

Maybe it's a combination of her age and her recent health scare?
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#38 Tricia

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:20 AM

I know that I would support Hillary no matter what she decides to do next.  

Be that another run for President or writing books, doing lectures, or running those previously mentioned foundations. As long as she is happy and content with the life she chooses for herself.

I just wish there were someone out there who I felt could do as good of a job as POTUS as I think she could.

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