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How many good guys with guns will it take to stop a bad guy?

Navy SEAL sniper gun violence 2nd amendment 2013 Constitution Gun Control

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#1 Nonny

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:13 PM

http://www.dailykos....-guy-with-a-gun
Not even a gun range had enough good guys with a gun to stop one bad guy with a gun

Quote

... One of the victims is reportedly former Navy SEAL and best-selling author Chris Kyle.
ABC affiliate WFAA-TV in Dallas reported that three sources said Kyle, author of the New York Times bestselling book, "American Sniper," and a neighbor of his were shot while helping a soldier who is recovering from post traumatic stress syndrome at a gun range in Glen Rose....


Unless I am very mistaken, Chris Kyle was the greatest Navy sniper of all time.  The killer was picked up when he crashed into a police car, but he got away first.  More information is needed, of course, but I'd like to know how many people were in that gun range when this happened.
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#2 Tricia

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:24 PM

Does it really matter how many people were at that gun range?

You expect to see people walking around with guns at a gun range. You expect to hear gunshots so nothing out of the ordinary to react to.  And per the following linked article it was at close range so likely nothing to react to. edited to add...nothing like one of the victims running or a fight etc.

Yes, it would be interesting to know how many people were there at the time....but short of a loud argument between the men or some actions to give an indication that this would turn deadly, I don't think you can prevent or anticipate a shooting anymore or react to it any differently just because people are armed there.  Or catch the shooter any sooner.  

It's not expected that someone would do something like this at a shooting range anymore than anywhere else. Plus you do wear ear plugs or ear muffs etc to protect your hearing too...so that would also keep people from reacting as quickly as you would think.  (plus I'm not sure how that gun range is laid out because some do have a separation/barrier where you can't see the others beside you... in other words not open view at all)

http://news.yahoo.co...-060103082.html

Quote

The man accused of gunning down former U.S. Navy SEAL Chris Kyle, a prominent military sniper, and a second man at a Texas shooting range has been arraigned on two counts of capital murder, the Texas Department of Public Safety said on Sunday.
Eddie Ray Routh, 25, was accused of killing Kyle, 38, and Chad Littlefield, 35, a neighbor of Kyle, on Saturday afternoon at the Rough Creek Lodge, about 50 miles southwest of Fort Worth, the department said.

"They were shot at close range," said department spokesman Sergeant Lonny Haschel said.

Kyle, considered one of America's deadliest snipers after killing 160 people during his career as U.S. Navy SEAL sniper, wrote the book "American Sniper" about his military service from 1999 to 2009.

Routh, described in local media reports as a former Marine who suffered from post traumatic stress syndrome (PTSD), was arrested at his Lancaster, Texas home several hours after the shooting, having led police on a chase in his pickup truck.

"He was taken into custody after a brief pursuit," Haschel said.

According to a posting on a website run by members of the Special Operations Forces community, Kyle had been volunteering his time to help Marine Corps veterans suffering from PTSD and mentoring them.

"Part of this process involved taking these veterans to the range," said the posting on SOFREP.com.

WFAA-TV in Dallas-Fort Worth reported that the two men had taken Routh to the shooting range for the day to help him deal with his PTSD.

I don't know how well the victims knew this man or if they got along or what other help if any he was getting for his PSTD. But this was not some random shooter incident in a place that you don't expect to see guns or hear gunshots, in fact was a place where that was the norm and not something that would send others into a defensive posture or in pursuit because of gunshots.

Edited by Tricia, 03 February 2013 - 03:55 PM.

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#3 Nonny

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:44 PM

So it was the guy he was trying to help.  How sad.  The short item I read had few details.  My point is one of the best shots in the entire military was brought down, and no matter how many good guys were there, nobody got the bad guy.  This exposes a serious flaw in the theory that the more weapons, the better chance of defending yourself.  Location counts.
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#4 Nonny

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:13 PM

http://www.statesman...avy-seal/nWD97/
A glance at the life of Chris Kyle, ex-Navy SEAL


Quote

STEPHENVILLE, Texas —
Decorated Iraq war veteran Chris Kyle, a former Navy SEAL and "American Sniper" author, was shot and killed at a Central Texas gun range on Saturday. Here's the legacy he leaves behind:
NAVY RECORD
Kyle enlisted in the Navy in February 1999 and was discharged on November 2009, military records show. During that time, he served four tours in Iraq received 14 different awards and decorations, including two Silver Stars, five Bronze Stars with Valor, and two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals.
"I didn't do it for the money or the awards. I did it because I felt like it was something that needed to be done and it was honorable. I loved the guys," Kyle told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram in 2012.
___
NICKNAMED 'THE DEVIL'
Kyle wrote a best-selling book published in January 2012 detailing his 150-plus kills of Iraqi insurgents from 1999 to 2009. Kyle said in the book that insurgents had put a $20,000 bounty on his head. The website for his security training company said the Iraqis feared him so much they nicknamed him al-Shaitan, or "The Devil."
___
LOSS OF A HERO
Kyle's nonprofit, FITCO Cares, provides at-home fitness equipment for emotionally and physically wounded veterans. On Sunday, the organization's website read, "The Loss of a Hero," and said the foundation "will always carry the torch" for the military men and women....

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#5 EChatty

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

That is a tragedy, plain and simple. I feel badly for him and his family. :cry:

#6 gsmonks

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:26 PM

Q-How many good guys with guns will it take to stop a bad guy?

A- None. You can't stop people from doing bad things.
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#7 Tricia

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:01 AM

Not so sure that there were many if any good guys with guns around at the time per this link--

http://news.yahoo.co...-081539440.html

Quote

Authorities say the three men arrived at the Rough Creek Lodge southwest of Fort Worth around 3:15 p.m. Saturday. A hunting guide discovered the bodies of Kyle and Littlefield around 5 p.m. and called 911.

and a little about Chad Litlefield who was also killed--(the man named Cox speaking in thes article is the director of Kyle's foundation FITCO)

Quote

Littlefield, a 35-year-old friend and neighbor, was Kyle's "workout buddy," and also volunteered his time to work with veterans, Cox said. He was married and had children as well.

"He's a very gentle, sweet-hearted man, just a great man, kind of quiet," Cox said of Littlefield. "He just really cared. ... He wanted to do whatever he could to help veterans and help see that vision of serving others that Chris had. He shared that vision with all of us. He was a great man."

Cox said he understood that Kyle and Littlefield were helping Routh work through his own PTSD, but that he did not know how they came into contact. He said it was not a FITCO session.

and a quote about Chris Kyle that makes me cry

Quote

"He (Kyle) didn't have any fear at all as far as working with an extreme case," Cox said. "Just like in combat he would take it on head on and do whatever he could to give these guys assistance. There was no fear in helping anyone that may have an extreme case. He was willing to help anyone in need."


Definintely a tragedy here and I feel deeply saddened for all involved.

(btw this made me go back and read the recent thread here-- as relates to PTSD and guns)

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#8 DarthMarley

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostNonny, on 03 February 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

So it was the guy he was trying to help.  How sad.  The short item I read had few details.  My point is one of the best shots in the entire military was brought down, and no matter how many good guys were there, nobody got the bad guy.  This exposes a serious flaw in the theory that the more weapons, the better chance of defending yourself.  Location counts.

It does introduce a qualifier to the claim that having weapons prevents people with weapons going haywire.

I don't really thing this is a "gotcha" kind of flaw though.
Just like a mental break at the gun range can kill, the green on blue attacks in Afghanistan expose the same risks.

Risk is location dependent.

As you phrased it; "the more weapons, the better chance of defending yourself" still holds true. You have a better chance of defending yourself. Even unarmed one still has some chance of defending themself. I suspect that the fallen sniper also had extensive hand to hand training, including training on disarming opponents.
Do we also suggest that unarmed combat training is ineffective and should be abandoned?
"It is not who is right, but what is right that is of importance."

#9 Nonny

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:01 PM

View PostDarthMarley, on 05 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

As you phrased it; "the more weapons, the better chance of defending yourself" still holds true. You have a better chance of defending yourself. Even unarmed one still has some chance of defending themself. I suspect that the fallen sniper also had extensive hand to hand training, including training on disarming opponents.
Do we also suggest that unarmed combat training is ineffective and should be abandoned?

I'm confused here.  Is this a suggestion that I have suggested that some other weapon or perhaps all weapons must be abandoned?  If anything I have posted seems to carry that particular message, please provide a link, because I'd like to see it.

The fallen sniper was a Navy SEAL.  Obviously he made it through BUD/S.  Since the man who shot him probably took him by surprise, I'd guess that he wasn't aware that he was facing an opponent.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#10 Nonny

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:04 PM

http://www.military....html?ESRC=eb.nl
MOH Recipient Slams Ron Paul Over Kyle Tweet

Quote

Medal of Honor recipient Dakota Meyer criticized former Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul on Twitter Monday night after Paul posted a controversial tweet about former Navy SEAL sniper Chris Kyle, who was killed Saturday at a Texas gun range.
Meyer sent his tweet in response to one by Paul that read: “Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword." Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense.”
Meyer tweeted: “Hey @ronpaul have you lost you mind? That sword protected your freedom. Guess since I live by it I deserve to get murdered as well? #wow.”
Meyer, a former Marine sergeant, is one of three living recipients of the Medal of Honor for service in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He is credited with saving 13 American and 23 Afghan soldiers’ lives in a firefight in Afghanistan in 2009.
Kyle, a former SEAL and author of “American Sniper,” left the Navy in 2009 after 10 years of service. He completed four deployments to Iraq and is credited with killing 160 enemy combatants. He received two Silver Stars, five Bronze Stars for valor and two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals....


Once again, Ron Paul shows what a class act he is not.   :sarcasm:
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#11 Nonny

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:28 PM

And while I'm at it, how about weapons that look like toys?  Are they really necessary?  AFAIC the only bad guy in this tragedy is the gun maker:
3-year-old S.C. boy killed after mistaking pink handgun for toy

Quote



Well, that pathetic marketing ploy sure worked.   :mad:   Poor little guy, and poor little traumatized sister.   :(  

The article continues.  Remember this story from a while back?  I'm pretty sure we discussed it here.

Quote


I worry about a gun in the hands of someone like this in any circumstance.   :fear:
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#12 DarthMarley

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:49 PM

View PostNonny, on 05 February 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

View PostDarthMarley, on 05 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

As you phrased it; "the more weapons, the better chance of defending yourself" still holds true. You have a better chance of defending yourself. Even unarmed one still has some chance of defending themself. I suspect that the fallen sniper also had extensive hand to hand training, including training on disarming opponents.
Do we also suggest that unarmed combat training is ineffective and should be abandoned?

I'm confused here.  Is this a suggestion that I have suggested that some other weapon or perhaps all weapons must be abandoned?  If anything I have posted seems to carry that particular message, please provide a link, because I'd like to see it.

The fallen sniper was a Navy SEAL.  Obviously he made it through BUD/S.  Since the man who shot him probably took him by surprise, I'd guess that he wasn't aware that he was facing an opponent.

Tiresome.

You did suggest that there was a serious flaw in a particular argument.
I commented about that.
So, rather than retort on the nature of that flaw, and about how that applies to other arguements, you want to inssit you didn't suggest that we ban guns, so to hell with my observation.
Classy.
"It is not who is right, but what is right that is of importance."

#13 Nonny

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:29 AM

View PostDarthMarley, on 05 February 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on 05 February 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

View PostDarthMarley, on 05 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

As you phrased it; "the more weapons, the better chance of defending yourself" still holds true. You have a better chance of defending yourself. Even unarmed one still has some chance of defending themself. I suspect that the fallen sniper also had extensive hand to hand training, including training on disarming opponents.
Do we also suggest that unarmed combat training is ineffective and should be abandoned?

I'm confused here.  Is this a suggestion that I have suggested that some other weapon or perhaps all weapons must be abandoned?  If anything I have posted seems to carry that particular message, please provide a link, because I'd like to see it.

The fallen sniper was a Navy SEAL.  Obviously he made it through BUD/S.  Since the man who shot him probably took him by surprise, I'd guess that he wasn't aware that he was facing an opponent.

Tiresome.

You did suggest that there was a serious flaw in a particular argument.
I commented about that.

I'm still not seeing a link.

Quote

So, rather than retort on the nature of that flaw, and about how that applies to other arguements, you want to inssit you didn't suggest that we ban guns, so to hell with my observation.
Classy.

Since I didn't make any such suggestion, it would be ludicrous of me to want to do anything about it.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#14 Lin731

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:39 AM

DarthMarley,
Nonny isn't for banning guns, the PTSD thread makes that clear (I think you posted in it didn't you)? As to the flaw argument...I beleive it is flawed. Just because you carry a weapon, doen't mean you can pick off someone on a killing spree. Police are trained to protect and defend and they miss their targets too but at least they have the training to know when NOT to fire. A local school in my area hired an retired police officer to provide security to their school. What happened? He left his weapon in a BATHROOM at the school, and we're talking about arming teachers and janitors???? Had his weapon been loaded (he claims it wasn't but I think that's BS because what is the point if the gun ISN'T loaded), how exactly are you ready to provide protection with an unloaded gun? Fortunately a bus driver happened to find it a few minutes later.

On another point, my co-workers father bought his grandson a toy gun that according to my co-worker, looks exactly like a real gun, THAT is a problem as much as making REAL weapons look like toys.
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#15 Nonny

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:49 PM

http://www.military....01075741&rank=7
Slayings Highlight Risk of 'Gun Therapy' for Vets

Quote

DALLAS -- Chris Kyle, reputed to be the deadliest sniper in American military history, often took veterans out shooting as a way to ease the trauma of war. Taking aim at a target, he once wrote, would help coax them back into normal, everyday life with a familiar, comforting activity.
But his death at a North Texas shooting range -- allegedly at the hands of a troubled Iraq War veteran he was trying to assist -- has highlighted the potential dangers of the practice.
Former soldiers and others familiar with their struggles say shooting a gun can sometimes be as therapeutic as playing with a dog or riding a horse. Psychiatrists wonder, though, whether the smell of the gunpowder and the crack of gunfire can trigger unpredictable responses, particularly in someone suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder or other illnesses that aren't immediately obvious.
"You have to be very careful with doing those kinds of treatment," said Dr. Charles Marmar, chairman of the psychiatry department at New York University's Langone Medical Center. "People have to be well prepared for them."
"But obviously you would not take a person who was highly unstable and give them access to weapons," added Marmar, who said he wasn't commenting on the suspected shooter's mental state. "That's very different."
Paul Rieckhoff, founder of the advocacy group Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, said he has heard of exposure to weapons being helpful to some veterans who weren't keen on meeting with a psychiatrist or undergoing therapy sessions.
"These types of programs can often be an on-ramp for people who won't go to any other type of program," Rieckhoff said. "Anything that is connected to the military culture is an easier bridge to cross."..
Gunfire can have unpredictable consequences for someone struggling with the aftermath of war, said Dr. Harry Croft, a San Antonio psychiatrist who has worked with veterans suffering from PTSD.
"The smell of the gunpowder, the flash from the gun, the sight, the sound," Croft said. "All of that can trigger a response ... that the person's not aware of."
Croft said he considered gun therapy a "bad idea in the main," although he acknowledged that target shooting could be a welcome diversion for some people. He also pointed to the high rate of veteran suicides -- estimated at about 22 a day.
"I believe that until treatment occurs, being around guns is probably not a good idea," Croft said.
Rieckhoff said he was worried about veterans' illnesses being painted with a broad brush after Kyle's death, adding that more research and more programs to treat veterans were necessary. Guns might be a part of that discussion, he added, but were neither a panacea nor a huge danger.
"We're not going to just start handing out guns to everybody and say, `Hey, this is going to help you with PTSD,' any more than we would hand out dogs or medication," Rieckhoff said.

This shooting might just come down to lack of impulse control.   :(
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#16 Nonny

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:27 AM

A demonstration of two shots per second:


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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#17 Nonny

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 07:03 AM

Suspect in Botched Shooting Bought Gun Legally Despite Mental Illness

http://www.nytimes.c...ness.html?_r=2

Quote

... Alice Boland, 28, who was charged in 2005 with threatening to assassinate President George W. Bush and members of Congress as she waited in line at U.S. Customs, is again charged with plotting a violent attack. On Monday, after pacing in front of the school gates during car pool and visibly swinging a gun, she tried to shoot two faculty members: the director of the high school, Mary Schweers, and an English teacher, Chris Hughes.

The police charged Ms. Boland with attempted murder and unlawful carrying of a firearm. The only thing that stopped her, they said, was that she did not realize the gun was locked.
“We were very fortunate she did not know how to take the lock off, or this could have been a tragedy,” said Earl Woodham, a spokesman in Charlotte for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
The authorities are investigating whether Ms. Boland was required to disclose her history of mental illness when she bought the gun. A small firearms store in Walterboro, 50 miles from Charleston, sold her the Taurus PT-22 pistol on Feb. 1. She filled out a federal background check form and was approved....

I'm hoping that years from now some other target won't go down under a hail of bullets because she learned how to actually fire the gun.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot



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