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Godzilla Heisei Films

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#1 Virgil Vox

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:27 AM

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So I have started on the Heisei era of Godzilla films now since I have finished with the Millennium films. So far I've watched Godzilla 1985, Godzilla Vs. Biollante, and Godzilla Vs. King Ghidorah. I'm waitng on the DVDs to arrive for the other films so I can finish watching the series.

I liked Godzilla 1985. I know that it's changed quite a bit from the origina form but it's all I have since I don't think the original Japanese version is available in the States.

My worst fear was the dubbing but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as I thought it would be. It wasn't as distracting as I remember it being from my childhood. So that's a plus for the film.

This was a good way to re-introduce Godzilla. The original happened, but that's it. This is Godzilla's first appearance since he ravaged Tokyo in 1954. They wisely decided to do a slow build-up and wait to show off Godzilla. It creates some nice tension, even for me. I was curious what this Godzilla suit would look like. I wasn't disappointed. Godzilla looks good in this movie.

The characters are interesting, if a little one-dimensional. From what I can tell, a few scenes were cut that might have added some more meat on the bones to the cast. I did like Raymond Burr. He's a good actor, and he lent his scenes so much needed seriousness. He reminded me of Shinoda from Godzilla 2000. Burr's character said that Godzilla shouldn't be attacked because it would only make him angry and cause even more destruction.

The destruction scenes were well done. Godzilla's fight against the Super X was executed quite well. I also liked the scenes with Goro and Naoko trying to get out of the crumbling building as Godzilla and the Super X fight. Most of the time the human characters aren't in immediate danger from the battles raging between Godzilla and his foes.

Not sure how I like the idea of Godzilla having a bird brain and being led to a volcano with what is essentially a giant bird call but it is a good way to get rid of Godzilla. Just throw the lug into a volcano.

Even before I read about the changes done to the film, something felt off about the scene where the Russian officer launches the nuke. It seemed more like he was trying to stop the launch, not start it. Which is what was originally intended, but the American version makes the Russians the evil villains while the Americans save the day by destroying the Russian's nuke. I wonder if it actually was the Americans in the original who destroyed the nuclear missile.

While I would like to see the original Japanese version with sub-titles, Godzilla 1985 is a decent film and does a good job of bringing Godzilla back.
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#2 G-man

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:48 AM

Actually, there is a DVD Release with the Japanese version of that film (Return of Gozilla, IIRC) ... albeit, we lose Bambi Meets Godzilla short as a lead in to the film :( And you are right, in that version the Russians were first ordered to "stand-down" which the guy did, then during the battle in the harbor a short occurred which set events into motion which the Russian desperately tried to stop.

For myself, I liked the touch that there were these giant copepods(rw?) that seemingly ride on Godzilla's hide and occasionally fall off, but this was an idea that was quickly abandoned save for Cloverfield where they felt it necessary for the humans to face an immediate personal terror rather than simply have to workaround a rampaging giant monster.

Admittedly, the Japanese version is a bit more deliberately paced than the American one.

As for the ultra-sonics and the idea of conditioned reflexes, if we accept Godzilla as a critter as opposed to the Divine Beast of the Apocalypse, this actually kind of works.  Albeit, it does open the door to as a G-Control mechanism, however this development is ignored in the subsequent films as emphasis is placed on battling Godzilla as opposed to effecting some kind of control over him.

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#3 Christopher

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:43 PM

One thing I'm very unclear on about the Heisei continuity is whether the Godzilla featured there is a second member of the species, separate from the one killed in 1954 (as in the original continuity or the Kiryu films), or the original one, somehow regenerated from his seemingly quite final fate (as in Megaguirus and GMK). The origin story offered in Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah treats Godzilla as a singular, unique creation, but there's a reference in Destoroyah to the Oxygen Destroyer killing the original Godzilla, implying that the Heisei Godzilla is a new one. I'm wondering what The Return of Godzilla has to say about that, although I don't trust the 1985 dub to be accurate.


View PostG-man, on 26 April 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

As for the ultra-sonics and the idea of conditioned reflexes, if we accept Godzilla as a critter as opposed to the Divine Beast of the Apocalypse, this actually kind of works.

As I pointed out before, it's Western thinking to define that as a choice between opposites. To the Japanese mindset, there is no "as opposed to" -- they're both true simultaneously. The supernatural is not distinct and foreign from everyday nature, but is interwoven with it inseparably. A kaiju can be both an animal and a spiritual force.

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Albeit, it does open the door to as a G-Control mechanism, however this development is ignored in the subsequent films as emphasis is placed on battling Godzilla as opposed to effecting some kind of control over him.

Not for the first time. The first sequel, 1955's Godzilla Raids Again, established that the reason Godzilla had attacked Tokyo in the first film was because his species was attracted to and enraged by bright lights. So in GRA, the military was able to divert the second Godzilla from populated areas by using flares. But that tactic was never seen again.
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#4 Virgil Vox

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:52 PM

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Godzilla Vs. Biollante is a hard film to review. On one hand, it is kind of a bad movie with a confusing plot, some bad acting, and bad editing. On the other hand, the filmmakers tried to keep things interesting even when Godzilla wasn't rampaging all over the place. In the end, I enjoyed the movie even if I didn't always understand what the hell was going on.

It starts right after Godzilla's attack from the previous movie. Japanese soldiers are doing a clean-up job. They come across some Godzilla tissue. However, some Americans working for the Bio-Major corporation attack the soldiers and steal the tissue. They are in turn attacked by an assassin named SSS9 who is working for a Saradian company. He takes the tissues back to Saradia where a Japanese scientist is going to use the tissue to create plants that can grow in the desert. However, the lab containing the Godzilla samples is blown up (I'm guessing by Bio-Major) and the scientist's daughter is killed.

Years later, the scientist, Dr. Shiragami, is back in Japan and for some reason believe roses have thoughts or a soul or something. I don't know. He has young psychic Miki try and detect life in his roses but she doesn't. Miki's teacher or fellow worker or I don't know what Asuka also works at the psychic institute. She is dating Kirishima, a scientist who is thinking about moving to America. Asuka's father runs a major corporation that isn't entirely on the up and up and are creating Anti-Nuclear Energy Bacteria. Asuka's father wants Kirishima to work for them. At the same time it seems like Godzilla might be waking up. Lt. Goro Gondo who is part of a Godzilla unti has Miki fly over the volcano and she says that yes Godzilla is waking up. Asuka's father has Godzilla tissue and needs it to make the ANEB work. He wants Shirigami to do the work. The scientist agrees, but only if he gets access to the Godzilla cells at his home for a week. For whatever reason, he has decided to combine the Godzilla cells with that of his daughter's DNA and a rose. I honestly have no idea why.

Two Bio-Major operatives are staking out the mad doctor, and SSS9 is staking them out. They all converge one night on Shirigami's lab and are attacked by plant vines. One Bio-Major guy is killed but the other gets away, as does SSS9. Later, Bio-Major plants explosives in the volcano and threatens to unleash Godzilla unless the Japanese give them ANEB. The government relents, and trades ANEB to the surviving Bio-Major operative. However, SSS9 shows up, kills the operative, and steals the ANEB. The explosives go off, and Godzilla is free to go on a rampage. For some reason, the young Major Kuroki is put in charge of the operation to stop Godzilla, which includes the new Super X-2. At the same time, the new creature Biollante emerges and Godzilla is drawn to it because it was created with his DNA. Oh, and Miki tries to use her psychic powers to stop Godzilla.

Whew. Okay, I put in that long summary just to show how all over the place this movie is. There are two different terrorist groups(though at least three or four different names are used to describe them), a mad scientist who creates a giant monster with his daughter's DNA just because, a young psychic girl who is attuned to Godzilla, at least two different anti-Godzilla units, and a giant rose monster.

Honestly though, Biollante is a pretty cool monster. She is different, that's for sure. The first fight between Godzilla and Biollante is quite well done. The night setting, in a mist covered lake, lends the affair a horror movie vibe. Biollante's second form is also well done, and it was a very cool effect when it actually charge Godzilla with all of its tentacles waving.

The Super X-2 is a good follow up to the first. This time it's remote controlled so no one gets hurt. It has a mirror reflector that shoots Godzilla's blasts back at him. I liked the sequence where it first engages Godzilla in the ocean. There were some good shots as the X-2 sweeps all around Godzilla. I do have to ask what is with the Japanese making these awesome weapons that, once damaged, can never be repaired again? Once the mirror gets melted they say it's impossible to fix it. Same with MechaGodzilla's Zero-G weapon from Godzilla Against MechaGodzilla. Once it was damaged they couldn't replace it. What's the point of having cool toys if you don't know have to fix them?

I give the film credit for at least making the non-kaiju scenes interesting. There is just so much going on it's hard to get bored. It also helps that I liked the characters. Goro is a pretty cool dude and goes out in style. While it makes no sense that someone as young as Kuroki is in charge of defeating Godzilla he's actually pretty good at it. Miki isn't annoying, and her psychic powers are useful. Plus she becomes a recurring character, something of an oddity for the Godzilla movies.

From what I can gather Godzilla Vs. Biollante isn't a popular Godzilla movie and I can understand why. However, I enjoyed it despite its flaws.

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Actually, there is a DVD Release with the Japanese version of that film (Return of Gozilla, IIRC) ... albeit, we lose Bambi Meets Godzilla short as a lead in to the film :(

Really? I looked on Amazon and eBay and all I can find are copies that aren't playable in Region 1. Also, that Bambi short was strange but funny.

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For myself, I liked the touch that there were these giant copepods(rw?) that seemingly ride on Godzilla's hide and occasionally fall off, but this was an idea that was quickly abandoned save for Cloverfield where they felt it necessary for the humans to face an immediate personal terror rather than simply have to workaround a rampaging giant monster.

I liked that idea too, and it made for a good opening sequence. I was confused at first as to why the humans were dead but the boat was intact. Godzilla usually isn't into the subtle approach. Then of course it's revealed to be that smaller creature. I liked the small Clovers in Cloverfield. They did add more suspense to the movie.

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One thing I'm very unclear on about the Heisei continuity is whether the Godzilla featured there is a second member of the species, separate from the one killed in 1954 (as in the original continuity or the Kiryu films), or the original one, somehow regenerated from his seemingly quite final fate (as in Megaguirus and GMK). The origin story offered in Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah treats Godzilla as a singular, unique creation, but there's a reference in Destoroyah to the Oxygen Destroyer killing the original Godzilla, implying that the Heisei Godzilla is a new one. I'm wondering what The Return of Godzilla has to say about that, although I don't trust the 1985 dub to be accurate.

Huh. Weird that they would treat it as the original Godzilla and then apparently retcon it later as a newer one. I always just assumed it was the original Godzilla from the first film.

Edited by Virgil Vox, 26 April 2013 - 10:52 PM.

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#5 Christopher

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:52 AM

^Well, the ending of the original film showed Godzilla literally disintegrating to nothing. The Kiryu films retconned it by having his skeleton survive but still made it clear that the "current" Godzilla was a second member of the species. Whereas the first three Millennium films seem to be built around variations on the assumption that if any part of Godzilla survives, the whole creature can regenerate eventually. (2000 introduces the "Organizer G-1" cells that let him regenerate; Megaguirus has a line about how they have to destroy him totally "this time"; and GMK explicitly treats it as the returned original, while its ending reinforces the "regenerate from any surviving part" idea.)

But as I said, the Heisei films send mixed messages about the origin of their Godzilla, and so does the info I've been able to find online about The Return of Godzilla. I'd like to find out what TRoG actually said on the issue, if anything. There's no guarantee that the English dub would translate it faithfully, but I'm desperate for any information I can get on this point.

(Basically, of the seven distinct Toho film continuities, we have two -- Showa and Kiryu -- where the current Godzilla is unambiguously a different individual from the one that emerged in '54; two -- Megaguirus and GMK -- where the current Godzilla is clearly the original; and three -- Heisei, 2000, and Final Wars -- that are ambiguous as far as I can tell. I'm inclined to put 2000 in the "original Godzilla" category because of the Organizer cells, and to put Final Wars in the "second Godzilla" category because in many ways it's a remixed Showa continuity. But I just don't know which way to go with Heisei because of the conflicting signals.)

Edited by Christopher, 27 April 2013 - 08:57 AM.

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#6 Virgil Vox

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:56 PM

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So I'm probably going to come off as a hypocrite because I enjoyed Biollante even though it had a mess of a plot, but here the plot really took away my enjoyment of the movie. It made my head hurt. The time travel is nonsensical and the villains' plan was way too complicated for what they were trying to accomplish.

Why did the villains need Miki, Terasawa, or the professor to go with them? They did nothing except say that the dinosaur may be Godzilla. Plus, those three saw the Dorats and it didn't take them long to figure out that the Dorats were King Ghidorah. So why bother with those three? Why bother pretending to be good guys at all? Why not just do everything they did except without showing themselves? And why not just kill Godzilla? They acted like the dino was fated to become Godzilla. All they had to do was kill it when it was a dino. Problem solved.

Also, how did Emmy not know what her partners were going to do? She acted completely shocked when they used King Ghidorah to attack Japan. What did she think they were up to? She knew that they were lying about the future of Japan. She knew the Dorats would mutate. How could she be that dumb? Don't even get me started on the time travel. They erase Godzilla, but everyone remembers him and his rampages in the past still seem to have happened. Okay. Oh, and why was everyone acting like the old Godzilla was such a savior of mankind? The military guy thought the Godzilla dino saved his soldiers on the island because he was on their side when the dino just attacked the Americans because they attacked him. Everyone also said that this new Godzilla was bigger and meaner and wasn't a friend. When was the old Godzilla a friend. He attacked Tokyo in 1954(well, him or one of his species), attacked again in 1985, then attacked again when he was released from the volcano. These characters obviously haven't seen the same movies we have.

Okay, I'm done complaining. Despite all those problems, the movie does get good once Godzilla finally shows up an hour into it. I like King Ghidorah a lot and he doesn't disappoint here. Mecha-King Ghidorah was pretty awesome as well. The fights between Ghidorah and Godzilla were well done.

I did like the origin for Godzilla. He was just a left-over dinosaur in the wrong place at the wrong time. And apparently he's always fated to become Godzilla because even when he's transported into the middle of nowhere he still manages to get mutated by radiation.

So Miki returns. Here she's shown to be a capable young woman whereas in Biollante she came across more as a student and fairly young. She doesn't have a huge role but it's nice to see at least one character come back from a previous movie. Oh, and did anyone else get the feeling that the movie was setting up a romance between Terasawa and Emmy? Because it felt that way and then all of a suddent we learn the two are related. Did not see that coming.

This movie is a mixed bag and the plot really takes away from my enjoyment. That, and the fact that it takes way too long for King Ghidorah and Godzilla to show up. But once they do the movie becomes much better. Hopefully my DVDs will arrive soon and I can continue the Heisei series.
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#7 Christopher

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:51 AM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 27 April 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

So I'm probably going to come off as a hypocrite because I enjoyed Biollante even though it had a mess of a plot, but here the plot really took away my enjoyment of the movie. It made my head hurt. The time travel is nonsensical and the villains' plan was way too complicated for what they were trying to accomplish.

No, you're perfectly justified. There are huge problems with the plot of this movie.


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Why did the villains need Miki, Terasawa, or the professor to go with them? They did nothing except say that the dinosaur may be Godzilla.

I think that was the point. They needed confirmation that they'd found the actual proto-Godzilla, that the professor's theory of Godzilla's origin was correct.


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Oh, and why was everyone acting like the old Godzilla was such a savior of mankind? The military guy thought the Godzilla dino saved his soldiers on the island because he was on their side when the dino just attacked the Americans because they attacked him. Everyone also said that this new Godzilla was bigger and meaner and wasn't a friend. When was the old Godzilla a friend. He attacked Tokyo in 1954(well, him or one of his species), attacked again in 1985, then attacked again when he was released from the volcano. These characters obviously haven't seen the same movies we have.

Indeed. The point of the Heisei series was to make Godzilla a villain again, to erase the '60s/'70s continuity where he'd become a campy superhero and Gamera-like friend to humanity. So this movie that reverts to the old view of (the original) Godzilla as the traditional protector of Japan is bizarre in the context of the series. It's like they forgot that the previous two movies had already rebooted Godzilla into a villain just by ignoring what had come before, so believed they had to reboot him again by rewriting the timeline. Which might be more palatable if they hadn't brought back Miki from the previous film, thus establishing it as a continuation rather than a new start.

And you left out the most disturbing problem with this film -- the jingoistic politics. The movie glorifies the actions of the imperialist Japanese military in WWII, and claims that Japan is destined to become the dominant power on Earth in the future. It's diametrically opposed to the politics of the later GMK, which paints imperialist Japan's aggression as a crime which the nation needs to accept its culpability for. And I think the latter view has been the dominant one in Japan for most of the past seven decades; I believe it's generally seen that the imperialism of the military before and during WWII was excessive -- even unpopular with the general public at the time -- and brought down disaster on the nation. So to see a movie glorifying and celebrating that military expansionism is strange and disquieting. Imagine if an American studio put out a film celebrating the honor and nobility of 19th-century slave-plantation owners. (Although you don't have to imagine it -- they already made it, and it's called Gone With the Wind. But that's another conversation.)

On a less disquieting, more trivial note, there's the fact that the supposed WWII veterans barely look any older in the 1992 scenes than they do in the 1944 scenes.

Oh, and they screwed up Godzilla's roar! It starts out as the classic roar but then crossfades into a generic animal growl, which totally ruins it. That upward flourish at the end is the best part.


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I did like the origin for Godzilla. He was just a left-over dinosaur in the wrong place at the wrong time. And apparently he's always fated to become Godzilla because even when he's transported into the middle of nowhere he still manages to get mutated by radiation.

I don't like that part so much. Mutation is a pretty random process, but we're supposed to believe that any exposure to radiation, even if it happens in a different context, will cause exactly the same mutation and cause the same kind of gigantism? Not to mention that we'll see more instances thereof in subsequent Heisei films. So why aren't there a bunch of giant humans stomping around as a result of radiation exposure?

The original film established that Godzilla was simply a naturally occurring giant that had survived in the ocean depths for millions of years (although it mistakenly puts the age of dinosaurs only 2 million years ago). The nuclear tests turned it radioactive and gave it the radioactive breath/ray, but otherwise the species was naturally that size -- as confirmed when the second Godzilla appeared in the sequel (and the baby Godzilla, Minya, showed up later in the series). I was surprised and intrigued to discover that, because I was so used to the assumption that he'd been turned giant by radiation. It was interesting to learn that that idea apparently only dates from 1992. I'd swear it was around longer than that, but maybe it was one of those things that are part of fan conjecture and belief but are only later made part of screen canon (like Sulu and Uhura's first names in Star Trek).


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Hopefully my DVDs will arrive soon and I can continue the Heisei series.

The next two films are my favorites of the era. I've mentioned how awful the subsequent SpaceGodzilla is, but it's the only bad one in the final four.
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#8 Virgil Vox

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

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I think that was the point. They needed confirmation that they'd found the actual proto-Godzilla, that the professor's theory of Godzilla's origin was correct.

I get that, but the villains all ready seemed pretty sure the dino was Godzilla. And all the main characters did was say, "Yeah, that could be Godzilla." Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

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Indeed. The point of the Heisei series was to make Godzilla a villain again, to erase the '60s/'70s continuity where he'd become a campy superhero and Gamera-like friend to humanity. So this movie that reverts to the old view of (the original) Godzilla as the traditional protector of Japan is bizarre in the context of the series. It's like they forgot that the previous two movies had already rebooted Godzilla into a villain just by ignoring what had come before, so believed they had to reboot him again by rewriting the timeline. Which might be more palatable if they hadn't brought back Miki from the previous film, thus establishing it as a continuation rather than a new start.

It was really odd. I can understand that they wanted a bigger, meaner looking Godzilla. That I'm cool with. But retconning Godzilla into some hero after having two films of him wrecking Japan and killing quite a few people was just bizarre. I could understand the military man thinking Godzlla was a good guy, but not everyone else.

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And you left out the most disturbing problem with this film -- the jingoistic politics. The movie glorifies the actions of the imperialist Japanese military in WWII, and claims that Japan is destined to become the dominant power on Earth in the future. It's diametrically opposed to the politics of the later GMK, which paints imperialist Japan's aggression as a crime which the nation needs to accept its culpability for.

That did bother me, but not too much. Even though Japan becomes the dominant power in the future, it seems like they do some bad things. When Miki is trying to get help from that man in the future to rebuild King Ghidorah, he says that they should just let Japan be destroyed since it has done bad things. So while it was jingoistic, it did portray Japan in a bad light somewhat.

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Oh, and they screwed up Godzilla's roar! It starts out as the classic roar but then crossfades into a generic animal growl, which totally ruins it. That upward flourish at the end is the best part.

I didn't even notice that. I'll have to go back and check it out.

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I don't like that part so much. Mutation is a pretty random process, but we're supposed to believe that any exposure to radiation, even if it happens in a different context, will cause exactly the same mutation and cause the same kind of gigantism? Not to mention that we'll see more instances thereof in subsequent Heisei films. So why aren't there a bunch of giant humans stomping around as a result of radiation exposure?

Honestly, by that point in the film I was more than fine with accepting that any kind of radiation exposure would mutate Godzilla. It made more sense than anything that had come before in the film.

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The next two films are my favorites of the era. I've mentioned how awful the subsequent SpaceGodzilla is, but it's the only bad one in the final four.

The next two are the ones I'm most excited for. Come on, an evil Mothra? What's not to love? I'm hoping this one has an evil baby form that is more effective than the adult form just like Mothra. :) And I'm always up for some MechaGodzilla action. While SpaceGodzilla will undoubtedly be bad, I do want to see Godzilla throw down with SpaceGodzilla. Should provide some laughs if nothing else. I'm also curious to see how they end everything in Godzilla Vs. Destoroyah. I'm assuming they knew it would be the final film and so will provide some closure. Other than the synopsis, I've been trying to avoid any spoiler for these films so I really don't know how it will all end.
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#9 Christopher

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 10:57 AM

Yes, Battra does have both a larval and adult form. The larva is pretty sinister-looking, but I don't recall how it compares in fighting skill to the adult.

And SpaceGodzilla providing laughs? Maybe the occasional one in between sobs...
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#10 G-man

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:00 PM

OK, Return of Godzilla basically postulates that this is the same Godzilla that raided Tokyo some 30 years earlier (i.e. 1954, when the first film came out).  So, essentially, the rest of the Showa era films are ignored, and no mention is made of the Oxygen Destroyer.

As for some other scenes that were deleted or abbreviated:

Working from memory - the scene where the reporter calls in to justify his account of the fishing boat is excised, as is the scene where he photographed the reunion between brother and sister, and most importantly, the cabinet meeting after the US and Soviet Ambassadors make their request.  In this scene is a discussion of just how big a nuke they're talking about, and whether or not it is worse than Godzilla stomping about.  Then there were a bunch of meetings whose scenes were abbreviated.

As I said, the Japanese version is a lot more deliberately paced than the American's.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 29 April 2013 - 09:15 PM.

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Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
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#11 Christopher

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:14 PM

View PostG-man, on 29 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

OK, Return of Godzilla basically postulates that this is the same Godzilla that raided Tokyo some 30 years earlier (i.e. 1954, when the first film came out).  So, essentially, the rest of the Showa era films are ignored, and no mention is made of the Oxygen Destroyer.

English or Japanese version?

If that's true of the Japanese version, it would conflict with Godzilla vs. Destoroyah, which specifically acknowledges that the Oxygen Destroyer killed the original Godzilla, and is a direct outgrowth of those events, as the title indicates (it would be better to transliterate it simply as Godzilla vs. Destroyer).

And yes, it's a given that the Heisei films (and the first three Millennium films) ignore the entire Showa continuity except for the original 1954 film. That was the whole idea.
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#12 G-man

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:19 PM

This is the Japanese version I am talking about.

And given the events in Godzilla versus Ghidorah which would also eliminate the whole Oxygen Destroyer scenario since after the time-traveller's meddling, Godzilla didn't visit Tokyo in 1954, I think it safe to say that the Toho film makers weren't overly concerned with continuity between films.  That we had Miki Saegusa appearing in them from Biollante on was truly an exception.

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#13 Christopher

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:14 PM

Sorry to quibble, but I've found other sources that imply the Godzilla from TRoG is "a new Godzilla" (Wikipedia) or "another Godzilla" (TV Tropes). So I'm still not sure what to believe. Is it possible that the film was just unclear on this point, that it never actually specified whether it was the original or a new one? That seems the most likely explanation for why there are conflicting reports: if it's vague enough that it can be interpreted either way, depending on the assumptions of the viewer. Or maybe there are different subtitles on different releases? (With Godzilla Raids Again, I was able to confirm the actual Japanese dialogue with my translation dictionary from college -- they did undoubtedly say dai-ni no Gojira, "second Godzilla.")
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#14 G-man

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:39 PM

(shrug)

I can only tell you what the subtitles indicate to me.

As for Godzilla Raids Again, that was definitely another Godzilla.  At the end of the first film, Dr. Yamane was worried that there might be more than one, and in the dialog to the sequel they reference that saying "Your fears were confirmed ..." and even mentioned that the first one had been destroyed by the Oxygen Destroyer.  In fact, watching the subtitled Japanese version of this film, I was surprised by how much they were making it a direct sequel to the first film.

/s/

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Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
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#15 Christopher

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:08 PM

At any rate, it's true that the continuity in the Heisei series is a mixed bag. In some respects there's a lot of continuity -- continuing characters, plot threads that build on past events, etc. -- but there are definite contradictions as well, mainly having to do with the idiotic mess of a time-travel plot in G vs. King Ghidorah. As stated above, changing history should've eliminated the events of the '54 film, but the final Heisei installment is a direct sequel to that film and its concepts.
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#16 Virgil Vox

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:18 PM

It is definitely headache inducing to try and figure out whether the Heisei Godzilla is the same as the original or a new one. Though as G-man points out, technically once the time travelers remove the Godzilla dino from the island he becomes a new Godzilla. That time travel plot really made a mess of things. I feel like Rita from MMPR. I have such a headache. :)
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#17 Christopher

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

Here's a hypothesis that may or may not work:

TRoG is like GMK in that it's set in a world where there have been no Godzilla attacks for several decades since the events of the original film. So maybe it's also like GMK in that a lot of the details of the '54 attack have been forgotten or suppressed. Perhaps the Oxygen Destroyer was classified here as well. So maybe the Heisei Godzilla is a second member of the species, but the characters believe it's the original Godzilla returned because they don't know that Godzilla was killed. And the folks from the future in GvKG are confused about it too, since it's from centuries in their past. So the Godzillasaurus they relocate in the past was actually the progenitor of the second Godzilla -- and maybe there was another one left behind on that or a neighboring island that mutated into the original G and attacked in '54. And then, sometime between GvKG and the final film, the truth about the Oxygen Destroyer and the original Godzilla's death was declassified. So it wouldn't be a continuity error, just a change in what the inhabitants of the Heisei universe believed about their past.

Of course, this doesn't help resolve the huge time-travel logic holes in GvKG, like how come everybody remembered the recent Godzilla attacks if that Godzilla's history had been changed. But what I'm kind of suggesting here is that we ignore that bit of nonsense and retcon it away -- pretend that the reference to people remembering recent Godzilla attacks is actually a reference to remembering the original '54 attack.
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#18 Virgil Vox

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:05 PM

^Sounds good to me and the more we ignore the time travel plot the happier I am.
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#19 G-man

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

^^^ Of course, the problem is that the Heisei Mecha-Godzilla was reverse engineered from Mecha-Ghidorah, so you're kind of stuck no matter how you spin it.

Personally, though, I find the Godzilla films work best if you accept each chapter as a standalone, even if they insert ties to previous installments.
  
/s/

Gloriosus
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Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#20 DWF

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 08:02 PM

523146_399023603485290_125735607_n.jpg

This was most exciting era for Godzilla for me, the '84 movie was meant as a direct sequel and remake of the original complete with giving Godzilla his fourth toe, the Showa version had three per foot, four toes was meant to signify his status was one of the higher level of dragons. The '84 movie also made use of then current technology with what was then called a "bio-bot" something akin to the Doctor Who companion Kamelion. The movies had IMO a fairly tight continuity which was surprising given the events of the '91 movie. And of course the '89 movie gave us Megumi Odaka as Miki Segusi. But the '92 movie gave us the beautiful Shelley Sweeney who as far as I know was the only caucasian to play a different character in five different Godzilla movies.

265055_10150227152366036_18659336035_7633943_8381011_n.jpg

The Heisei movies were mainly made mostly the same people behind the camera and Godzilla had a more uniform look thoughout that era, the only real exception being Spacegodzilla which had numerous problems.

The Sony DVDs and tapes were redubbed and the end credits were removed which is a shame given the last movie featured the last composition of Akira Ifbuke during the end credits of Destroyer.
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