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Big Brother spies on Americans

Civil Liberties 2013 NSA Domestic Spying Obama Administration

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#61 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:43 PM

OK, perhaps it's me? Perhaps my thinking is in error *looks at the membership in general, "Not one word"* lol. Seriously though, something about this whole Edward Snowden leak doesn't make sense. If you're going to expose classified material to the world, knowing full well the USA government will press charges and come a hunting. Wouldn't you're first step be to make sure you are ALREADY IN a country that has no extradition to the US, before going on global tv? Why take the risk that Hong Kong would honor the US's extradition request.

Oh, and whoever screwed up the paperwork on the extradition request....enjoy being unemployed.

It just doesn't make sense. How he's going to Russia, because Russia won't have a police squad waiting to arrest him...Although I'm sure something will be waiting for him, and he might not like it.

The news media is reporting Snowden has request asylum in ecaduor...Again, when running from somebody you don't announce where you are going! It defeats the entire concept of running from the law.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#62 BklnScott

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:54 AM

I think it's important for his movements to be publicized - lest he end up "rendered" to a torture chamber in Egypt.  

I think he didn't take the flight to Cuba because it was packed with journalists... though he could be in the middle of an FSB "debrief."

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#63 The Tyrant

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:02 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 23 June 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

OK, perhaps it's me? Perhaps my thinking is in error *looks at the membership in general, "Not one word"* lol. Seriously though, something about this whole Edward Snowden leak doesn't make sense. If you're going to expose classified material to the world, knowing full well the USA government will press charges and come a hunting. Wouldn't you're first step be to make sure you are ALREADY IN a country that has no extradition to the US, before going on global tv? Why take the risk that Hong Kong would honor the US's extradition request.

Oh, and whoever screwed up the paperwork on the extradition request....enjoy being unemployed.

It just doesn't make sense. How he's going to Russia, because Russia won't have a police squad waiting to arrest him...Although I'm sure something will be waiting for him, and he might not like it.

The news media is reporting Snowden has request asylum in ecaduor...Again, when running from somebody you don't announce where you are going! It defeats the entire concept of running from the law.

Kind of just what I was thinking...I heard the reporters saying 'He's not on the plane to Cuba', and I thought...Gee, maybe it's because *everybody freaking knows he was supposed to be on it!?*
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#64 Dev F

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:53 PM

I actually find this to be a hugely frustrating case, because on the one hand I think a serious examination of our national security and civil liberty priorities is long overdue, but on the other hand I find Snowden to be about as unsympathetic and unhelpful a whistleblower as one could imagine.

This is a guy whom the media initially presented as a veteran surveillance specialist who had become alarmed by the power of the tools at his disposal. But it turns out he's an IT contractor with a preexisting suspicion of all forms of government surveillance (up to and including such of-course-they-do-it NSA operations as spying on the Russians and the Chinese), who joined Booz Allen specifically to download NSA secrets and apparently didn't even understand the programs he was whistleblowing about. (Hence the early reports about the government having "direct access" to the servers of the major Internet companies, which was apparently based on a misunderstanding of one of the slides he obtained, which was actually drawing a distinction between data siphoned off the Internet backbone and data obtained from the Internet companies via specific warrant.)

And as a result of Snowden's carelessness and presumption, the media debate has gotten pulled in all sorts of unhelpful directions, from freaking out over things that aren't happening to questioning the basic principles of spycraft, to debating the life and motives of a whistleblower who seems determined to insert himself into the story at every opportunity. Which is a shame, because there are a lot of issues here that are well worth debating, whether it's the disconcerting but not surprising consequences of the Patriot Act, the questionable justifications the government uses to keep information classified, or the obvious pitfalls of an overgrown, increasingly privatized national security apparatus. But every day the media spends talking about Snowden's international adventures or the NSA's nonexistent backdoor to everyone's Gmail accounts is a day they're not putting those important issues in the public eye.

Edited by Dev F, 24 June 2013 - 03:56 PM.


#65 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:07 AM

View PostDev F, on 24 June 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

I actually find this to be a hugely frustrating case, because on the one hand I think a serious examination of our national security and civil liberty priorities is long overdue, but on the other hand I find Snowden to be about as unsympathetic and unhelpful a whistleblower as one could imagine.

This is a guy whom the media initially presented as a veteran surveillance specialist who had become alarmed by the power of the tools at his disposal. But it turns out he's an IT contractor with a preexisting suspicion of all forms of government surveillance (up to and including such of-course-they-do-it NSA operations as spying on the Russians and the Chinese), who joined Booz Allen specifically to download NSA secrets and apparently didn't even understand the programs he was whistleblowing about. (Hence the early reports about the government having "direct access" to the servers of the major Internet companies, which was apparently based on a misunderstanding of one of the slides he obtained, which was actually drawing a distinction between data siphoned off the Internet backbone and data obtained from the Internet companies via specific warrant.)

And as a result of Snowden's carelessness and presumption, the media debate has gotten pulled in all sorts of unhelpful directions, from freaking out over things that aren't happening to questioning the basic principles of spycraft, to debating the life and motives of a whistleblower who seems determined to insert himself into the story at every opportunity. Which is a shame, because there are a lot of issues here that are well worth debating, whether it's the disconcerting but not surprising consequences of the Patriot Act, the questionable justifications the government uses to keep information classified, or the obvious pitfalls of an overgrown, increasingly privatized national security apparatus. But every day the media spends talking about Snowden's international adventures or the NSA's nonexistent backdoor to everyone's Gmail accounts is a day they're not putting those important issues in the public eye.

You're right, those things should be debated and talked about.

However, the fact that he deliberately took the job in the hopes of getting classified data he could expose, does change everything. Now his going to China and Russia makes perfect sense...since it seems apparent he's giving those classified secrets to the USA's enemies. So with the truth about his motives revealed, he goes from whistleblower to a traitor spy. I know when I first thought he was just a whistleblower, I hoped he didn't get rendered into a secret torture chamber somewhere. Now that I know him for what he is...I hope he does get rendered.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#66 DWF

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 01:10 PM

i do have to agree about the dangers of the Patriot Act, but then we as people give away too much infomation about ourselves as it is.We must think long and hard before we allow our liberties to taken from us.
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#67 Nonny

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 02:17 PM

Anybody else expecting a sighting of him wearing Kraft's Super Bowl ring?  No?   :p
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#68 ilexx

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:31 AM

Quote

However, the fact that he deliberately took the job in the hopes of getting classified data he could expose, does change everything. Now his going to China and Russia makes perfect sense...since it seems apparent he's giving those classified secrets to the USA's enemies.
Problem: now that it's been revealed that the US is also spying on its allies big time, it doesn't seem as if the US has many - if any - friends left: http://www.wnd.com/2...ee-trade-talks/

#69 JadziaDax

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:40 AM

View Postilexx, on 14 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

Quote

However, the fact that he deliberately took the job in the hopes of getting classified data he could expose, does change everything. Now his going to China and Russia makes perfect sense...since it seems apparent he's giving those classified secrets to the USA's enemies.
Problem: now that it's been revealed that the US is also spying on its allies big time, it doesn't seem as if the US has many - if any - friends left: http://www.wnd.com/2...ee-trade-talks/

What makes you think the US is the only country spying? I'd be very surprised if other countries were NOT doing the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure everyone spies on everyone else.
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#70 Dev F

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:59 PM

View PostJadziaDax, on 15 July 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

What makes you think the US is the only country spying? I'd be very surprised if other countries were NOT doing the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure everyone spies on everyone else.
They do indeed. Here are a couple articles I found about the phenomenon from way back in the mid-1980s. The intelligence experts interviewed in the pieces characterize the practice as sensitive but hardly unprecedented -- the intelligence service must weigh the value of the potential intelligence against the risk of upsetting an ally, and "most bungled cases of friendly spying are hushed up, sparing public embarrassment for all." I suspect that the reason our allies are raising a fuss about the Snowden revelations is because they have to, because the revelations have already been made public. As a former CIA director quoted in one of the articles says, "The only sin in espionage is getting caught."

This is yet another example of why I find Snowden so problematic as a whistleblower -- because he's a dumb kid basing his disclosures not on an informed understanding of spycraft and its history but on his own libertarian-inflected assumptions about how espionage should work, no matter that it never has worked that way. Thus, the whole debate ends up barreling down these blind alleys where instead of discussing important issues like how unwieldy the surveillance state has become or whether the Patriot Act is overly broad, we're yelling at each other about Spycraft 101.



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