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Jury says it's OK to kill to get your money back

Texas Prostitution Murder Jury Verdict 2013

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#1 Cait

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:50 AM

My apologies in advance to any Texans here, but WTF!!!  It's OK to kill an escort for not giving you your money back or having sex with you?  Am I hearing this right?  Kill?  It's OK to kill someone for that?

http://www.rawstory....g-sex-with-you/


Quote

The prosecutors—correctly!—argued that the law that allows citizens to shoot in an attempt to retrieve stolen property is not there to give you the right to use lethal force to rape someone. But apparently, the jury disagreed and thought that giving a man a right to tell a woman that her options are rape or death is A-OK with them, if she accepted money from him. This is beyond the beyond. Look, if your drug dealer takes your money and doesn’t give you drugs, you can’t call the cops to report him. You can’t sue him for breach of contract. Black market activities are true caveat emptor kind of situations. But apparently, some Texas jury was easy to convince you should be able to use lethal force to enforce what wasn’t even an explicit contract (since prostitutes often charge for their time and the sex is a freebie *wink wink*) that the courts won’t recognize. Because it’s illegal.

Not that it would be okay to shoot someone for perceived breach of contract if prostitution was legal. At best, you’d have a right to sue. But hey, I think prostitution is one case where the libertarian arguments for a strict free market should apply: If you pay a lady for her services and find them inadequate, your only legal recourse should be to not use her services again. Anything outside of that verges into rape-y territory. But under no fucking circumstances do you get to take her life.

Basically, you’re seeing the same problem that you see with “stand your ground” laws and other such laws that give people broad rights to shoot outside of immediate self-defense. It turns shooting cases into situations where the jury just basically rules in favor of the person who has higher social status. “White man” outranks “Hispanic prostitute”, and so shooting her is rendered legal, as long as you can cough up the thinnest of justifications. But if you’re a black woman who doesn’t even hurt someone while firing a gun in actual self-defense, too bad for you! These laws are custom made to be exploited for racist and sexist ends.


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Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
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Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
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Source:
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#2 Nonny

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

:wallbash:
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#3 offworlder

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:41 PM

well I can't see the exact case, and details, and would not have th e time anyway, but these laws are
for when you are defending your home, and family, and a robber poses a threat, but you can't shoot
sixty yards to the robber's back as he about crosses your property line away, can you?

here's a thing on like stuff,
http://wiki.answers....bing_your_house
' Yes. Texas's self-defense law is pretty broad, and you have the right to defend yourself, your family and your property. The caveat is that you have to reasonably believe that the force you use is necessary to prevent the robbery (or harm to yourself or others).
'
and here with the cop it's because of the assault threat on the clerk,
http://www.chron.com...ect-4471801.php

and here it's two armed robbers in his home,
http://www.theblaze....had-to-take-it/

so in these cases it's the violence, the threat, the arms, and defending home turf,
so with a call escort, was she armed? was she invading his home without permission? was she threatening
his wife or daughter? have a fam member by the throat? was she shot in the back?

But what is this case Really?
!

http://rhrealitychec...es-to-have-sex/
' It is not in dispute that the defendant, Ezekiel Gilbert, paid the victim, Lenora Frago, $150 for 30 minutes of escort services advertised on Craigslist. After Frago refused to have sex with him, the defendant shot her. Frago was paralyzed and the defendant was charged with aggravated assault.  When she died seven months later Gilbert was indicted for murder instead.
At trial, defense attorneys made the shocking argument that Gilbert was justified in shooting Frago because she had stolen from him and Texas law permits the use of deadly force to defend one’s property at night. That a defense was raised in this case based on Texas’ awful defense of property law is certainly newsworthy and even more reason to reform that law. But there is no evidence that the jury acquitted based on the defense of property law in the first place.
The much more plausible reason for the verdict is that the jury believed the defendant’s claim that he didn’t intend to shoot the victim. Per Texas’ homicide statute, the prosecution needed to prove that Gilbert “intentionally or knowingly” killed Frago or intended to cause her “serious bodily injury.” The defense argued that Gilbert lacked the requisite intent for murder because when he shot at the car as Frago and the owner of the escort service drove away, he was aiming for the tire. ..
'
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#4 Nonny

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 05:25 PM

Did he actually get his money back, or just revenge?  I can't bring myself to work my way through the details.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#5 Cait

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:06 PM

So apparently a man with an AK-47 can kill a woman for not returning his money even though he himself is engaged in an illegal act.  I'm sure a lot of drug dealers and ripped off drug purchasers will be glad to hear this.  I now understand the line from "Thelma and Louise" when she said said she would not drive through Texas to get to Mexico.  Weird state.  I mean a really strange state.


http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1365975


Quote

A Texas john who shot a Craigslist escort dead after she took $150 of his cash but refused to have sex has been cleared of murder.
Ezekiel Gilbert, 30, was facing life in jail for the 2009 Christmas Eve killing of Lenora Frago, 23, outside his San Antonio apartment.
Gilbert used a AK-47 assault rifle to spray his alleged victim's car with bullets as she was driven away at 4:15 a.m. by her alleged pimp, Christopher Perkins.

Frago was hit in the neck.

Left paralyzed and brain damaged from the shooting, she was hooked up to a respirator for several months until her family pulled the plug in July 2010.
A Bexar County Texas court jury on Thursday took 11 hours to acquit Gilbert — saying his actions were justified because he was simply trying to retrieve stolen property.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#6 Bad Wolf

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:02 AM

Texas.  'Nuff said.
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#7 Nikcara

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:33 PM

What's even more infuriating is that she listed her services as *an escort*, not a prostitute.  There is frequently overlap because escort services are legal why prostitution is not, but if she spent the night with him (or the hours he contracted) and then left...that's what an escort does.  They go with you somewhere for a specified amount of time and don't have sex with you.  Arguably, she filled the terms of the contract they made.  Could there have been a verbal agreement that sex was part of the deal?  Sure...but that's an illegal activity, and murdering someone for not performing an illegal activity is simply unjustified.  As someone mentioned before, if you pay a dealer for drugs and they rip you off, you don't get to (legally) shoot them.  

Also, murdering someone over $150 is just sad.  I don't care who she was or what she did, her life was worth more than that.
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#8 offworlder

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:56 PM

well aparently the jury believed the story about firing at the car to stop it, the tires, and it hit her was an accident, even though you caused it the intent of harm or death was not there- so it's really not about murder, or about Texas or it's shoot/robber laws- as far as escorts go, it's such a complicated line, you pay more than a whore, you pay like 500 or what, or up, with no agreement, no true(even if fanciful and even if you convince yourself) expectation of sex; so how can anyone say she welched? now if the deal was, 500 for the night, and 500 more if there is specific sex, and she took 1000 and left, well then that's a welch, but not armed robbery, so that Texas law would not apply anyway- it seems the press are harping on the one thing when it's about the other things, and well WOW they do that all the time, they think it's their raison d'etre
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#9 Balderdash

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:12 PM

Yeah, Texas would be the last place on earth I'd ever live and then Florida.

He fricking "sprayed her car with an AK-47.  What about all of the people that the lunatic could have killed
or injured "spraying" bullets with his effing AK-47.  Batshit crazy gun s and the people pulling the trigger. :no:

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#10 Bobby

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

Could they not convict him on reckless homicide as a lesser charge?  I served on a jury in a second degree murder case where a guy claimed he shot another man in self-defense.  No gun was found with the victim's body, he was shot in the back.  There were only three people willing to testify.  The defendant's cousins(they had criminal records themselves) and a woman who didn't see the victim with a gun were the only ones willing to testify despite their being other witnesses.  Two of the people on our jury wanted to let the guy walk scott free.  I was for manslaughter.  We deadlocked but the judge told us to take a break and then go back in.  The two hold outs finally agreed to reckless homicide.  Does Texas not allow the jury to consider lesser degrees?  It's not like the guy used a rifle to try to shoot out the tire, he used an Ak-47, he was spraying bullets.  A grocery store is more liable for someone slipping on a spill than this man is for taking a gun and intentionally aiming it at a car with two people in it and firing.  I'm with Nikara, it's horrible she lost her life over $150 dollars. If this man has that kind of over reaction, then I think it should be a sign he has poor judgment and might try it again.  He's been vindicated, it still falls under an abuse of the stand your ground principle, why was he shooting at their tire?  Because he felt he was in the right to get his money back.  I don't like the idea of trying someone twice but did they charge him with anything in regards to the pimp?  He was in the car too so he could have been killed.

#11 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:00 PM

Killing someone is now legal, as long as you are trying to get your money back???? All department stores had better beef up their security forces then.

Seriously...this is extreme, even for someone like me...and THAT is saying something.
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