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Californian recall election delayed

Election California Recall 2003

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#21 Appreciate

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 04:14 PM

I have one question of policy:  WHY is a federal court ruling on a state election of a state official?  I don't get it....

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#22 Rov Judicata

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 04:16 PM

Appreciate, on Sep 15 2003, 02:14 PM, said:

I have one question of policy:  WHY is a federal court ruling on a state election of a state official?  I don't get it....

A frustrated Californian,
Kathy
State issues can go to federal courts if there's a federal issue. For instance, if a state abridged a newspaper's first amendment rights, it would go to federal court.

Same deal here. The federal issue is right to vote and the 14th amendment. As such, it falls within the jurisdiction of the SCOTUS.

This is also similar to Florida, as that intervention was within a state for the election of state officials. :).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#23 MuseZack

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 04:22 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Sep 15 2003, 08:01 PM, said:

I too agree with Drew (don't FAINT anyone) that if it were a republican being recalled the ACLU wouldn't have bothered.

Which is not to say that someone else wouldn't have.;)

Lil
Lil, the ACLU defends the rights of Nazis.  They've also sided with Operation Rescue and other anti-abortion groups in the past.    Why wouldn't they side with a Republican?

Besides, the delay doesn't really serve the Democrats' interests.  Bustamante was the front-running candidate in all the polls, and the recall itself was losing steam and more and more voters got sick of the circus atmosphere.  Momentum was clearly on the Democrats' side, and delaying the recall risks letting the Republicans get a second wind.

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#24 Bad Wolf

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 04:26 PM

Zack I disagree.

If the election happens during the democrat primary, Bustamente's chances are only improved because of the greater democrat turnout.

As for the ACLU, call me jaded, but I don't think they'd lift a finger if this was, say, Pete Wilson at issue.

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#25 Drew

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 05:03 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Sep 15 2003, 02:56 PM, said:

Paraphrasing:

They concede that the constitution requires that the election be held sixty days after the certification. The argument seems to be that since the election would have been held in 2004 if the recall had been filed just 90 days later, it's okay to delay it more <If there's an election within six months, the recall and the election are consolidated>. This, however, violates the CA constitution.

However, if the 9th circuit's interpretation is right, the voting rights issues probably trumps that clause. Maybe.

"The California Constitution already permits up to a six month delay to advance the State's interest in efficiency and convenience; the requested injunction would result in only a seven and a half delay to cure a substantial constitutional violation."
:: shakes fist ::

Abhorrently vainglorious bureaucracy!!

(Sorry, just wanted to say that.)  :cool:
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#26 Shalamar

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 05:38 PM

Texas has its share of political embarrasements, but I feel so sorry for those in California.

From what I have heard on the radio today it really does sound like they are insulting (the democrats ) are insulting the intellegence of minority voters...what because you are in a minority you aren't smart enough to understand the ballot?

That is just so offensive...

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#27 Kimmer

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 06:24 PM

Quote

According to the decision, 44% of the electorate will be subjected to a system that is 250% more likely to have errors... which, if accurate, means the disenfranchisement of 40,000 voters.

Thank you 9th Circus Court ... you have validated my issue with the election this past Nov. Let's look at the final results for Gov:

*Gray Davis - Dem: 3,469,025
  Bill Simon - Rep: 3,105,477

A difference of .... drum roll please ..... 36,3548!!!!!!! So by their own logic, the election this past Nov. was inaccurate and thus Grey Davis and Bill Simon should be in a "run off" election. HA!

Quote

Another issue brought up is that members of our armed forces may not have had time to get absentee ballots.
NOT! I heard an interview with our Sec. of State (and I'm sorry I can't find it online) where he stated the folks out of the country, and especially those in the armed forces would have all their stuff in time and arrangements had been made so that they could FAX their ballots in. HA!

As far as polling places, big deal. I have my sample ballot and I am smart enough to read the back and find my way to my new polling place. Shoot, I wind up at a new polling place every few elections anyhow, so what's the big deal?

The whole punch card issue to me is ludicrous. I'm old enough to have voted the first time around in one of those huge levered machines. My second time was in CA, and I was handed a punch card. No one told me how to use it, I managed to figure it out. Gee - what a concept. A woman who used her brains and figured out how to use a punch card. (That's a dig at my local dem. party who were quoted in the local paper as hinting that woman were confused when it came to the recall, to voting in general and that punch cards were too complicated for us. I needed soap after I read that.)



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#28 Banapis

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 06:28 PM

Kosh, on Sep 15 2003, 07:52 PM, said:

The Rush Limbaugh take, Democrats say the punch card system is to difficult for minorities to use, are the Dems calling minorities stupid?
Shameful, absolutely shameful.  Playing the race card?  Have you dignity at all, Mr. Limbaugh?

As is readily apparent to anyone who has glanced at the opinion, or even has the slightest interest in such silly and archaic concepts as "the truth," the argument is not at all that minorities are too stupid to vote for their correct choice.

In fact, the issue is not even human error, it's mechanical error.  Has everyone already forgotten their crash course in "hanging chads," "indented chads," and "pregnant chads?"  That's what these machines produce.  You vote for the right person, but for mechanical reasons the card doesn't punch all the way through.  And when the card doesn't punch, your vote hasn't been cast, and you have been disenfranshised.  As the 9th Circuit's opinion points out, the problems with the votomatic have been known since 1968.  And while that margin of error might have been acceptable in '68 it is by no means acceptable in 2003 when we have the technology to do so much better.

So what was the court's point about disenfranchising minorities then, you ask?  Simple socioeconomics.   Wealthier people live in wealthier neighborhoods.  Wealthier neighborhoods can afford fancy optical scanning voting machines.  The amount of errors these machines make is miniscule when compared to the votomatic.  Thus, there is very little chance of a mechanical error taking away a vote cast by a well to do person when (s)he votes by optical scanner.

Votomatics are dirt cheap.  Poor districts that can't afford better buy and use them.  The minority figures cited reflect the large minority pouplation in those poor districts in California.  Because they're not as wealthy, they have to vote with a flawed machine and run the much higher risk of their vote not counting.

That's what this case was about.  The vote of a lower class individual should have as good a chance of counting as a vote cast by a wealthier person.  It's about realizing that fundamental vision of what we believe America to be: a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people.  Where each person takes his place on equal terms with everyone else when it comes to participating in that noble experiment that we call democracy.

You would think if there is one thing we could all agree on in this country,  it would be that we should try our very best to ensure everyone's vote counted equally.  Of course it'll never be perfect, but if the better means is there we should certainly avail ourselves of it.

Again, shame on Mr. Limbaugh and shame on anyone else who would be party to his lies and racial incitement.

Banapis

#29 Norville

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 06:40 PM

*beats head against wall* :cry: Make it stop, make it stop... :silenced:
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#30 Drew

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 08:06 PM

I was listening to an NPR program this evening that mentioned the following factors:

1) Gray Davis isn't so popular with African-Americans. To combat this, Bill Clinton showed up this weekend to preach the gospel of NO RECALL! in an African Methodist Episcopal church. African-Americans generally approve of Bill Clinton. (I couldn't figure out why Clinton suddenly showed up on the scene, but this begins to shed light on it.)

2) If the recall vote is delayed until Spring, it will take place at the same time as the Democratic primary, which will result in more Democrats at the polls, which will mean a greater likelihood of keeping Gray Davis in office.

3) The 9th Circuit is the same court that decided "under God" in the pledge of allegiance was unconstitutional. A commentator said that many of the 9th Circuit's decisions are overruled, and the pro-recall factions are counting on it happening in this case, too.

What a circus.  :(
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#31 Norville

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 08:53 PM

*twitch* :crazy:

Okay, a calmer reaction... ;)

Hey, my mother already sent in her absentee ballot. I'm sure many other absentee voters have sent theirs in. Is it invalidated if this months-long wait goes ahead?

Also, I now have my ballot. How much money did it take to print and send all these recall ballots, and then maybe postpone the election? (Assuming that things change enough from now until then that they'll have to print/send new ballots.) I already thought that the recall was going to waste money, even if it's justified. How much *more* money is the postponement going to waste?
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
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Rule#4: Be outraged.
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http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#32 Rov Judicata

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:34 AM

Banapis:

Quote

In fact, the issue is not even human error, it's mechanical error.

That's not the case. While mechanical error is a factor, a large part of this *is* human error; that's why voter education was proposed to reduce the error rate.


Quote

As is readily apparent to anyone who has glanced at the opinion, or even has the slightest interest in such silly and archaic concepts as "the truth," the argument is not at all that minorities are too stupid to vote for their correct choice.

Secondly, the argument is partially that minorities have more problems with the punch cards:


Page 25 of the decision discusses Dr. Brady's in-depth study of the punch card issue. Relevant excerpt:

"... the analysis indicated that when pre-scored punchcard systems were used, minority voters had significiantly higher residual vote rates than non-minorities".

While it's unfair to characterize it as stupidity, minorities do appear to have a harder time with punch card ballots. *Why* is an interesting question, of course...
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#33 Rov Judicata

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:37 AM

Drew, on Sep 15 2003, 03:03 PM, said:

Abhorrently vainglorious bureaucracy!!

(Sorry, just wanted to say that.)  :cool:
LOL Drew!
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#34 jon3831

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:54 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Sep 15 2003, 10:34 PM, said:

That's not the case. While mechanical error is a factor, a large part of this *is* human error; that's why voter education was proposed to reduce the error rate.
Dangit Rov, you beat me out... ;)

Anyway, barring the problems with the counting machines themselves, I don't know that I'd render the voter blameless because the Votomatic didn't properly punch the card. How difficult is it for a voter to check the card after it's removed from the machine, like the instructions say to? Every election I've participated in has been with a punchcard ballot, and every time I've checked to make sure I didn't dimple a chad, leave one hanging, or whatever. And you know what? If I did leave a hanging chad or a pregnant chad or whatever, or I marked the wrong hole and didn't ask for a new ballot,  that would be then *my* fault. No one else's. Mine.

It seems as though we're trying to blame an inanimate object for people not taking the time to follow instructions. Is that disenfranchisement? The 9th Circuit seems to think so.

Everyone's mileage may vary, of course, but that's my take on the situation.
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#35 GiGi

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 02:17 AM

Norville, on Sep 15 2003, 05:53 PM, said:

*twitch* :crazy:

Okay, a calmer reaction... ;)

Hey, my mother already sent in her absentee ballot. I'm sure many other absentee voters have sent theirs in. Is it invalidated if this months-long wait goes ahead?

Also, I now have my ballot. How much money did it take to print and send all these recall ballots, and then maybe postpone the election? (Assuming that things change enough from now until then that they'll have to print/send new ballots.) I already thought that the recall was going to waste money, even if it's justified. How much *more* money is the postponement going to waste?
I am against the recall and I have hit my limit too. I was against the recall because of the expense.  Plus we had a recall in our county about twenty years ago and all it did was make a big mess.

But to change it now is stupid.  Besides there is a week for counter suits to be brought, when will we really know if it is going to be held? The night before?  Only people committed to this election will bother, everyone else will give up.

talk about disenfranchisement!

PS Kimmer you will be neighbors with my mother in law.  And with what she is saying about Oregon having moved there from Oxnard a couple of years ago is none too encouraging.
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#36 Anakam

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 07:59 AM

Quote

Norville:
How much *more* money is the postponement going to waste?

*insert crack here about the budget for Arnold's next movie going down because of the postponement*

Yeah, I realize it's not very funny, but with actors involved it's kinda hard NOT to think of a bad joke along those lines. :p

Quote

jon3831:
It seems as though we're trying to blame an inanimate object for people not taking the time to follow instructions. Is that disenfranchisement? The 9th Circuit seems to think so.

I'm starting to see the source of that joke in chat about the 9th Circuit court....

And about blame--I dislike generalizing so extremely, but this is no different than blaming, say, a street sign after we've hit it.  Or any of the other million lousy irresponsible forms of "It's not my fault!  I'm not responsible!"
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#37 Drew

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 08:36 AM

I'm sorry, but I must fine GiGi and jon two quatloos each for the use of the term "disenfranchisement."  :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#38 Norville

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 10:11 AM

I voted with the punch card system for years and it wasn't that freaking difficult. Although there *were* times when I wondered if the card had been placed right and the punch was actually hitting the right holes. So yeah, I can see why there'd be controversy over it, but to delay an election over the fact that the system still exists in some counties... yeesh.

Marin changed to ballots that one fills in with a pen several years ago, and I sort of looked at that change with a wary eye, like "How stupid do you think we are?" But I'll admit that when I vote, I'm more absolutely certain that I chose what I wanted to choose and that there was no technical difficulty involved in using a pen. ;)

Edited by Norville, 16 September 2003 - 10:12 AM.

"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#39 Rhea

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 11:04 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Sep 15 2003, 12:56 PM, said:

Ironically, Bush vs. Gore is cited: "The right of suffrage can be denied by a debasement or dilution of the weight of a citizen's vote just as effectively as by wholly prohibiting the free exercise of the franchise"
I believe this comes under the heading of "hoist on your own petard." :p :p
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#40 Rhea

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 11:06 AM

GiGi, on Sep 16 2003, 12:17 AM, said:

PS Kimmer you will be neighbors with my mother in law. And with what she is saying about Oregon having moved there from Oxnard a couple of years ago is none too encouraging.
The grass always looks greener on the other side...till you have to mow that lawn.  ;)  ;)

All states have pluses and minuses. I remember when I moved to Texas I was appalled at the sheer *number* of things you get taxed on individually just so that Texans can brag that they don't have state income tax!  :eek2:  :eek2:

In this case I get to be the anti-Kimmer (sorry, sweets):

I *LOVE* my state, in all its wacky glory. I wouldn't live anywhere else (and I've lived in a large number of other states and enjoyed them all).  :love:  :love:

Edited by Rhea, 16 September 2003 - 11:09 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



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