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Californian recall election delayed

Election California Recall 2003

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#41 G1223

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 11:48 AM

Sarcasm this post is filled with Sarcasm This is not a test.

Oh good this way they only have to have a replacement for nearly 7 months. Any chance Davis could get it pushed back to the day before he leaves office.

Well CA sorry your wishes are the subject of politicans and they know you would never vote them out and make the state ....Republician afterall that would be just wrong.

So seeing as how that will not happen they can dictate exactly what you get and how.


I got to say last time we had that here in INdiana was nearly 4 yrs ago and while the Democratic Mayor of Indy did not work as good as he could  he did mess up the'Machine's ' plans for the city.

So remember you can not vote for the vote the bastards out becasue that means the Republicans would control the state and we all know they are EVIL beyond redeemption and Davis and crew are just Saints  :angel:


This has been a actual use of Sarcasm  report your fears and or injures to the responsible athorities.
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#42 GiGi

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:03 PM

Drew, on Sep 16 2003, 05:36 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but I must fine GiGi and jon two quatloos each for the use of the term "disenfranchisement."  :cool:
disenfranchisement * disenfranchisement * disenfranchisement * disenfranchisement * disenfranchisement

Add my fine to my tab.  My personal budget is in about the same shape as California's so what is a little more debt?  Pile in on!
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#43 Rhea

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:11 PM

^ :p :p :p  :lol:
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#44 Drew

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:13 PM

An invoice is on its way!  :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#45 jon3831

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:20 PM

*tosses Drew a 5-quatloo token*

Keep the change. It was worth it to take a jab at the 9th Circuit. ;) ;) :p

Quote

Norville:  Marin changed to ballots that one fills in with a pen several years ago, and I sort of looked at that change with a wary eye, like "How stupid do you think we are?" But I'll admit that when I vote, I'm more absolutely certain that I chose what I wanted to choose and that there was no technical difficulty involved in using a pen.

Marin uses the Accuvote, don't they?

http://www.ss.ca.gov...tems/global.htm

That makes more sense than what San Bernardino County is going to...

Looking at our new sample ballots, I'm not convinced that we're not looking at another Florida in a few years because of the arrows. Remember the butterfly ballot and the arrows that no one could follow?

http://www.ss.ca.gov...quoiaoptech.htm

Besides, whatif the pen is out of ink? Whatif the line isn't dark enough? Whatif it's crooked?

No matter what we do, there's going to be a certain amount of voter error that can't be avoided. The question is, though, are we going to have a lawsuit for every election because of it?
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#46 QuiGon John

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:22 PM

Hmm, annoying buzzword or not, I don't see how you can ban the word "disenfranchisement" from a discussion about a decision on... well... disenfranchisement.  :ninja:

Therefore, the Orbis Terrarum Enfranchisement of the Disenfranchised Fund will be established to collect quatloos to pay the bill for those who feel they must use the word.  

*Contributes ten quatloos himself*

Actually, make it eight.  I'm gonna use two of them myself:

Disenfranchisement.

:angel:

Edited by John Burke, 16 September 2003 - 12:23 PM.


#47 Rhea

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:01 PM

It's a perfectly good word, to wit:

dis·en·fran·chise
(dsn-frnchz)
tr.v. dis·en·fran·chised, dis·en·fran·chis·ing, dis·en·fran·chis·es
To disfranchise

or from Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: dis·en·fran·chise
Pronunciation: "di-s&n-'fran-"chIz
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1664
: DISFRANCHISE
- dis·en·fran·chise·ment  /-"chIz-m&nt, -ch&z-/ noun

Being the noun of a perfectly good verb.

Rhea grabs back from Drew the quatloos collected in fines and gives them to their rightful owners

Edited by Rhea, 16 September 2003 - 02:37 PM.

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#48 Kimmer

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:25 PM

Rhea, on Sep 16 2003, 09:06 AM, said:

GiGi, on Sep 16 2003, 12:17 AM, said:

PS Kimmer you will be neighbors with my mother in law.  And with what she is saying about Oregon having moved there from Oxnard a couple of years ago is none too encouraging.
The grass always looks greener on the other side...till you have to mow that lawn.  ;)  ;)

All states have pluses and minuses. I remember when I moved to Texas I was appalled at the sheer *number* of things you get taxed on individually just so that Texans can brag that they don't have state income tax!  :eek2:  :eek2:

In this case I get to be the anti-Kimmer (sorry, sweets):

I *LOVE* my state, in all its wacky glory. I wouldn't live anywhere else (and I've lived in a large number of other states and enjoyed them all).  :love:  :love:
Well, you and Mac may duke it out this Saturday. He's a native CA boy and he wants out of this state. We are aware the grass is greener until ... but our goal and desire has always been to live on the coast, and we simply cannot afford to do so in CA. It's a matter of economics for us.

Of course, the longer this state is mis-managed, the likelier it is that we won't be able to afford to move as the value of our home will go down.

Since I'm not a native, the only ties this state holds for me is Mac. :)


kimmer

PS: I am developing a great sense of disenfranchisement in regards to voting, period.

#49 Drew

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:32 PM

Here's a secret that the Professional Editors' Union (PE-U) knows that the common man does not. There is a usage limit on every word. Whenever a word is used in print, the odometer next to that word on the Big Board (located in a secret bunker in Kankakee) adds up another tick. In the days following the November 2000 Presidential election, the odometer next to "Disenfranchisement" was spinning like a Douglas Fir at a log-rolling contest.

Each word has an agreed-upon limit (set forth in the bylaws to the original PE-U charter).  When a word reaches its limit, it is removed from circulation for a period of time. During that time, a shadowy cabal of ancient scribes (about whom it is rumored that they are immortal) perform the arcane Rites of Assignation upon the word, setting its usage rules for the next cycle.

"Disenfranchisement" has been requiring some very complex rituals due to its misuse, and the scribes have informed me that it'll be quite some time before it's allowed back in general circulation.

This is all very hush-hush, you realize.  :ninja:
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#50 Rov Judicata

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 02:07 PM

ROFL John and Drew

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 16 September 2003 - 02:11 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

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~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#51 jon3831

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 04:28 PM

Update:

http://www.washingto...anguage=printer

Quote

A clerk at the 9th Circuit said the judges had voted to hold an en banc hearing of 11 judges to reconsider the case and had asked for lawyers to file briefs on the issue.

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#52 Banapis

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 05:18 PM

jon3831, on Sep 16 2003, 05:20 PM, said:

That makes more sense than what San Bernardino County is going to...

Looking at our new sample ballots, I'm not convinced that we're not looking at another Florida in a few years because of the arrows. Remember the butterfly ballot and the arrows that no one could follow?

http://www.ss.ca.gov...quoiaoptech.htm
That would be the only system I've ever voted on. ;)  It's childlike in its simplicity.  And a manual inspection of the ballot by a recount official in a close election will easily reveal for whom the vote was cast – no “divination” of chads necessary.

You connect the arrow that points directly at your choice by filling in the missing middle section of the arrow.  You know exactly who you voted for because you can see the arrow you just created.

Then you either feed your ballot directly into the processing machine or ask a poll worker to assist you.  If the machine encounters an error in reading the ballot it spits the ballot back out.  If the ballot is fine it proceeds to the locked secured compartment.

According to Step 3 of your own link, San Bernardino is using the “OpTechEagle.” This machine features:

Quote

AUTOMATIC VOTER ASSISTANCE
Ballots which have been over voted, mismarked or mutilated are automatically returned to the voter for review. The message tape instantly tells the voter why the ballot was returned. The voter then has an opportunity to correct their ballot. No one loses their vote for any reason.

http://sequoiavote.com/bEAGLE.php

The OpTech 400c central tabulating machine used in the Sequoia Vote initiative is “Designed to specifications for less than one misread per million ballots.”  

http://sequoiavote.com/bOPTECH400C.php

Less than ONE misread per million ballots.  Tell me again why anyone in this day and age should have to settle for the circa 1964 Votomatic?

Quote

Remember the butterfly ballot and the arrows that no one could follow?

I don't see how this compares with the infamous FL butterfly ballot... because what you just linked to is not a “butterfly ballot.”  It's a single column where the arrows to your selection all point the same way.

Here's a link to the butterfly ballot simulation at the Sun- Sentinel:

http://www.sun-senti...news/ballot.htm

As you can see, the arrows pointed both ways, always toward the center.  Thus, the “butterfly” ballot creates a 2x6 matrix instead of a single column.  This furthered the ballot designer's goal of getting all 10 candidates arranged along the same votomatic centerstrip.

The result was a situation where Al Gore was listed second on the ballot, but a vote for him had to be placed in the third hole -- not the second.  You had to take note of the irrelevant candidates on the other side of the butterfly ballot to recognize that the second hole was for Pat Buchanan.  

Additionally, in the FL election there were 19,000+ ballots double punched with votes for both Buchanan and Gore.  It's reasonable to assume this happened not because those people are insane,* but because there were 2 distinct holes next to Al Gore's name (holes 2 and 3) and voters thought you were to fill in both holes next to the choice (Note when you take the simulation featuring photographs of the actual machine and ballot used in Palm Beach election that the arrow does not point directly at hole 2 or 3.  There is no question as to which candidate the arrow is pointing at in the optical scan system).  

With a Butterfly ballot, people may not pay attention to the other side because they already think they've cast their vote for their candidate.  People are in a hurry.   They need to get back to work, to the kids, whatever.**  They may read what they think is important and cast their vote without paying any attention to the perpetually irrelevant "third party candidates."

That’s life in the real world.  

Quote

Besides, whatif the pen is out of ink?

In that event, you go up to the table where the poll workers sit and ask them for a new one.  

As your own link states in Step 2, you proceed “Using the pen provided by the poll worker..”  As you know, pens don’t just suddenly stop working.  First, they begin to lose their darkness and get lighter.  The poll worker tests the pen on a paper scrap before handing it to you to make sure it’s still going strong.  Some districts may hand out brand new pens.

There’s really no comparison between pens and the machine error inherent in the votomatic.  You know immediately when your pen isn’t working that your vote hasn’t been cast because you have nothing to cast it with.

Quote

Whatif the line isn't dark enough?

Then the ballot won’t process and triggers the events that I detailed above.  This isn’t going to happen though because the brand of pens provided have already been tested and approved by election officials.

Quote

Whatif it's crooked?

All you are filling in is the middle of the arrow.  The ends of the arrow, the beginning and the end, are already printed.  And the ends of the arrows are perfectly straight and lined up.

If you connected the base of one arrow to head of another arrow the Eagle will detect the error and tell you of your mistake in the printout.

Quote

Marin uses the Accuvote, don't they?

http://www.ss.ca.gov...tems/global.htm

That makes more sense than what San Bernardino County is going to...

I’m don’t see Accuvote as being any better.

Accuvote has you fill in an oval shaped bubble next to a name.

San Bernardino has you fill in a rectangle, thereby completing an arrow that boldly highlights your selection.

If I were a betting man, I’d say more people would fill in the bubble next to the wrong name than would fail to connect the right arrow.  When you’re done filling in the arrow you have a big, straightforward, solid arrow pointing squarely at your selection.

Quote

No matter what we do, there's going to be a certain amount of voter error that can't be avoided.

But modern systems like the Sequoia OpTech can detect any errors in reading the ballot, tell the voter exactly what mistake they made on the message tape, and allow the voter to correct that mistake.

If they just flat-out connect the wrong arrow, then there is nothing that could have been done.  It’s purely user error.

Quote

The question is, though, are we going to have a lawsuit for every election because of it?

It will only succeed if the machine in question is similar to the votomatic in producing an error rate completely out of whack with the technology available to the society. And in those cases, it should be an issue.

Banapis

* The other interpretation of how the 19,000 figure came about, of course, has raised the more sinister and controversial spectre of Republican vote tampering in FL after the state was called for Gore.  Proponents of the “Republican Theft Theory” will point to the fact that the national error rate of double-punching ballots is less than 1/2 of one percent, and, by that figure, should only have accounted for only 1,800 double punches in Palm Beach County -- instead of the staggering 19,000 double punches that resulted in the discarding of those votes.  They also note that the error only occurred in the selection of the presidential candidates, while one would expect a truly random error to have occurred throughout the butterfly ballot as a whole.  

** I’m a big proponent of a National Federal Election Holiday.  It could serve as a celebration of our country, our democracy, and our democratic values.  Not to mention, I think it would be *far* more effective at transmitting these values to the youth of America than rewriting sections of textbooks to be read as homework in school (as a recent study discussed here in the OT suggested. ;) )

#53 HubcapDave

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 07:09 PM

Quote

The result was a situation where Al Gore was listed second on the ballot, but a vote for him had to be placed in the third  hole -- not the second. You had to take note of the irrelevant candidates on the other side of the butterfly ballot to recognize that the second hole was for Pat Buchanan.

Yeah, but there is a big, fat arrow pointing right to the hole you're supposed to punch. You would have to be really damned stupid to not be able to figure it out!

Quote

Additionally, in the FL election there were 19,000+ ballots double punched with votes for both Buchanan and Gore. It's reasonable to assume this happened not because those people are insane,* but because there were 2 distinct holes next to Al Gore's name (holes 2 and 3) and voters thought you were to fill in both holes next to the choice (Note when you take the simulation featuring photographs of the actual machine and ballot used in Palm Beach election that the arrow does not point directly at hole 2 or 3. There is no question as to which candidate the arrow is pointing at in the optical scan system).

The simulation shows the ballot viewed at an angle of approx 40-50 degrees. In an actual machine you'd be able to view the ballot from any angle, including 90 degrees, which is when the holes line up perfectly.

I've heard the stories about the 19,000 double punched ballots, but I never heard: a) Whether they were actual cast ballots, or throwaway ballots that were exchanged so the person could re-vote, and b) that all 19,000 were double punched for Gore and Buchannon.


Quote

With a Butterfly ballot, people may not pay attention to the other side because they already think they've cast their vote for their candidate. People are in a hurry. They need to get back to work, to the kids, whatever.** They may read what they think is important and cast their vote without paying any attention to the perpetually irrelevant "third party candidates."

That?s life in the real world.

That doesn't excuse them. As with any other right, the right to vote comes with responsibility. In this case, it is the responsibility of the person voting to make sure the vote they cast is accurate. If they can't take a minute to read directions, and another minute to double check their vote, then perhaps they shouldn't be voting in the first place.


The basic problem with the punch card system is that it isn't Idiot-proof enough.

Edited by HubcapDave, 16 September 2003 - 07:10 PM.


#54 Banapis

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 08:08 PM

^ It wasn’t my intention at all to debate the FL election.  As Julius Caesar remarked, "People willingly believe what they want to believe."  :cool:

The point of my post was to illustrate how great the OpTech machines are.  The hanging, pregnant, and indented chads are peculiar to the votomatic regime – and there is no reason we should ever have to hear of them again. The mistake prone butterfly ballot is popular because of the limitations imposed by said votomatic machines.  And modern technology with its instant error checking of the ballots eliminates a lot of these issues.

Quote

That doesn't excuse them. As with any other right, the right to vote comes with responsibility. In this case, it is the responsibility of the person voting to make sure the vote they cast is accurate. In this case, it is the responsibility of the person voting to make sure the vote they cast is accurate. If they can't take a minute to read directions, and another minute to double check their vote, then perhaps they shouldn't be voting in the first place.

Nice theory, but as I said, I’m talking about the real world.  And, I might add that there would be more time to double-check if people didn’t have to rush off to work. (Yes, shameless plug for a National Election Holiday :D )

As for the special “responsibility” required of voters to double-check if the votomatic machine frelled up as quid pro quo for one’s right to vote… I must have missed that clause of the Constitution.  Not to mention it’s repugnant to the concept of equal protection to impose any such “responsibility” on certain people just because their district is so poor that they have to put up with votamatic machines, while wealthier districts who don’t use votomatics have no such “responsibility” imposed on them.  

There’s no question punch-card systems were great and wonderful things when they first came upon the scene.  

Then again, so were 8 tracks.

Banapis

#55 Anakam

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 09:53 PM

John Burke, on Sep 16 2003, 06:22 PM, said:

Hmm, annoying buzzword or not, I don't see how you can ban the word "disenfranchisement" from a discussion about a decision on... well... disenfranchisement.  :ninja:

Therefore, the Orbis Terrarum Enfranchisement of the Disenfranchised Fund will be established to collect quatloos to pay the bill for those who feel they must use the word. 

*Contributes ten quatloos himself*

Actually, make it eight.  I'm gonna use two of them myself:

Disenfranchisement.

:angel:
And the invoice for my new keyboard is on its way.... :angel:

:p :p :p

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#56 Rhea

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:34 AM

Banapis, on Sep 16 2003, 06:08 PM, said:

^ It wasn’t my intention at all to debate the FL election.  As Julius Caesar remarked, "People willingly believe what they want to believe."  :cool:

The point of my post was to illustrate how great the OpTech machines are.  The hanging, pregnant, and indented chads are peculiar to the votomatic regime – and there is no reason we should ever have to hear of them again. The mistake prone butterfly ballot is popular because of the limitations imposed by said votomatic machines.  And modern technology with its instant error checking of the ballots eliminates a lot of these issues.

Quote

That doesn't excuse them. As with any other right, the right to vote comes with responsibility. In this case, it is the responsibility of the person voting to make sure the vote they cast is accurate. In this case, it is the responsibility of the person voting to make sure the vote they cast is accurate. If they can't take a minute to read directions, and another minute to double check their vote, then perhaps they shouldn't be voting in the first place.

Nice theory, but as I said, I’m talking about the real world.  And, I might add that there would be more time to double-check if people didn’t have to rush off to work. (Yes, shameless plug for a National Election Holiday :D )

As for the special “responsibility” required of voters to double-check if the votomatic machine frelled up as quid pro quo for one’s right to vote… I must have missed that clause of the Constitution.  Not to mention it’s repugnant to the concept of equal protection to impose any such “responsibility” on certain people just because their district is so poor that they have to put up with votamatic machines, while wealthier districts who don’t use votomatics have no such “responsibility” imposed on them.  

There’s no question punch-card systems were great and wonderful things when they first came upon the scene.  

Then again, so were 8 tracks.

Banapis
xWhat Banapis said.

Furthermore, assuming that everyone voting has the same IQ (or ought to) and will therefore have no problems regardless of the voting system is like assuming that everyone who drives a car has a degree in mechanical engineering. And it disenfranchises the elderly (who often have vision and other problems) and those with a less than sterling IQ.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#57 G-man

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:46 AM

Actually, it is the voter's responsibility, no matter how the votes are cast, that what is reflected on the ballot accurately respresents what he intended to put on the ballot.

/s/

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#58 Drew

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:59 AM

No matter what ballot system is put in place, there will always be one somewhere that causes a greater degree of error. That's simple statistics. No system is 100% accurate, and there's always going to be one county that's the least-accurate in the state.

What must be decided--and decided soon--is what margin of error is acceptable (because there will ALWAYS be errors.) If any method of voting falls within this margin, then the election must proceed. An election must not be held up for fear of a few inconsequential errors. (Particularly when those errors are easily avoidable if people would take the time to make sure that they're doing it right. The elderly--or anyone who has trouble understanding the ballots--have the right to request assistance. If they don't request assistance, they have no right to cry that they've been D-worded.)
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#59 Drew

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 10:04 AM

Also, it would seem to make sense that any recall petitions in the future require more signatures than the number of votes cast for that elected official (which, as I understand, was not the case here). Otherwise, a well-organized minority will *always* be able to recall an elected official, and this simply isn't right.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#60 Rhea

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 12:04 PM

G-man, on Sep 17 2003, 07:46 AM, said:

Actually, it is the voter's responsibility, no matter how the votes are cast, that what is reflected on the ballot accurately respresents what he intended to put on the ballot.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Of course it is. But it is also the state's reponsibility to ensure that whatever ballot system they use is as transparent to the voter as possible.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



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