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Californian recall election delayed

Election California Recall 2003

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#81 Rhea

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 09:57 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Sep 18 2003, 07:33 AM, said:

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Banapis: It has been my experience that "common sense" isn't very common at all.

At some point-- in a democracy-- you have to trust the voters. Everybody knows by now the problems with punchcards; this isn't that difficult. You poke the hole. The directions explicitly say to double check your ballot, and if you screw up the first time, you can get another one.

The problem with this is that it's anti-innovation; using the court's logic (which centered around alleged inequality, not decertification), no election can ever be held if the voting systems are different (since all voting systems have different error rates).

I await the ACLU asking to delay the 2004 presidential election because some states don't have uniform voting systems. Expect to be able to vote for Dean or Clark in 2016.
LOL! Perhaps if we'd had a uniform voting system in Florida we'd have a different president today. Who knows? Certainly, Bush didn't win the popular vote.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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#82 Drew

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 10:00 AM

Rhea, on Sep 18 2003, 09:55 AM, said:

I'd just as soon get the election over with, personally. But I'd like to be clear about WHY there was an issue in the first place.
Oh, that's easy. This is an issue because a Democrat might get voted out of office. It wouldn't be an issue if Davis was a Republican.  :cool: Heck, there wouldn't have even been a recall effort. But because we have a well-organized anti-Davis gang on the right, and the ACLU/9th Circuit Cabal on the left, we have . . . a three-ring circus!

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They AREN'T considered good enough - they're antiquated and inaccurate

"Antiquated" doesn't mean "won't work." It just means "old." (Check-the-box is "antiquated," too, but probably pretty accurate.) And the question that must be asked is "How inaccurate?" Again, the margin of error must be established (by law?), and only if a method falls outside that margin of error should anything be done. Otherwise, if it was considered an acceptable method last time, why isn't it this time?

Edited by Drew, 18 September 2003 - 10:04 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#83 Rov Judicata

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 10:25 AM

Drew, on Sep 18 2003, 07:36 AM, said:

Exactly. Though they'll probably wait until after the election to see if a Democrat wins first.  :cool:
Nah. It only works if they complain beforehand.

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Perhaps if we'd had a uniform voting system in Florida we'd have a different president today. Who knows?

No argument here.

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Certainly, Bush didn't win the popular vote.

And sometimes the team that gets more yardage loses the football game.  And can you imagine the chaos if the prisidency *was* based on the popular vote? I'm imagining recounts and voting discrepancies in 50 states.... :look:
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#84 Drew

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 10:28 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Sep 18 2003, 10:25 AM, said:

Drew, on Sep 18 2003, 07:36 AM, said:


Exactly. Though they'll probably wait until after the election to see if a Democrat wins first.  :cool:
Nah. It only works if they complain beforehand.
2000 proved the opposite. The voting machines being used were considered just fine--until Bush won.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#85 Rhea

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 11:21 AM

Drew, on Sep 18 2003, 08:28 AM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on Sep 18 2003, 10:25 AM, said:

Drew, on Sep 18 2003, 07:36 AM, said:


Exactly. Though they'll probably wait until after the election to see if a Democrat wins first.  :cool:
Nah. It only works if they complain beforehand.
2000 proved the opposite. The voting machines being used were considered just fine--until Bush won.
Until Bush won without a majority of the votes, you mean.  If a Democrat had won the electoral votes and not the popular vote, the Republicans would have been right there dscreaming for  a recount as well. It's not like it's a plot by the liberal left to unseat a president who won with a clear majority, ya know.  :p  Any time an election is that close there's always a furor.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#86 Drew

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 11:43 AM

Rhea, on Sep 18 2003, 11:21 AM, said:

Until Bush won without a majority of the votes, you mean.  If a Democrat had won the electoral votes and not the popular vote, the Republicans would have been right there dscreaming for  a recount as well.
I'm not so sure about that. They certainly didn't in our state where there were plenty of shenanigans by Democrats that should have made Gore's win here (by less than 6,000 votes) very questionable.

Edited by Drew, 18 September 2003 - 11:44 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#87 GiGi

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 11:56 AM

Those Votomatic machines should have been tossed a long time ago.  Where I vote we use a pen and fill in the blanks, can't get simpler than that.

I am annoyed with the utter waste of this whole exercise, and we would WASTE another 30 Million if the election is delayed.  What nonsense.

BUT, as far as I know, after the Florida voting fiasco, one in which Bush's brother the Governor promised to deliver him the state, there was some decree that all of the offending machines... i.e. the votomatics had to be replaced by a certain amount of time.  We have reached that time and since the next election was supposed to be in March, no one knew the deadline to make replacements would come early.  I could be wrong about this, but I had heard this reasoning a few months ago when changing the election then would not have cost any money.

Anyway the bottomline is not that voters are dumb be they rich or poor, it is that the votomatic is seriously flawed, has been for a while.  These machines have caused problems many times before, but didn't come into the spotlight until the situation in Florida gained national attention.

At this point they are having a large number of absentee ballots coming in so it may not matter.  I was going to request one myself, but now I don't know what is up.  That is the worst of it.  I think folks on both sides of the political fence are a problem.  BOTH!  Hmmmm, I think now would be a good time for one of my favorite scifi quotes of ALL time (thank you Zack and Ash)....

"I am so sick of this, you two, with your violence and your threats and your shooting stuff. Neither of you gets it, do you? There isn't enough love in the universe as it is, and you're both just helping to kill off what's left. So shape up, because if you don't show each other a little peace, love, and understanding, I'm going to kill you both."

-Trance Gemini in "Fear & Loathing"
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#88 Anakam

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 01:57 PM

^
Mmm, good Trance quote. :D :D

I've often paraphrased that one to good effect. ;)
Sailing free, boundless glimmer, golden whispers, fiery poise, delicate balance, grave and true, bound by earth, feared horizons, courageous steps unknown, shimmering future hidden yet unveiled....

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#89 Rhea

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:02 PM

What Gigi said. On all counts. :p :p
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#90 Bad Wolf

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 03:24 PM

Quote

"I am so sick of this, you two, with your violence and your threats and your shooting stuff. Neither of you gets it, do you? There isn't enough love in the universe as it is, and you're both just helping to kill off what's left. So shape up, because if you don't show each other a little peace, love, and understanding, I'm going to kill you both."

:D  :D  :D
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#91 HubcapDave

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 06:14 PM

Quote

Certainly, Bush didn't win the popular vote.


And sometimes the team that gets more yardage loses the football game. And can you imagine the chaos if the prisidency *was* based on the popular vote? I'm imagining recounts and voting discrepancies in 50 states.... [lookaround.gif]

Javert, I don't think I've ever heard the rebuttal to that argument ever put so eloquently! It is an excellent analogy!

#92 Drew

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 08:26 AM

I was expecting this:

Church-State Watchdog Group Asks IRS to Probe Clinton-Davis Rally

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A Los Angeles church that hosted a political rally for Gov. Gray Davis during Sept. 14 services should be investigated by the Internal Revenue Service, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Several newspapers reported Sept. 15 that former President Bill Clinton spoke from the pulpit of the First African Methodist Episcopal Church. Clinton exhorted the congregation to vote against the effort to recall Davis, telling attendees, “Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t shred your Constitution. Don’t shred the fabric of government. Don’t tell people Californians are so impatient that they give somebody an employment contract and then tear it up in the middle because times are tough. This is the right thing to do, to beat this recall.”

Davis himself also addressed the congregants, remarking, “This recall threatens the very fabric of democracy. It is not good for you, it is not good for California. I ask that you defeat it.”

In addition, the church’s pastor, the Rev. Cecil Murray, told the congregation that Davis is “our vital warrior” and “we are his posse.” According to The Washington Post, Murray “urged his flock to renounce the recall.” The paper also noted that “in attendance were dozens of elected Democrats.”

Americans United Executive Director Barry W. Lynn said the church-run event clearly crossed the line into partisan politicking.

“I believe any fair-minded person would conclude that this event, coming just three weeks before the scheduled recall election, was designed to influence voters to retain Davis in office,” Lynn wrote today in a letter to Steven T. Miller, director of the IRS’s Exempt Organizations Division. “As such, it would seem to be a clear violation of the church’s tax-exempt status.”

Lynn urged the IRS to conduct an investigation and “apply any penalties you deem appropriate.”

Federal tax law bars churches and other organizations with a 501©3 tax-exempt status to engage in political activities on behalf of (or against) any candidate for public office.

Since the IRS likes to bully conservative evangelical congregations for providing voter-information brochures, I wonder if they'll bully the Clinton/Davis gang, too?
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#93 Kimmer

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 10:12 AM

Drew, on Sep 19 2003, 06:26 AM, said:

Since the IRS likes to bully conservative evangelical congregations for providing voter-information brochures, I wonder if they'll bully the Clinton/Davis gang, too?
Hubby and I were talking about this last night, and wondered if there would be any flack. Fair is fair, and if conservative churches cannot discuss politics/disseminate political information from the pulpit, then the liberal churches should not be allowed to do so either.


kimmer

#94 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 11:10 AM

An interesting question about separation church and state.

If the argument is that the church should not be in the state (like the ten commandments should not be prominently displayed in the front rotunda of a court house), should it not also be true that the state should not be in the church (e.g., Clinton or anyone else using a church to advance their political agenda).

Lil
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#95 Drew

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 11:34 AM

Maybe this needs a new thread, but I've seen these voter-info brochures that got certain people all hot-and-bothered enough to sic the IRS on a few churches. The ones I've seen list all the candidates and their positions on various issues and are fairly benign. (Granted, the issues they choose to highlight are generally issues of concern to conservatives.) I've never heard politicking from the pulpit, and I would be annoyed if I did.* What Clinton and Davis did is pretty outrageous. I've heard (but haven't confirmed) that they solicited donations for the cause, too, which is exactly what got Gore in trouble at the Buddhist temple.

-----------
*Actually, now that I think about it, about ten years ago we had a guest speaker at our church who started yammering about the evils of Communism as if it were 1960 and the cold war was still going strong. (This happened *after* the collapse of the soviet union, too.) I was so annoyed I walked out of the service--still the only time I have ever done that. I later learned that I wasn't the only one, and that quite a few people complained to the elder board, insisting that this guest speaker never be invited back.

Edited by Drew, 19 September 2003 - 11:37 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#96 Bad Wolf

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 12:10 PM

Yeah I think a new thread would be cool as this is an issue that is distinct from the recall issue.:)

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#97 Rhea

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 12:16 PM

I have to agree that a church service is not the appropriate time or place for a political rally.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#98 Kimmer

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 12:51 PM

Drew, on Sep 19 2003, 09:34 AM, said:

Maybe this needs a new thread, but I've seen these voter-info brochures that got certain people all hot-and-bothered enough to sic the IRS on a few churches.
Back in the early 1990's there were several Baptist churches in big trouble because the preacher had made comments on the upcoming election. The legal beagles went to work, and the next time my then boss went to a district meeting, the legal beagles were there and explained that it is violation of the regs that cover non-profit status for churches and other non-profits (obviously excluding a politic non-profit if there is one) to talk about politics from the pulpit.

Comments can be made in a non-service meeting (ie: a fellowship) that is held in a building other than the sanctuary, and it is legal to have brochures and fliers in the back of the church for members and guestst to take. However, no mention of said brochures may be made from the pulpit, in the bulletin, or monthly newsletters.

It's all very complicated, and I can't quote you the exact laws any more as I don't work at the church :D  but I do know that what was done with mr. clinton was against all the non-profite regs. It would take someone filing against them though, before anything is done. I don't have the money, or I'd consider it.  :devil:


kimmer



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