Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Lawmakers exempt from Obamacare

Health Care Obamacare 2013 Exemptions for Congress

  • Please log in to reply
76 replies to this topic

#61 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 3,927 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:25 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 06 August 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostKota, on 06 August 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:


I understand where you are coming from,
but the government is counting on people in our age group to carry the load.

Well, at least for me, the government can go screw itself.

I second that.

Anything that is forced on the public but the politicians are exempt from CANNOT be a good thing.  If it was so good, then they should be included.  At the very least, give the APPEARANCE to everyone that it's good by being a part of it.  Lead by example... but I suppose such a philosophy is completely alien to them.

Hell, didn't I hear that even the head of the IRS didn't want to do it because he thought it was a bad idea?

#62 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:00 AM

FarscapeOne, read the posts on page one. The title of this thread is incorrect.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#63 Cait

Cait

    Democracy Dies in Darkness

  • Moderator
  • 10,810 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:13 AM

View Postscherzo, on 06 August 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:


Romney could have supported same sex marriage, amnesty for illegal aliens, Dodd-Frank, and taxpayer funded abortion...and still be well to the political right of 0bama. Especially since he specifically promised to rid us of 0bamacare. Are we really going to pretend for the cameras that 0bama ISN'T a Statist now? :think:

LOL, so now you're judging politicians on what they "promise to do" and not they "actually" did?  Interest twist of logic.  As for Obama being a statist, can you honestly say that anyone in national politics is NOT a statist?  Partisan politics is all about which brand of statism the individual prefers.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#64 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostCait, on 07 August 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

View Postscherzo, on 06 August 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:


Romney could have supported same sex marriage, amnesty for illegal aliens, Dodd-Frank, and taxpayer funded abortion...and still be well to the political right of 0bama. Especially since he specifically promised to rid us of 0bamacare. Are we really going to pretend for the cameras that 0bama ISN'T a Statist now? :think:

LOL, so now you're judging politicians on what they "promise to do" and not they "actually" did?  Interest twist of logic.
So on your planet the "logical" thing to do would be support the candidate who promises to deploy 0bamacare, over the candidate who promised to eliminate it.

No wonder you found my post funny.  :dontgetit:

Quote

As for Obama being a statist, can you honestly say that anyone in national politics is NOT a statist?
Of course I can. But I have the advantage of actually knowing what the word means.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#65 Cait

Cait

    Democracy Dies in Darkness

  • Moderator
  • 10,810 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 01:33 PM

View Postscherzo, on 06 August 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

So on your planet the "logical" thing to do would be support the candidate who promises to deploy 0bamacare, over the candidate who promised to eliminate it.

No wonder you found my post funny.  :dontgetit:

No, as usual, you miss my point.  I'd never suggest that a conservative actually vote for Obama.  There is nothing there that falls in line with a conservative's ideology.  I'd just expect that a conservative would not use the "Romney said he would repeal it meme" to defend a vote for Romney.  There were plenty of reasons for Americans to vote for Romney, his promise to repeal Obamacare [given his record] just wasn't one of them.  He would have never got the nomination if he had said anything else.  There are political realities and then there are political realities.

Sooo, I found your post funny because it revealed the customary partisan mindset.  The "Any [insert political party here] is better than [insert the other political party here] mindset despite any actual record in office.  I always find that amusing.


Quote

Of course I can. But I have the advantage of actually knowing what the word means.

So you don't believe that statism  includes social policy as well as economic policy?  Interesting.  Convenient, but interesting.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#66 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:36 PM

Quote

There were plenty of reasons for Americans to vote for Romney, his promise to repeal Obamacare [given his record] just wasn't one of them.
Sure it was. Even if Romney and 0bama were perfectly in sync on every other issue under the sun. There were 2 names on the ballot. One says he'll kill 0bamacare...the other is guaranteed to do everything possible to punish this country with it. Tell me who a conservative "logically" votes for in this circumstance?
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#67 Kota

Kota
  • Islander
  • 417 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 04:39 PM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 07 August 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

View PostLord of the Sword, on 06 August 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostKota, on 06 August 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

I understand where you are coming from,
but the government is counting on people in our age group to carry the load.

Well, at least for me, the government can go screw itself.

I second that.

Anything that is forced on the public but the politicians are exempt from CANNOT be a good thing.  If it was so good, then they should be included.  At the very least, give the APPEARANCE to everyone that it's good by being a part of it.  Lead by example... but I suppose such a philosophy is completely alien to them.

Hell, didn't I hear that even the head of the IRS didn't want to do it because he thought it was a bad idea?

Yes you heard correctly, IRS chief Daniel Werfel says he wants to keep his health care plan, not switch to Obamacare:

this is his quote from the video on page 1

Quote

"I don't want to speak for the NTEU, but I'll offer a perspective as a federal employee myself and a federal employee at the IRS," said the IRS chief. "And that is, we have right now as employees of the government, of the IRS, affordable health care coverage. I think the ACA was designed to provide an option or an alternative for individuals that do not. And all else being equal, I think if you're an individual who is satisfied with your health care coverage, you're probably in a better position to stick with that coverage than go through the change of moving into a different environment and going through that process. So I think for a federal employee, I think more likely, and I would -- can speak for myself, I would prefer to stay with the current policy that I'm pleased with rather than go through a change if I don't need to go through that change."

The bold text is what I and many of the people I know keep saying.
I'm happy with my insurance and don't want to change to a government controlled, IRS enforced anything.

#68 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 05:01 PM

And people who are currently insured through work do not have to shop for new insurance through the Marketplace. For those folks, unless they are federal employees, nothing changes.

The problem, as explained on page 1, is that unlike everyone else, Congress and federal employees do have to give up their current, government-provided insurance.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#69 Kota

Kota
  • Islander
  • 417 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

Quote

For those that get your insurance through your work...


Yup, you are grandfathered in under your current policy from your employer,
however companies change insurance over time.

So you'll lose your grandfathered status, its just a matter of when.

Welcome to Obamacare

Quote

do not have to shop for new insurance through the Marketplace.

Some companies may select the plan for it's employees
Or perhaps they will allow you to pick your own, remains to be seen

#70 Dev F

Dev F

    Straighten your pope hat!

  • Islander
  • 3,757 posts

Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:47 PM

View Postscherzo, on 06 August 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

So no big deal then. Vast new federal law will cause people to lose their jobs, but not quite as many as some say. Coolness.
In other words, "Who cares if the research is being deliberately misinterpreted and the problem overstated by a factor of ten, as long as it's kinda sorta true for a small minority of businesses surveyed?" So nice to see that truthiness is still alive.

Quote

Then there's that matter of Obamacare causing business' to drop their employee coverage altogether, but that will likely only affect 10 to 20 million give or take, so it was still totally worth it.
Well, the latest CBO estimate is 7 million. In a country where around 160 million people get insurance from their employer, that's only about 4 percent. A figure that will be offset by the Medicaid expansion and more affordable individual insurance options through the ACA exchanges.

Quote

To y'know...move the Statist agenda along.
Do you honestly believe that liberals are pushing health care reform because of some abstract interest in expanding government power? That's mustache-twirling nonsense. They're motivated simply by a belief that the free market requires prudent government oversight to safeguard people against the negative forces that naked capitalism alone cannot put a damper on. It's not a radical notion; it's why there are laws to, say, prohibit child labor and monitor the purity of food, and few people would disagree that such government safeguards are just and necessary. And yet conservatives insist on turning a pragmatic debate over what degree of government oversight is necessary into an ideological shouting match that brands any new oversight as unthinkably un-American.

It's worth noting, too, that the laws that kept children from toiling away in factories and consumers from dropping dead of poisoned food surely had an immediate financial cost to some Americans, whether it was the families of working children who were deprived a source of income or the businesses that had to shut down because they couldn't afford to keep up with food purity laws. But it would be silly to assume that any economic downside invalidated the whole effort, because the upside -- in terms of public health, in terms of the long-term health of the economy -- far outweighed it.

So it is with the ACA. Conservatives seem to have forgotten, in their quixotic efforts to repeal Obamacare and replace it with nothing, why Democrats and Republicans alike started pursuing health care reform in the first place: because health care costs are one of the biggest drags on the financial health of both the federal government and the citizens of this nation. Obamacare is certainly not perfect, but it is a good first step in the efforts to bend the cost curve toward sustainability. And despite the scary articles that Kota has been quoting, the prices on the ACA exchanges have actually been coming in significantly lower than expected, particularly in states such as California that are implementing the program in good faith instead of stonewalling and stalling to make the Democrats look bad.

Finally, it's funny to see an Obamacare opponent suggesting that any loss of insurance coverage invalidates the whole law, since repealing Obamacare would likely cause much more significant losses of coverage -- people with preexisting conditions, young people whom ACA allows to stay on their parents' insurance longer, people who would be subject to recission if the ACA weren't around to prohibit it. And unlike those who might lose employer coverage under the ACA, the Republican's replacement plan of [footage not found] offers them no alternatives once their coverage is gone.

#71 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:44 AM

View PostDev F, on 07 August 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

View Postscherzo, on 06 August 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

So no big deal then. Vast new federal law will cause people to lose their jobs, but not quite as many as some say. Coolness.
In other words, "Who cares if the research is being deliberately misinterpreted and the problem overstated by a factor of ten, as long as it's kinda sorta true for a small minority of businesses surveyed?" So nice to see that truthiness is still alive.
Y'know... I let it go before Dev, but YOU deliberately misinterpreted "right wingers" in your post linking to PolitiFact. All Rubio did was pass on information he read in a Washington Examiner article which was ostensibly based on a US Chamber of Commerce study. So if you wanna toss around cutesy poo words like truthiness I suggest you get a better grasp on the truth yourself.

Not that that's really possible when you're breathlessly defending a law that was passed using deception and coercion. You also clearly have no problem at all with the fact that NO ONE READ THE F**KING THING before voting to make it the law of the land. So on your second tedious point...YES the Democrat Party only cared about expanding their power. They're relying on people like you to spin the disastrous results into something that sounds intelligent to the very stupid.  Increasing dependency and demonizing all opposition are literally the only cards in their deck at this point.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#72 Dev F

Dev F

    Straighten your pope hat!

  • Islander
  • 3,757 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:37 AM

View Postscherzo, on 08 August 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Y'know... I let it go before Dev, but YOU deliberately misinterpreted "right wingers" in your post linking to PolitiFact. All Rubio did was pass on information he read in a Washington Examiner article which was ostensibly based on a US Chamber of Commerce study.
So all right-winger Rubio did was to uncritically parrot a right-wing newspaper's report that misrepresented a study by a right-wing business group that was deceptively presented in the first place. (It was the Examiner that incorrectly assumed the reported percentages were additive, while the Chamber of Commerce itself failed to make it clear until queried by Politifact that the numbers represented a subset of a subset.) At every point in that chain of foolishness a right-wing opponent of Obamacare is to blame.

Quote

Not that that's really possible when you're breathlessly defending a law that was passed using deception and coercion. You also clearly have no problem at all with the fact that NO ONE READ THE F**KING THING before voting to make it the law of the land. So on your second tedious point...YES the Democrat Party only cared about expanding their power.
So they had no idea what the law would do . . . but they knew it would expand their power? This is not even a coherent argument anymore. You're just throwing out Stock Obamacare Attacks Nos. 2 and 4 ("Every bill is passed through horse-trading and political gamesmanship, but in this one case it's horrible somehow!"; "No one even read the ACA bill, even though its details were debated extensively and the whole thing was reviewed and scored by the CBO!") and hoping I won't notice that you didn't actually address any of my points.

#73 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:06 AM

Quote

So they had no idea what the law would do . . . but they knew it would expand their power?
:) Uh Dev...they didn't read it...but knew it would expand their power.

Just like I didn't read your extended defense of big government...but knew it would bore me.

Not that complicated.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#74 Dev F

Dev F

    Straighten your pope hat!

  • Islander
  • 3,757 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:18 AM

Fantastic. Thanks for conceding that you have no way of addressing my actual arguments! Sorry your last attempt at a "gotcha" didn't work out.

Special kudos for suggesting that bringing up child labor laws and food purity standards amounts to a "defense of big government" and not "defense of a minimally acceptable level of government."

Edited by Dev F, 08 August 2013 - 09:19 AM.


#75 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 11:15 AM

View Postscherzo, on 02 August 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Quote

Even if this were true, and it's not btw, but if it were true, Insurance companies already decide what services you can have and which ones they will deny.  They have been doing that for a very long time.  I don't quite get the difference between a government bureaucrat and a corporate bureaucrat making these decisions.
Corporate number crunchers do not have the authority of government. A patient has no where to turn if government has absolute control of his healthcare and denies treatment under their own ironclad regulations.

No, they have the authority of the bottom line, and once they cancel your insurance, and they do it fast, you have no options.

As for the options I have with my government health care, when the VA denies something, I appeal, and I almost always win.  I've had more places to turn with the VA than I ever did with private health care.
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#76 Kota

Kota
  • Islander
  • 417 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 02:08 PM

Posted Image



#77 Balderdash

Balderdash
  • Islander
  • 5,729 posts

Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:50 PM

^^^

Oh Kota found a big ole, giant, colorful sign that says stuff that because it's written on the sign, it must be true.
I guess that's good because now none of us have to worry about the truth of anything.  I sure hope that Kota
can find big, colorful signs for all of the stuff we worry about...

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Health Care, Obamacare, 2013, Exemptions for Congress

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users