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Manning refused hormone therapy by military

Bradley Manning Military Transgender LGBT 2013

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#1 Cait

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 06:53 PM

OK, this case has gotten very complicated, or simple depending on how you look at it.  I know he got 35 years, and he is now at Leavenworth beginning his term, but apparently he has come out as a transgender.  OK.  I'll admit when I first saw it on FB, I thought it was a joke, but if he is TG, then OK, he is TG.

I certainly don't want to inflame the LGBT here on EI, but I'm not particularly supportive here when it comes to using taxpayer money for what amounts to elective medical treatment.  Please don't jump all over me, but I think part of the freedom to be who and what we are is all about freeing the taxpayers from supporting it.  

http://www.huffingto..._n_3798223.html


Quote


Chelsea Manning's lack of access to hormone therapy in military prison could spark a lawsuit and potentially set a military-wide precedent for transgender servicemembers.

On Thursday, one day after she was sentenced to 35 years in prison for sending classified documents to WikiLeaks, Manning confirmed what had been suspected for years: that she identified as a woman and no longer wanted to be called Bradley. But as Manning arrived at military prison in Fort Leavenworth, Kan., officials there said that they do not offer the hormone therapy that Manning has said she wants, and which accepted medical practice says could be used to treat her diagnosed gender dysphoria.

Manning's defense attorney David Coombs vowed Thursday to do "everything in my power to make sure they are forced" to provide her hormone therapy at Fort Leavenworth. But because the prison is citing an Army regulation banning transgender people serving in the military as its basis for denying Manning treatment, it will only provide her hormone therapy if it is forced to.


Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#2 Spectacles

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:40 PM

Elective medical treatment?  I dunno about that, Cait. :)

I have a trans housemate. He transitioned about twelve years ago. For him and for other transgendered folk, changing your gender is a choice like being gay is a choice: meaning not so much.

My feeling is this: If it is recognized as a medical condition with a therapy covered by most insurances, inmates should have it, too.

http://thinkprogress...rder/?mobile=nc

Quote

Until now, the term “gender identity disorder” has been used to diagnose people who are transgender. For conservatives, this has provided rhetorical carte blanche to describe the entire trans committee as disordered, delusional, and mentally ill. In some cases, this diagnosis has even been used to discriminate against trans people, with claims that they are unfit parents or employees, as examples. On the other hand, insurance companies have been more willing to cover the expenses associated with transition under this language, because treatment for a disorder is considered medically necessary, rather than cosmetic.

The new manual will diagnose transgender people with “Gender Dysphoria,” which communicates the emotional distress that can result from “a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender.” This will allow for affirmative treatment and transition care without the stigma of disorder. Earlier this year, the APA also released new health guidelines for transgender patients, as well as a position statement affirming transgender care and civil rights. Both documents align with a new standard for respecting trans people in the medical community.

Edited by Spectacles, 22 August 2013 - 07:41 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#3 Spectacles

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:48 PM

And more from this link in the OP:

Quote

Lauren McNamara, a transgender woman who testified on Manning's behalf, seemed surprised when told about the military prison's policies, which she called an "extraordinary problem."
"I don't think people understand what hormone-replacement therapy does," she said. "This is something that's the best anti-depressant, anti-anxiety drug I have ever been on."
Manning has been diagnosed with and received medication for both conditions.
"Denying people access to this treatment just because they're in prison is simply inhumane," added McNamara, who wrote about her court-martial testimony about her Internet chats with the young soldier in "The Humanity of Private Manning."
"Can you just imagine not giving someone, say, blood pressure drugs in prison when they needed them," she asked. "But because this has become some politicized notion of identity and choice and so on, and people act as though this were a controversial thing, rather than a medical condition, they think it's okay to deny people this."

I'll add that my housemate is a veteran and he received hormone therapy from the VA. In fact, the Veteran's Administration has never blinked an eye as a female veteran became a male veteran--accepting the new name, the new identity and honoring the service rendered by this person.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#4 sierraleone

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:48 PM



They didn't even mention where Manning is in a male prison or a female one. I'd imagine being transgendered comes with a number of extra difficulties inside a prison, whether or not one is in a prison with people of the same gender the transgendered identity with.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#5 Cait

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:53 PM

A fair point Specs.  But, and correct me if I'm wrong, being TG isn't a medical condition as in the patient will die without lifesaving treatment.  I'm not talking about choice in terms of choosing to be TG, I'd agree that isn't a choice any more than being gay is.  I'm talking about treatment that up until now he has gone without, which makes it elective imo.  He elected to go without treatment, just as he now elects to get it.  What is different now?

As for your comment re" if insurance pays for it, he should get it. I don't agree.  At all.  Insurance companies cover plastic surgery in  a lot of cases.  Do we now offer plastic surgery to every inmate that has a facial scar, or has received a beating and now needs a nose job?  As a taxpayer, I'm not at all comfortable covering every medical need that isn't necessary. Some people are desperate to get these treatments.  Would we be encouraging crime in order to go to prison to get them?  Is medical coverage in  prison [or military prison] now better than for a  law abiding citizen?  

And, before I ever got on board [which I'll be honest, isn't likely to happen in this case] I'd want to see some evidence of his being TG before his conviction.  Saying you want to serve your prison sentence as a woman strikes the cynic in me as awfully convenient.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#6 Spectacles

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:10 PM

^Yep. I read that he'll likely be placed with male inmates.

I'm really pissed off about the Ft. Leavenworth spokespersons remarks here:

Quote

Ft. Leavenworth spokeswoman Kimberly Lewis told Courthouse News that treatment for transgender inmates does not extend beyond psychiatric care.
"All inmates are considered soldiers and are treated as such with access to mental health professionals, including a psychiatrist, psychologist, social workers and behavioral science noncommissioned officers with experience in addressing the needs of military personnel in pre- and post-trial confinement," Lewis said in an email. "The Army does not provide hormone therapy or sex-reassignment surgery for gender identity disorder."

That's simply not true--at least not for veterans. I know this for a fact. So I did some digging:


http://www.disabilit...oneeligible.cfm



Quote

VA Makes Transgendered Veterans Hormone-Eligible


In a very quietly issued memo issued to its hospitals and clinics, the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) announced it approved hormones for transgendered veterans. Further, transgendered veterans' regular health benefits will include pre- and post-surgical care for gender change surgery, as well as mental health counseling.

The VA's directive drew distinctive limits to what would be allowed under these new benefits. The VA did specifically note transgendered veterans' routine care should consider their special needs. Those special needs include hormone therapy, according to the VA.

And:

http://transequality...rans_Health.pdf

Quote

The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) has issued a Directive to all of its facilities establishing a policy of respectful delivery of healthcare to transgender and intersex veterans who are enrolled in the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) healthcare system or are otherwise eligible for VA care. This Directive is an important first step in securing equal access for transgender veterans, and healthcare access for transgender people generally, by setting an example of how healthcare providers in both the public and private sector should be treating transgender patients.

SUMMARY OF NEW DIRECTIVE
The new directive does several things:

Indicates that all VA staff are to
provide care to transgender patients

without discrimination
in a manner consistent with care and management of all Veteran patients;”

Clearly states that all personal information about
transgender status and medical care is
kept confidential;

Reiterates that, under existing regulations, sex reassignment surgery cannot be performed or
paid for by the VA;

Reiterates that
all other medically necessary healthcare for transgender veterans is
covered
, including sex-specific care like mammograms and pap smears, as well as transition-
related care such as hormones and mental health services

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#7 sierraleone

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:12 PM

View PostCait, on 22 August 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

And, before I ever got on board [which I'll be honest, isn't likely to happen in this case] I'd want to see some evidence of his being TG before his conviction.  Saying you want to serve your prison sentence as a woman strikes the cynic in me as awfully convenient.

From your own link:

Quote

Manning will not be eligible for parole for at least eight years, potentially leaving her without access to appropriate care for the gender dysphoria, intense stress caused by discomfort with one's assigned gender, that a military psychologist diagnosed her with just before her arrest.


View PostCait, on 22 August 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

A fair point Specs.  But, and correct me if I'm wrong, being TG isn't a medical condition as in the patient will die without lifesaving treatment.  I'm not talking about choice in terms of choosing to be TG, I'd agree that isn't a choice any more than being gay is.  I'm talking about treatment that up until now he has gone without, which makes it elective imo.  He elected to go without treatment, just as he now elects to get it.  What is different now?

As for your comment re" if insurance pays for it, he should get it. I don't agree.  At all.  Insurance companies cover plastic surgery in  a lot of cases.  Do we now offer plastic surgery to every inmate that has a facial scar, or has received a beating and now needs a nose job?  As a taxpayer, I'm not at all comfortable covering every medical need that isn't necessary. Some people are desperate to get these treatments.  Would we be encouraging crime in order to go to prison to get them?  Is medical coverage in  prison [or military prison] now better than for a  law abiding citizen?

Bolding mine... I assume you don't mean an inmate need to be emergency room ready to get medical treatment ;)

What about breast reductions? Some women have those because it is causing damaging back pain. Not life threatening.

What about mental conditions which do not lead to self harm (or harm of others)?

There are probably many conditions which are not life threatening in the short to medium term.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#8 Spectacles

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:13 PM

Cait, read this:

http://www.courthous...08/20/60451.htm

It answers a lot of your questions.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#9 Spectacles

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:20 PM

This is a good article, too:

http://www.baywindow...ender-sex-panic
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#10 Cait

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:33 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 22 August 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:


Bolding mine... I assume you don't mean an inmate need to be emergency room ready to get medical treatment ;)  

No of course not.  But, I also don't think taxpayers should pay for conditions that aren't medically necesasary.

Quote

What about breast reductions? Some women have those because it is causing damaging back pain. Not life threatening.

Actually, this is the exact example I was thinking of because I suffer from this.  But, as a prisoner, I'd never think to ask the taxpayers to pay for a breast reduction so that I could be out of what believe me is excruciating pain sometimes [although not all of it is from large breasts, certainly a reduction would really help.  The condition has plagued me since puberty.  I could not participate in sports effectively, and believe me I was very competitive.  I got depressed. I was hounded as a pre-teen and early teen.  mocked.  Ridiculed.  I had food and liquids thrown at my chest so my chest, and bra could be seen. My teenage years were miserable and I was bullied continuously and for no other reason than that I had large breasts.  Believe me, I had plenty of reason to want a reduction, and still do.  But, I'd never ask taxpayers to pay for it.

Quote

What about mental conditions which do not lead to self harm (or harm of others)?

There are probably many conditions which are not life threatening in the short to medium term.

And taxpayers should pay for all this?  

See if anyone wants this to be paid for by taxpayers, then I'd better be seeing those people push for single payer and let everyone be covered for whatever will make them happy.  I'm never going to be OK with taxpayers paying for one lone prisoner at Leavenworth, while thousands of people who never broke the law aren't covered.  And, that is my bottom line.  Anyone who crusades for this guy had better also be crusading for single payer for everyone.  [and yes, Specs I know you do, so "kudo's".

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#11 Cait

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostSpectacles, on 22 August 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Cait, read this:

http://www.courthous...08/20/60451.htm

It answers a lot of your questions.

Thanks, I'll see if I can get to it later tonight.. :)

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#12 sierraleone

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostCait, on 22 August 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

And taxpayers should pay for all this?

See if anyone wants this to be paid for by taxpayers, then I'd better be seeing those people push for single payer and let everyone be covered for whatever will make them happy.  I'm never going to be OK with taxpayers paying for one lone prisoner at Leavenworth, while thousands of people who never broke the law aren't covered.  And, that is my bottom line.  Anyone who crusades for this guy had better also be crusading for single payer for everyone.  [and yes, Specs I know you do, so "kudo's".

Well, I have single payer as a Canadian ;) At least for the basics though - such as seeing a family Doctor or a visit to the emergency room. A lot of things prisoners would get covered here I don't get covered for either I imagine.

I actually broke an ankle recently. Hospitalization, surgery and follow-up appointments with the surgeon (including diagnostic x-rays) are all covered.

However, I had to pay for my crutches, my "air" cast, the prescription pain medications and physiotherapy. As well as any over-the-counter medications recommended by the Doctor and/or desired by myself.

My doctor prescribed over-the-counter daily-low-dose aspirin. Not for the pain, but as a preventative for blood clots. I wonder at what percentage of risk that becomes the standard recommendation?


It does rub wrongly that inmates get these 'perks' that regular people don't get when the former broke the law and the latter didn't. And being 'better than' them isn't any consolation.

Ironically, after they break our laws we put these people under our care and protection. I figure that is the easiest way to view it is - these people are adult wards of the state.

I've done respite fostering and I know a lot of people involved in foster care and I've heard some complain about foster kids getting more than their own (or other) kids. Referring to things medical and non-medical. Is it true? Regarding medical - other than kids of privileged families - Yes.

You don't see parents running to give their kids to the state to get medical treatments covered - but a story does crop up every now and then. I imagine it is the same with adult prisoners - now and then odd story of someone committing a crime because they want to go to jail for the 'perks' - but the vast majority with severe medical issues do not - likely because prison sounds pretty awful ;)

What are the alternatives? Either arbitrary guidelines which harm people to various degrees (some more than others), and/or overruling doctors' recommendations?

Or, like you said, single-payer health system. Though, as I demonstrated, even single-payer doesn't automatically mean everything (visits, prescriptions of medications/equipment/other treatment/etc.) is covered - depends on what legislation is crafted up for it. So the complaint that they get "more" medical treatment would likely still stand unless you had a very very comprehensive single-payer-system.

I imagine good prisoner management would also be harmed by withholding recommended medical treatments.

Edited by sierraleone, 22 August 2013 - 09:48 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#13 scherzo

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 10:02 PM

:sadwalk:
I wonder...

When the world passes the 50% mark in STARK RAVING MAD...will those of us stubbornly maintaining our grip on sanity be herded into asylums? :think:

I just hope the food's good.
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#14 Spectacles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:41 AM

From one of the links I posted above:

A quick sum-up: Yes, Manning was transitioning prior to his trial--and according to what I've read he is currently on hormones.

The request is not for surgery but for continuation of his hormone therapy.

But even if it were for surgery, y'all "sane" folk hang onto your hats: your tax dollars are already paying for prisoners to have it!

http://www.baywindow...ender-sex-panic

Quote


Michelle is the male-to-female prisoner who was living as a straight man named Robert when he was married to his wife Cheryl. Robert was eventually convicted of first-degree murder for Cheryl’s 1990 killing. Michelle is serving time for that murder.

It’s bad enough when a convicted spouse killer asks for sympathy from the general public. It’s quite another when that sympathy involves transgender medical treatment, which already pushes people’s irrational buttons, including those of 24 Democrats in our state Legislature who joined 26 Republicans in calling for the DOC to appeal Wolf’s ruling.

There are several questions that need to be answered, and truth be told they are all answered in the exceedingly rational and lucid ruling by Wolf, who is a Reagan appointee. I have asked people who have been debating me online about Kosilek if they have read’s Wolf’s decision, and not one person has done so. Go figure.

This is why we leave these matters to judges and medical professionals rather than members of the general public carrying the modern day equivalent of pitchforks and torches as they go after the transgender monsters in our midst.

There is much muddled thinking out there about the Kosilek case, but the chief questions about which people seem to be confused are these: How much medical care is owed to the incarcerated? How do prison officials decide whether something in medically necessary? Is the treatment of what is called gender dysphoria a medically necessary treatment?

Courts decided long ago that, if we are going to incarcerate people, prison officials are obligated under the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment to provide medically necessary care to prisoners, regardless of the crimes for which they are convicted. If you go back through the history of these court decisions, it’s clear that if the courts had not intervened countless times, most prison officials would feel justified by public sentiment and budget concerns to provide no medical care at all to prisoners no matter how sick.

But courts are designed to protect the powerless and unpopular from the whims of popular opinion, and they have done so in similar cases. This includes decisions that set forth what constitutes medical necessity. “Some factors courts have considered in determining whether a ‘serious medical need’ is at issue are,” according to the ACLU, “whether a reasonable doctor or patient would perceive the medical need in question as important and worthy of comment or treatment; whether the medical condition significantly affects daily activities; and the existence of chronic and substantial pain.”

Judge Wolf did not pull this decision out of thin air. He relied on the opinions of medical professionals with experience in transgender issues who said that Kosilek’s treatment reaches the level of medical necessity. And that is as it should be.

Note that medical necessity does not have to include—and this is a major source of confusion amongst the general public—that the medical condition be imminently life threatening. A good example would be schizophrenia, which is not in itself a life-threatening condition, but which most of us would agree deserves to be treated in prison because it is appropriate medically and constitutes good prisoner management.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#15 Spectacles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:47 AM

Correction: According to this article, Manning has not yet begun hormone therapy. He was, however, "out" as a trans-woman before he started the Wikileaks scandal rolling.


http://www.nbcnews.c...shot-6C10974050

Quote

Other inmates have received hormone therapy and other care for transgender issues. Under old rules, transgender inmates housed by the federal Bureau of Prisons were treated only for their existing conditions when they were admitted to prison. If they took hormones, for instance, that was maintained. But in 2010, after a lawsuit, the prison bureau changed its policy to allow treatment and care for problems diagnosed after incarceration. “Treatment options will not be precluded solely due to the level of services received, or lack of services, prior to incarceration,” the new policy states. That opens the door to new options, including surgery.

Edited by Spectacles, 23 August 2013 - 05:51 AM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#16 Kota

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:09 AM

View Postscherzo, on 22 August 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

:sadwalk:
I wonder...

When the world passes the 50% mark in STARK RAVING MAD...will those of us stubbornly maintaining our grip on sanity be herded into asylums? :think:

I just hope the food's good.

Hope we get the presidential size suites

#17 Nikcara

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:58 AM

I've known that Manning was trans for months before her trial started.  I suspect that the media didn't make a big deal out of it until now because it unnecessarily complicates an already complicated situation.  I also suspect her lawyers didn't want it out too far because trans people face a LOT of discrimination.

As far as prison goes, she's already going to a male prison and isn't going to seek a female one.

As for the hormone therapy, I fail to see why it's such a big issue.  Hormones are fairly cheap, and we are willing to treat other non-life threatening conditions in our inmates.  Inmates can still receive antidepressants if they're diagnosed as clinically depressed, anti-psychotics if they're diagnosed with a number of mental health disorders (heck, there are a number of cases where inmates are forced to take anti-psychotics so that they can be considered competent to stand trial, even if they were mentally incompetent at the time of their crime).  These drugs aren't going to save someone's life, but I've never heard of anyone begrudging the system for providing them.  NOT providing them would violate the "cruel and inhuman punishment" clause of our Constitution.  So what biases do we deny hormone treatment when we know that failing to do so will result in unnecessary suffering?  

Should Manning really be forced to endure a much harsher punishment simply because she is transgender, or should we try to give her the same punishment that a non-transgendered person would have if in the same situation?
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#18 Nonny

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:10 AM

The VA is not the same as the Army.  AFAIK Manning has not received a discharge, but since that discharge will no doubt be dishonorable, he will receive no VAMC health care.

View PostSpectacles, on 22 August 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

^Yep. I read that he'll likely be placed with male inmates.

I'm really pissed off about the Ft. Leavenworth spokespersons remarks here:

Quote

Ft. Leavenworth spokeswoman Kimberly Lewis told Courthouse News that treatment for transgender inmates does not extend beyond psychiatric care.
"All inmates are considered soldiers and are treated as such with access to mental health professionals, including a psychiatrist, psychologist, social workers and behavioral science noncommissioned officers with experience in addressing the needs of military personnel in pre- and post-trial confinement," Lewis said in an email. "The Army does not provide hormone therapy or sex-reassignment surgery for gender identity disorder."

That's simply not true--at least not for veterans. I know this for a fact. So I did some digging:


http://www.disabilit...oneeligible.cfm



Quote

VA Makes Transgendered Veterans Hormone-Eligible....

Reiterates that
all other medically necessary healthcare for transgender veterans is
covered
, including sex-specific care like mammograms and pap smears, as well as transition-
related care such as hormones and mental health services

Posted Image


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#19 Bobby

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:37 AM

What Nikcara said!  I do get Cait's point about how there are millions of people without insurance that haven't broken a law that aren't covered.   As for being gay a person doesn't choose to be gay, but they choose to act on it.  Being transgendered, a person feels they were born in the wrong body.  He joined the military at a young age, there are pictures of him with a wig on before he ever gave files to Wikilinks.  So he's probably being truthful in his desire to be a woman.  But there are plenty of transgendered people who want to transition who can't get the gender reassignment surgery for lack of funds.  If someone is psychotic, it's wrong to bring them back to reality then try them  for something that springs from a medical condition, although I do think they should be in a mental institution for the rest of their days.  But giving them psychiatric drugs helps them come back to reality, it's something they need to function right.  Although who gets to be the arbiter of sanity, "there is no true insanity, just thinking that is so far outside the norm."  Bradley Manning, without a parole, will serve 35 years in a body that is wrong.   As humane people we pay for the ills that plague our prisoners, but people on the outside go sick and die without care.  Bradley won't die but he might get suicidal.  I guess it's a matter of where you place the blame.  If he hadn't leaked the info he did, info that might have gotten people killed, unlike the info about the spying info Snowden leaked, he would be out and free to get his surgery.   My problem with it was that they tried to use it as a possible excuse for him leaking the info because he was supposedly in turmoil, at least that's what I got from one news report. Makes me think of that Tina Turner song about a town not far from here about her hometown Nutbush, TN.  "Can't have no bail, salt, pork, and molasses is all you get in jail."  As for it being an elective procedure, it isn't the same as getting your breasts reduced because your breasts are too big and hurt your back.  This is fundamental to the core of Bradley Mannings very self.  It goes to the core of his identity.

Edited by Bobby, 23 August 2013 - 12:14 PM.


#20 Cait

Cait

    Democracy Dies in Darkness

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:50 PM

View PostBobby, on 23 August 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

What Nikcara said!  I do get Cait's point about how there are millions of people without insurance that haven't broken a law that aren't covered.   As for being gay a person doesn't choose to be gay, but they choose to act on it.  Being transgendered, a person feels they were born in the wrong body.  He joined the military at a young age, there are pictures of him with a wig on before he ever gave files to Wikilinks.  So he's probably being truthful in his desire to be a woman.  But there are plenty of transgendered people who want to transition who can't get the gender reassignment surgery for lack of funds.  If someone is psychotic, it's wrong to bring them back to reality then try them  for something that springs from a medical condition, although I do think they should be in a mental institution for the rest of their days.  But giving them psychiatric drugs helps them come back to reality, it's something they need to function right.  Although who gets to be the arbiter of sanity, "there is no true insanity, just thinking that is so far outside the norm."  Bradley Manning, without a parole, will serve 35 years in a body that is wrong.   As humane people we pay for the ills that plague our prisoners, but people on the outside go sick and die without care.  Bradley won't die but he might get suicidal.  I guess it's a matter of where you place the blame.  If he hadn't leaked the info he did, info that might have gotten people killed, unlike the info about the spying info Snowden leaked, he would be out and free to get his surgery.   My problem with it was that they tried to use it as a possible excuse for him leaking the info because he was supposedly in turmoil, at least that's what I got from one news report. Makes me think of that Tina Turner song about a town not far from here about her hometown Nutbush, TN.  "Can't have no bail, salt, pork, and molasses is all you get in jail."  As for it being an elective procedure, it isn't the same as getting your breasts reduced because your breasts are too big and hurt your back.  This is fundamental to the core of Bradley Mannings very self.  It goes to the core of his identity.

I am completely sympathetic with the struggles of TG people.  I understand they are in the wrong body.  I worked with a TG for over 10 years and understood her story.  I saw pictures of her when she was a young boy, and there was NOT one picture where there was a smile on his face.  Not one.  I remember "getting it" in that exact moment.  As co-workers we laughed and to be honest, she was pretty much always happy.  That was all I needed to know.  So please don't confuse my hesitance to use taxpayer money for some kind of oppression towards TG's.  

This is my bottom line.  I do not think that taxpayers are responsible for the happiness of citizens.  Fairness.  Justice.  Equality.  Yes.  Happiness?  No.  

If he was under a doctors care prior to leaking the materials, then I withdraw that objection.  But, he is not yet on hormone replacement and I'm still hesitant to begin a treatment using taxpayer money.  I'm going to research the health benefits of this for my own information.  I don't just mean the mental health benefits, I mean actual physical health issues.  Maybe there is something there.  

While I totally understand the mental health issues, there are prisons filled with men and women who could benefit from mental health treatment and unless and until they get it, there is no fairness, equality issue for me here.  I don't mean just the people who are diagnosed with mental health issues and are being treated, I mean all those that never see a doctor and go undiagnosed.  Not to mention the fact that I am reluctant to give prisoners better health care than law abiding citizens.

I should disclose, that I am pretty much against the present prison system overall, and the for profit prisons make my stomach turn.  That said, I think it is a lot to ask of taxpayers, and even the examples offered of similar stuff is a lot to ask of taxpayers.  Normal people who struggle to make ends meet.  Struggle to keep health coverage or have no health coverage at all.  To ask these people to pay for criminals is a LOT to ask.

Thank you Nonny, I thought there was a difference between honorably discharged and incarcerated military.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html




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