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Manning refused hormone therapy by military

Bradley Manning Military Transgender LGBT 2013

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#21 scherzo

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:12 PM

View PostKota, on 23 August 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

View Postscherzo, on 22 August 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

:sadwalk:
I wonder...

When the world passes the 50% mark in STARK RAVING MAD...will those of us stubbornly maintaining our grip on sanity be herded into asylums? :think:

I just hope the food's good.

Hope we get the presidential size suites
Y'know It might end up not being that bad a deal. As long as nutcases are running the place, I might be able to convince them I suffer from a medical condition requiring 24/7 access to the pool facilities and hot tub. I'm a sea otter trapped in human form after all.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#22 Nikcara

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:35 PM

As far the people in prison getting better healthcare than people outside of it, I'm of the opinion that we should have universal health care already.  I didn't bring it up before because that's a whole new thread, but I agree that all citizens of this country should have access to decent healthcare.  

However

We we imprison someone, we are accepting responsibility for their well-being.  That's not to say that prison should be either fun or even particularly comfortable, but if we're going to take away a person's ability to care for themselves we damn well better be willing to take care of them.  If Manning didn't go to prison this wouldn't be coming up because she would be going to a doctor on her own dime, but she physically cannot do that now.  Even if she has the money, she can't get a doctor to come in, examine her, prescribe her meds, or buy her meds herself.  She HAS to rely on the prison to provide that for her.

And yes, I think this extends to ALL prisoners, not just Manning.  The private prison industry is a stain on our nation and the regular mistreatment of prisoners should be a shame to everyone.  Healthcare should not be treated as a privilege any more than food or clean water is.
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#23 Spectacles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostNonny, on 23 August 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

The VA is not the same as the Army.  AFAIK Manning has not received a discharge, but since that discharge will no doubt be dishonorable, he will receive no VAMC health care.

View PostSpectacles, on 22 August 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

^Yep. I read that he'll likely be placed with male inmates.

I'm really pissed off about the Ft. Leavenworth spokespersons remarks here:

Quote

Ft. Leavenworth spokeswoman Kimberly Lewis told Courthouse News that treatment for transgender inmates does not extend beyond psychiatric care.
"All inmates are considered soldiers and are treated as such with access to mental health professionals, including a psychiatrist, psychologist, social workers and behavioral science noncommissioned officers with experience in addressing the needs of military personnel in pre- and post-trial confinement," Lewis said in an email. "The Army does not provide hormone therapy or sex-reassignment surgery for gender identity disorder."

That's simply not true--at least not for veterans. I know this for a fact. So I did some digging:


http://www.disabilit...oneeligible.cfm



Quote

VA Makes Transgendered Veterans Hormone-Eligible....

Reiterates that
all other medically necessary healthcare for transgender veterans is
covered
, including sex-specific care like mammograms and pap smears, as well as transition-
related care such as hormones and mental health services

Thanks, Nonny. I stand corrected. :)

I'm nevertheless glad to see, however, that the VA has a pretty enlightened view of health care for transgendered people. Of course, Manning won't benefit from that since he'll be dishonorably discharged.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#24 Cait

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:25 PM

Taxpayers aren't just going to be paying for Manning's hormone replacement.  If the hormones are administered they will feminize him.  S/he is in a all male prison.  I don't want to be graphic, but give this a little consideration for a moment.  If s/he gets hormones and stays in a male prison, s/he's going to be a feminized prisoner.  Will s/he be safe?  Of course not.  So, we'll be paying for some kind of accommodation that will keep her/him safe.  

S/he can't be transferred to a female prison because she won't have had sex-re-assignment surgery, and wouldn't be eligible for it for a long time anyway.  S/He has to first have the hormone replacement treatment and then "live" as a female for a period of time.  How is s/he going to do this in a male prison   So, more accommodations for Manning.  More taxpayer money.

Then there is the mental health treatments.  It's not just treating Manning for anxiety and depression, it is in depth treatment for sex re-assignment.  More taxpayer money.  

How does a beginning TG travel this road in prison?  I'm asking genuinely.  And, even if a person decides to do this, what makes this all the government's responsibility to provide.  I feel for this guy.  I really do, but understanding his plight and agreeing to the use of taxpayer money is a whole different thing to me.  I don't approve of taxpayer money for abortion, or plastic surgery, or any other elective surgery unless it is all about the "life" of the individual.  

And, including depression and suicidal thoughts as part of "life" is absurd to me when it comes to taxpayer money.  People walk around all the time with depression and suicidal thoughts, and even commit suicide, but no one squawks and says, why didn't the government provide mental health care.  People ignore it for the most part.  Thousand of returning Vets are homeless with PTDS and we all say "oh that is too bad" but nothing gets done.  People shoot up schools, but no one in government does a thing about the health care problems that might lead to such tragedies.  But, one lone TG, in prison, suddenly becomes the lone individual who suffers because s/e can't get hormone replacement therapy.  Really.

And taxpayers are to foot the bill?  Like I said, it is a lot to ask given the economic reality that faces average Americans daily.

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#25 Spectacles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

What Nikcara said.

From this link, which I keep coming back to:

http://www.courthous...08/20/60451.htm

Quote

A growing number of federal judges have ruled that rejecting such treatment for transgender prisoners constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.
Indeed, the jurisdiction of the Maryland courtroom where the WikiLeaks source has been tried is subject to a 4th Circuit decisionfrom Jan. 28 this year guaranteeing the possibility of sex-reassignment surgery for all federal inmates in Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, and North and South Carolina.
The Chicago-based 7th Circuit ruled similarly in 2011, striking down a Wisconsin law banning such medical care. A Boston federal judge granted surgery to a convicted wife-killer last year, and the 1st Circuit is currently mulling that decision on appeal.
Manning, however, is being held in a military prison in Ft. Leavenworth, out of reach for all of these jurisdictions.

Quote

The treatment of transgender prisoners is in fact an understudied problem throughout the United States, though statistics about their plights are hard to come by.
A 2009 study of California prisoners found that 59 percent of male-to-female transgender prisoners have been sexually assaulted in all-male prisons, and a shocking zero percent trusted their guards to protect them.
The brochure for U.S. Disciplinary Barracks at Ft. Leavenworth indicates that 57 percent of the prisoners there were confined for sex-related offenses in 2011. The prison keeps no demographics on their number of transgender detainees.
In commenting on the case of a Virginia inmate who won the right to surgery, Lambda Legal's deputy legal director, Hayley Gorenberg, said in an interview early this year that a significant number of transgender inmates deprived of medical care attempt to castrate themselves.
The statistics about this phenomenon are hard to come by, she added.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#26 Nonny

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:40 PM

A veteran with serious chops already invested in military transgendered issues just came out.
Billionaire Philanthropist Comes Out as Transgender

http://www.advocate....out-transgender

Quote

Col. James Pritzker, a member of a prominent and wealthy Chicago family and funder of a study on transgender people in the military, has come out as transgender, Crain’s Chicago Business reports...
Crain’s quotes an email sent to employees of the Pritzker Military Library and Pritzker’s company Tawani Enterprises, saying, “As of Aug. 16, 2013, J.N. Pritzker will undergo an official legal name change, will now be known as Jennifer Natalya Pritzker..."
Jennifer Pritzker is a military veteran, having served 11 years in the Army and 16 in the National Guard. She founded the Pritzker Military Library, which opened in 2011 in Chicago, and in July of this year her Tawani Foundation awarded $1.35 million to the Palm Center, a California-based think tank, for a study of issues surrounding transgender service in the military....

Good to know that somebody is studying this.
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#27 Spectacles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:42 PM

Well, no one's going to change their minds, but folks who don't agree with me are wrong. ;)

One last thing from me to ignore--once again, actually-- and then I'm done with this topic. This is too close to home. Literally.

http://www.baywindow...ender-sex-panic

Quote

Michelle is the male-to-female prisoner who was living as a straight man named Robert when he was married to his wife Cheryl. Robert was eventually convicted of first-degree murder for Cheryl’s 1990 killing. Michelle is serving time for that murder.

It’s bad enough when a convicted spouse killer asks for sympathy from the general public. It’s quite another when that sympathy involves transgender medical treatment, which already pushes people’s irrational buttons, including those of 24 Democrats in our state Legislature who joined 26 Republicans in calling for the DOC to appeal Wolf’s ruling.

There are several questions that need to be answered, and truth be told they are all answered in the exceedingly rational and lucid ruling by Wolf, who is a Reagan appointee.  I have asked people who have been debating me online about Kosilek if they have read’s Wolf’s decision, and not one person has done so. Go figure.

This is why we leave these matters to judges and medical professionals rather than members of the general public carrying the modern day equivalent of pitchforks and torches as they go after the transgender monsters in our midst.

There is much muddled thinking out there about the Kosilek case, but the chief questions about which people seem to be confused are these: How much medical care is owed to the incarcerated? How do prison officials decide whether something in medically necessary? Is the treatment of what is called gender dysphoria a medically necessary treatment?

Courts decided long ago that, if we are going to incarcerate people, prison officials are obligated under the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment to provide medically necessary care to prisoners, regardless of the crimes for which they are convicted. If you go back through the history of these court decisions, it’s clear that if the courts had not intervened countless times, most prison officials would feel justified by public sentiment and budget concerns to provide no medical care at all to prisoners no matter how sick.

But courts are designed to protect the powerless and unpopular from the whims of popular opinion, and they have done so in similar cases. This includes decisions that set forth what constitutes medical necessity. “Some factors courts have considered in determining whether a ‘serious medical need’ is at issue are,” according to the ACLU, “whether a reasonable doctor or patient would perceive the medical need in question as important and worthy of comment or treatment; whether the medical condition significantly affects daily activities; and the existence of chronic and substantial pain.”

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#28 Nonny

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostCait, on 23 August 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

Taxpayers aren't just going to be paying for Manning's hormone replacement.  If the hormones are administered they will feminize him.  S/he is in a all male prison.  I don't want to be graphic, but give this a little consideration for a moment.  If s/he gets hormones and stays in a male prison, s/he's going to be a feminized prisoner.  Will s/he be safe?  Of course not.  So, we'll be paying for some kind of accommodation that will keep her/him safe.  

S/he can't be transferred to a female prison because she won't have had sex-re-assignment surgery, and wouldn't be eligible for it for a long time anyway.  S/He has to first have the hormone replacement treatment and then "live" as a female for a period of time.  How is s/he going to do this in a male prison   So, more accommodations for Manning.  More taxpayer money.

Manning is back in Leavenworth, which I always assumed housed female as well as male prisoners, but my search for accurate information got me nowhere.

Quote

Thousand of returning Vets are homeless with PTDS and we all say "oh that is too bad" but nothing gets done.  

Hold that thought.  I hope to announce my small something next week.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#29 Cait

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostSpectacles, on 23 August 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Well, no one's going to change their minds, but folks who don't agree with me are wrong. ;)

One last thing from me to ignore--once again, actually-- and then I'm done with this topic. This is too close to home. Literally.

http://www.baywindow...ender-sex-panic

Quote

Michelle is the male-to-female prisoner who was living as a straight man named Robert when he was married to his wife Cheryl. Robert was eventually convicted of first-degree murder for Cheryl’s 1990 killing. Michelle is serving time for that murder.

It’s bad enough when a convicted spouse killer asks for sympathy from the general public. It’s quite another when that sympathy involves transgender medical treatment, which already pushes people’s irrational buttons, including those of 24 Democrats in our state Legislature who joined 26 Republicans in calling for the DOC to appeal Wolf’s ruling.

There are several questions that need to be answered, and truth be told they are all answered in the exceedingly rational and lucid ruling by Wolf, who is a Reagan appointee.  I have asked people who have been debating me online about Kosilek if they have read’s Wolf’s decision, and not one person has done so. Go figure.

This is why we leave these matters to judges and medical professionals rather than members of the general public carrying the modern day equivalent of pitchforks and torches as they go after the transgender monsters in our midst.

There is much muddled thinking out there about the Kosilek case, but the chief questions about which people seem to be confused are these: How much medical care is owed to the incarcerated? How do prison officials decide whether something in medically necessary? Is the treatment of what is called gender dysphoria a medically necessary treatment?

Courts decided long ago that, if we are going to incarcerate people, prison officials are obligated under the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment to provide medically necessary care to prisoners, regardless of the crimes for which they are convicted. If you go back through the history of these court decisions, it’s clear that if the courts had not intervened countless times, most prison officials would feel justified by public sentiment and budget concerns to provide no medical care at all to prisoners no matter how sick.

But courts are designed to protect the powerless and unpopular from the whims of popular opinion, and they have done so in similar cases. This includes decisions that set forth what constitutes medical necessity. “Some factors courts have considered in determining whether a ‘serious medical need’ is at issue are,” according to the ACLU, “whether a reasonable doctor or patient would perceive the medical need in question as important and worthy of comment or treatment; whether the medical condition significantly affects daily activities; and the existence of chronic and substantial pain.”

I sort of resent being categorized as someone who ignores you.  I also resent being put into a class that would discriminate against TG on the basis of hysterical hatred or fear.  I think all matters concerning taxpayer money are complicated.  Having a conversation is the important thing.  Absolute agreement isn't the point when a conversation begins.  I'm sorry if you feel I've ignored what you have to say.  i actually didn't ignore it all.  I just don't agree with your resolution to the problems.  

I agree, and already said so, that there is an extreme danger for Manning in a male prison.  I've already said I think the prison system is an abomination, but I guess that got ignored.  I'm sorry you don't feel the need to address the real concerns of taxpayers and taxpayers money but instead attribute opposition to some kind of discrimination.  I don't believe that is fair, but you are entitled to your opinion.

I think I opened with the two issues.  One, is taxpayer money and how it is spent.  The other is fairness and equality.  I think the issue is what each of us sees as "cruel and unusual" punishment and how that relates to the way prisons are run now.  I'm sorry that this devolved into one side against the other.  I was hoping it wouldn't.

I know you are seeing this as some kind of harshness for Manning, Specs.  But, I am asking, where does it end?  You see this treatments as vital to Manning's life.  I'm asking why this is now the governments responsibility to provide.  Is the government there to make us whole?  To make us happy?   Really?  There is a lot of room for discussion in this, and I have been listening to you.  But, it's hard to listen when there seems to be no acceptance of my position.  It is taxpayer money.   Is that not a relevant point?  Is there  no room between your position and mine?

And, now, I am out of the conversation as well.  My only remaining point is this: Just because I am looking at the cost to taxpayers, and this is not a new position for me BTW, doesn't make me bigoted against TG.  It makes me fed up to here with solutions that don't solve any real problems.  I think it muddy's the water to introduce that into the conversation, but whatever.

What it does make me, is sick of the prison system that places individuals in more danger than the public was ever in when criminals roamed the streets.  It makes me sick to my stomach that children and families go without, while people who broke the law are protected from cruel and unusual punishment.  It is pretty cruel to starve to death, or to have to exist on a poor diet that will lead to obesity and diabetes.  I'm not asking that prisoners be treated worse than citizens, I'm saying what is the governments responsibility.  You've cited judges and government people, I read what they have to say.  I just don't agree.  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree until one of us changes her position.

And I'm sorry you can't entertain the idea that a taxpayer can be concerned about how the money is spent without being some sort of ignorant bigot.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#30 Cait

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:51 PM

View PostNonny, on 23 August 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:


Manning is back in Leavenworth, which I always assumed housed female as well as male prisoners, but my search for accurate information got me nowhere.


That doesn't solve the problem of a pre-sex reassignment M-F TG in a woman's prison.  But, I suppose it is at least an option if this is true.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#31 Nikcara

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:33 PM

I think part of the problem with this discussion is that we're isolating it to just Manning, while at the same time much bigger issues keep leaking in.

I agree with parts of what Cait is saying, and I do think it's reasonable to look at what the cost to the taxpayers is and weigh it against the harm done to prisoners.  I personally feel that it is better to give Manning the hormones, but I see nothing hateful in Cait's reasoning.

I think what's making it difficult is the idea of fairness.  It is absolutely not fair that there are kids growing up without proper nutrition while there are people convicted of truly heinous crimes getting steady meals.  However I don't feel that it is morally justified to reduce prisoner's diets to substance level meals.  As I mentioned before, if you take away someone's ability to care for themselves, you have to take responsibility for their care.  Even if they're terrible people.  If we're going to be fair then we should make more food available to those kids/other people in need.  As I stated above, I feel the same way about medical care.

But we can't really just go ahead and pass universal health care or expand TANF, so we focus on how unfair it is that prisoners get care that law-abiding citizens don't.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#32 Spectacles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:43 PM

Cait, what are prisoners supposed to do? Go without health care unless they can purchase it themselves? And how are they to do that?

I love you, but you really do seem to be equating Manning's situation as being some sort of a whim, a desire to be "happy." Well, yes, that's part of it. But there is a lot more to it than that, which you also seem to acknowledge. So I'm confused and don't know how to read you.

Sorry I insulted you. I'm sort of defensive about this topic...

Let me try this. I'll share my own transphobia. :) Yep, that's the word. I groaned myself when I first heard it--and had to confront my own unease with transgendered folk.

We gays and lesbians are a minority, so most people don't really "get" us either. But trans people are an even smaller minority. Most of us gays and lesbians don't naturally "get" them. There is a difference between wanting to be with someone of your own gender and wanting to be with someone of your own gender--but as the opposite sex.

I know a few transgendered people and I have evolved into being more accepting over time. But I still find myself wondering from time to time, "was this really necessary?" At the heart of that question, though, is really "I don't get it." And of course I don't. I've never experienced gender dysphoria--not beyond a tomboy phase. And I'm very much a same-sex kinda lesbian. Unlike some friends, I never got the butch-femme thing. It always seemed to me that if I wanted to be with someone who acted like a guy, I'd just be with a guy. I was attracted to women. (Past tense because, you know, post-menopause here....Now I'm attracted to ice cream. Much less grief.)

Because I can't really identify with the condition, it's hard for me to imagine how it must feel to think that you are a man in a woman's body or a woman in a man's. I really can't fathom it. But it must be intensely frustrating. How that affects people, I can't know personally.

But when I see people exposing themselves to ridicule and rejection and bafflement--far beyond what I've experienced as a lesbian (and that hasn't been pretty, especially in my younger years when being gay was still a big taboo)--to get out of their natural born genders and into the other, I suspect something really powerful is afoot.

This is some serious sh*t for people who go through this.  If we taxpayers pay for antidepressants and antipsychotics for prisoners in jails that we also pay for, it seems to me that under the law we should also spring for hormones. And the law says we should because gender dysphoria is a medical condition and hormone therapy is a necessary part of the treatment. And we are supposed to treat inmates' medical conditions. Hell, we clean their teeth and give them checkups.

Yes it sucks that some people get better medical care in prison than they would on the outside. It sucks that law-abiding citizens have to pay so much into a prison system that is bloated with drug offenders who should be NOT in prison but in treatment. But things are what they are.

I can't claim to understand transgendered people. But I can see their desperation. If hormone injections can relieve it, then who am I to begrudge that? If they commit a crime and land in jail, then why should they be punished even more by denying them the thing that can help that desperation?

My tax dollars go to all sorts of things I don't like. I really hate corporate welfare and the bloated defense budget and the gross unfairness of my tax money going to some Congressional pork project in Alaska. And the waste of taxpayer dollars on bureacrats and their perks makes me livid.

But it doesn't bother me to tend to the medical and dental needs of inmates. I think health care should be a right. I think it should be universal. If it were, my tax dollars would support it. That support would not stop at the prison doors.

So we see things differently on this.

One last thing. I realized I was transphobic when I first saw the T in LGBT. I thought "Oh great. That'll help." Given the utter bafflement most people have about transgender people, I thought we'd NEVER make progress with them tied to our little rainbow wagon. I was wrong--in many ways. I'm glad that people with greater compassion and foresight in the LGB community insisted that trans folk be included in our collective struggle for equality. They were right, and I'm embarrassed about my old attitudes.

I'll still never really "get it." But that's not their problem. And it's not really mine. I don't have to totally empathize with someone to stand up for their right to be treated equally.

In Manning's case, my position is this: if we're giving medications deemed "medically necessary" to other inmates for their conditions--life-threatening and otherwise--then Manning should also receive medications for his medically-recognized condition. That's all.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#33 Nonny

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:21 PM

View PostSpectacles, on 23 August 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

One last thing. I realized I was transphobic when I first saw the T in LGBT. I thought "Oh great. That'll help." Given the utter bafflement most people have about transgender people, I thought we'd NEVER make progress with them tied to our little rainbow wagon. I was wrong--in many ways. I'm glad that people with greater compassion and foresight in the LGB community insisted that trans folk be included in our collective struggle for equality. They were right, and I'm embarrassed about my old attitudes.

I'll still never really "get it." But that's not their problem. And it's not really mine. I don't have to totally empathize with someone to stand up for their right to be treated equally.

In Manning's case, my position is this: if we're giving medications deemed "medically necessary" to other inmates for their conditions--life-threatening and otherwise--then Manning should also receive medications for his medically-recognized condition. That's all.

I had the great good fortune to meet a transgendered woman more than two decades ago, well before I had formed any opinion on the subject.  Sister Mary was about 6'5" and had the biggest feet I'd ever seen, but I wore size 9 shoes when I was 8 years old, so big feet on a woman being a problem has always been a mystery to me, and at 5'4" I feel left out, being the shortest in my family but one (and she's even snarkier about her short stature than I am), so height in a woman is admirable to me.  And she was sweet and kind, but she had to start her own order of nuns, because none of the established orders wanted her.  And I remember when adding the B was under discussion, but that seems to have worked out too.

That said, Manning is still a soldier, and AFAIK will remain a soldier until her sentence is served and she is discharged, and current Army policy is not to provide transgender care.  That could change.  BTW when DADT ended, it apparently did not end discrimination in the military against transgendered.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#34 Lin731

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:15 PM

Specs, Cait never said anything about denying healthcare to prisoners. Her real question seemed to be what do we define as nessesary and what isn't. If a prisoner has a heart condition, that is life threatening. Same thing with diabetes, high blood pressure etc...all life threatening. seriously mentally ill patients get meds in part to protect other prisoners and staff as much as the prisoner themselves. Manning is a woman trapped in a man's body but A. Is that a life threatening illness? IMO, no. B. Isn't the hormone therapy the first step in the process of sex reassignment surgery and is that the goal here? Personally, if hormone therapy alleviates depression for him, I wouldn't have an issue so much with that but if it's all leading up to costly sex reassignment surgery, THAT I do have a problem with. For the record, I have no problem (in fact I have great sympathy for people trapped in the wrong body) but it isn't a life threatening illness. I likewise wanted single payer medical coverage, find prisons for profit and healthcare for profit disgusting but that is what we have here, as much as I wish we didn't. In a perfect world I'd love to see all medical conditions, mental problems etc...properly cared for but in a country that is quickly become a nation of low wage slaves, we have to look realistically at what we can in good conscience ask tax payers to foot the bill for while they themselves struggle to keep a roof over their own heads.

Edited by Lin731, 23 August 2013 - 09:17 PM.

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#35 scherzo

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:52 PM

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I likewise wanted single payer medical coverage, find prisons for profit and healthcare for profit disgusting but that is what we have here, as much as I wish we didn't.
Prisons and hospitals provide needed services. There's nothing disgusting about being paid for providing a needed service. What should creep you out is the widespread sense of personal entitlement that enables a thread like this to even exist.

Ironically, you lament becoming a country of "low wage SLAVES", but think medical professionals should have no expectation of profit for the job they do. And apparently see no potential impact on the quality of medical care, after we've implemented one mother of a disincentive to acquire the skills necessary to provide it. We're in BIG trouble people. :(
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#36 Nikcara

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:09 PM

I don't think anyone here is arguing that we should do away with prisons all together.  Thinking that they need an overhaul is not the same thing as thinking they are unnecessary.  

Also, I don't see why providing universal healthcare is supposed to imply that anyone thinks medical professionals shouldn't get paid for their work.  There are plenty of European countries and Canada that seem to manage it just fine.  But again, how to implement things like universal health care or prison reform would each be their own, separate thread.
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

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#37 scherzo

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:14 PM

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Also, I don't see why providing universal healthcare is supposed to imply that anyone thinks medical professionals shouldn't get paid for their work.
Imply? She specifically said, "healthcare for profit is disgusting".  :dontgetit:
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#38 scherzo

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:22 PM

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One last thing. I realized I was transphobic when I first saw the T in LGBT. I thought "Oh great. That'll help." Given the utter bafflement most people have about transgender people, I thought we'd NEVER make progress with them tied to our little rainbow wagon.
The rainbow wagon that's firmly(and absurdly) attached to the Black Civil Rights wagon that is.

btw... that *T* in LGBT won't be the last letter added. You're not going to like the next contestants to join that victim clique...at first. But maybe someone really impressive sounding will type up a few research papers that will make you feel bad about your initial intolerance. We'll see...
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#39 Spectacles

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:50 AM

^True. Because civil rights are, well, civil rights.

But there is no way that pedophiles are climbing aboard anyone's little wagon, if that's what you're hinting at.

BIG difference between adult consensual sexual behavior/ gender identity and preying on kids.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#40 Spectacles

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:59 AM

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Nonny: That said, Manning is still a soldier, and AFAIK will remain a soldier until her sentence is served and she is discharged, and current Army policy is not to provide transgender care.  That could change.  BTW when DADT ended, it apparently did not end discrimination in the military against transgendered.

You're right, Nonny. Things will be what they are for Manning until she gets out of prison. I would surely not want to be in this person's shoes.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Bradley Manning, Military, Transgender, LGBT, 2013

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