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Manning refused hormone therapy by military

Bradley Manning Military Transgender LGBT 2013

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#41 Spectacles

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:10 AM

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Lin: In a perfect world I'd love to see all medical conditions, mental problems etc...properly cared for but in a country that is quickly become a nation of low wage slaves, we have to look realistically at what we can in good conscience ask tax payers to foot the bill for while they themselves struggle to keep a roof over their own heads

I know what you're saying, Lin. I guess I'd just rather be angry at those at the top of the economic food chain who buy politicians and media outlets and "think tanks" to convince working people that the bottom feeders are the real problem.

I refuse to get pissed off at some murderer who needs a hormone shot or dental checkup that costs me .0000001 a tax dollar while multinational corporations have their hands deep in my pockets. I only have so much outrage to go around. :)


.

Edited by Spectacles, 24 August 2013 - 06:10 AM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#42 Cait

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:33 AM

View PostSpectacles, on 24 August 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

I refuse to get pissed off at some murderer who needs a hormone shot or dental checkup that costs me .0000001 a tax dollar while multinational corporations have their hands deep in my pockets. I only have so much outrage to go around. :)


Well, on this we can agree.  I reserve my anger for the politicians and those that buy politicians as well.  If I gave the impression that I was angry at manning, I was misunderstood.  I am not angry at him/her.  

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
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#43 Nonny

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:58 AM

View Postscherzo, on 23 August 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Prisons and hospitals provide needed services. There's nothing disgusting about being paid for providing a needed service.

There is plenty disgusting about creating a need for your services by corrupting judges, as reports on private prisons are demonstrating.

View Postscherzo, on 23 August 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

btw... that *T* in LGBT won't be the last letter added. You're not going to like the next contestants to join that victim clique...at first. But maybe someone really impressive sounding will type up a few research papers that will make you feel bad about your initial intolerance. We'll see...

I'm thinking C for conservative, but the folks who co-opted the term for their own obstructionist use already have their own victim clique.  No time to find a suitable photo, but if I did, I'd caption it Boo Hoo Boehner.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#44 Nonny

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:59 AM

View PostCait, on 24 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on 24 August 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

I refuse to get pissed off at some murderer who needs a hormone shot or dental checkup that costs me .0000001 a tax dollar while multinational corporations have their hands deep in my pockets. I only have so much outrage to go around. :)


Well, on this we can agree.  I reserve my anger for the politicians and those that buy politicians as well.  If I gave the impression that I was angry at manning, I was misunderstood.  I am not angry at him/her.  

I'm with you two.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#45 Spectacles

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:00 PM

:)
Cait,

We can also agree on questioning the appropriateness of taxpayers footing the bill for the gender reassignment surgery--which is incredibly expensive. Hormones, not so much.

I do think that the hormone therapy is important for someone with gender dysphoria. I suspect it fits the bill for "medically necessary" (which legally does not mean life-saving), but I don't know that for sure. I'm just guessing based on what I've seen. The hormones enable them to at least have more of the outward characteristics of the gender that they feel they are.

The surgery is expensive as hell, and most transgendered people can't afford it. If jails start providing it, I know at least one who'd likely commit a crime just to get it. So a lot of trans folks live outwardly as male or female but resign themselves to the reality that the surgery is beyond their means unless their insurance pays for it. Fortunately for them, more insurances do so these days.

I think that for some, the surgery itself may be deemed medically necessary. It probably depends on the psychology of the individual. Apparently some can't be content with the outward changes produced by hormone therapies but must have the genital surgery too. According to one report I read, some trans people have taken desperate measures to either get the money for the surgery or to mutiliate themselves. And then there are some who are perfectly fine to keep the old genitalia as long as they can present the opposite gender identity to the world in their appearance, thanks to hormones.

We humans are complicated creatures. :)

Edited by Spectacles, 24 August 2013 - 12:01 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#46 Nonny

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:06 PM

View PostSpectacles, on 24 August 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

We humans are complicated creatures. :)

Amen to that!
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#47 Cait

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:09 PM

I believe it is a murky area when we get into "what people believe they must have" in order to be at peace or happy.  As a person I totally empathize with anyone who feels they must have ...

sex re-assignment surgery
gastric by-pass surgery
plastic surgery
breast augmentation
etc...

And while I am not equating any of these, they have one theme in common.  There are individuals that will do anything to get the surgeries they feel necessary.  And, in a free society, these people are free to pursue anything their little hearts desire.  I applaud the single minded clarity of such pursuits.  I really do.  I hope that these medical procedures provide all the desired results in each life.

What I pause and take a look at it, is, asking the government [and by extension the taxpayer] to pay for it.  This is just not the same thing as a government protecting against discrimination in the workplace or at a lunch counter.  And, let's face it protecting discrimination in the work place means that anyone wanting these kinds of surgeries will be able to work for and obtain them.  This is where I think the government should be.

Going back to my original OP, I worry that this is almost a suicidal request of Manning.  You are right Specs, hormone therapy will make Manning take on more feminized looks--in a male prison population!  Manning broke the law, yet the nightmare is going to be for the military management of Leavenworth.  

What is the answer from a strictly pragmatic POV?  It's just not as simple as creating a gender neutral bathroom in a local school for TG's and anyone else who wants to use the bathroom.  It's not the same as re-constructing every street corner for wheelchairs.  And, although I guess I can see it coming, can we afford [as taxpayers] to revamp every bathroom facility, every prison, every barracks, etc for TG's in the current economic reality?  Is this the government's job?

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#48 Spectacles

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:01 PM

So what do you suggest, Cait?

What should the prison system do with transgendered inmates in general to save taxpayers money?

What should the prison system do with inmate health care in general to save taxpayers money? Should dental and medical care only be extended to save an inmate's life?

And what specifically do you think Manning should do? Forget about his gender dysphoria until he's released, which may be in 8 years with good behavior, but may not be until the next 35 are up?
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#49 Spectacles

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:03 PM

BTW, I agreed with you that sex-reassignment surgery is not something that taxpayers should pay for.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#50 Lin731

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:59 AM

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Imply? She specifically said, "healthcare for profit is disgusting".  :dontgetit:
It IS disgusting when we gouge the sick and dying to the degree that we do in this country. I saw an oncologist whining on Yahoo a while back because he could no longer gouge his cancer patients obscene amounts of money for their cancer meds (the markup was beyond sickening) and that he had the stones to cry about how much not being able to screw his patients for excessive sums to keep themselves alive was cutting into his lifestyle was nauseating. So YEP, I find the system we have disgusting. Yes, doctors should be paid well but what we have had is a system of profiteering by the medical industry. We have a local scandal going on right now with an oncologist defrauding medicare for MILLIONS by over medicating his cancer patients for higher fees and perhaps claiming they had cancer when they didn't. A lady I work with, her mother has just come through breast cancer treatment with this doctor and now she wonders if she even HAD breast cancer, not to mention he dosed her so high for the chemo that her skin was blistering.

Edited by Lin731, 25 August 2013 - 12:03 PM.

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#51 BklnScott

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 04:15 PM

I'm not super comfortable with Bradley manning being the lead edge of the spear vis a vis transgender rights.

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#52 scherzo

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:04 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 25 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I'm not super comfortable with Bradley manning being the lead edge of the spear vis a vis transgender rights.
He's perfect I think. What better illustration of our descent into absolute madness, than a DEAD SERIOUS discussion of the hormone treatment "rights" of a convicted traitor? If America's losing it's g*dd*mn mind anyway, there's no point in being half-assed about it. :humble:

Edited by scherzo, 25 August 2013 - 07:44 PM.

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#53 scherzo

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:17 PM

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Yes, doctors should be paid well but...
That would be profit though. ie: evil.

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We have a local scandal going on right now with an oncologist defrauding medicare for MILLIONS by over medicating his cancer patients for higher fees and perhaps claiming they had cancer when they didn't.
A criminal act, which has nothing to do with how medical professionals are compensated for their legitimate work. I should also mention, this anecdotal incident is an example of typical bureaucratic incompetence, and how unscrupulous people will always exploit it.

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A lady I work with, her mother has just come through breast cancer treatment with this doctor and now she wonders if she even HAD breast cancer, not to mention he dosed her so high for the chemo that her skin was blistering.
Which means what? Some doctors suck? Is government completely taking over our healthcare supposed to put an end to that somehow? :dontgetit:
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#54 Themis

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:42 PM

I'm torn.  There's necessary treatment for physical health, necessary treatment for mental health, and maybe this falls under treatment for optimal mental health?  As a nation, we supposedly don't believe in torture or "cruel and unusual" punishment.  But surely we DO believe in punishment?   Sometimes it seems like, other than confinement in a cell for most of the day, there isn't much punishment going on.  On the surface, even hormone therapy seems like something that's more for the inmate's mental comfort than health.  And something that would create difficulties in sharing a cell (aren't most cells shared?) with either a male or female, thus perhaps creating more cost for the prison in isolating the prisoner.  

As I said, I'm torn.  But we're on the third page of this thread and I'm not sure anybody has factored in the concept of prison as punishment.
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#55 sierraleone

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:05 PM

View PostThemis, on 25 August 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

As I said, I'm torn.  But we're on the third page of this thread and I'm not sure anybody has factored in the concept of prison as punishment.

People have mentioned they have problems with prisons as they are run now. I don't know what exactly they are referring to but I similarly have concerns with our current justice system at that end. (well both ends actually, but we aren't talking about the court end :) )

IS prison's purpose punishment? Other possible purposes of prison (or the threat of)... Deterrence? Retribution? Rehabilitation? Separation/Protection from/of society? How does our current prison systems work in light of those purposes? Does that depend on the individual and/or crime(s)? Do we want to reduce the recidivism rate? (i.e. the percentage of ex-inmates ended up back in jail). Assuming that is desired what factors lead to such, a punishment or rehabilitation approach? Are punishment/rehabilitation necessarily/automatically at odds? That is a whole other discussion one could have.

Edited by sierraleone, 25 August 2013 - 08:20 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#56 Cait

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:00 PM

I recognize that as a society we use prison as punishment, but the truth is, the only reason we should put people in prison is "the public safety".  That's the function of government, to provide security and public safety.  All other reasons should not be the province of the government.  We may seek revenge, or seek to punish, but those are emotional motivations.  The law should not be motivated by emotion, but my legal principles and sobriety.  People should only be locked up when they become a public safety hazard.

Military prison is somewhat a horse of a different color, especially in the case of treason.  Any soldier convicted of treason should be locked up because to do otherwise could put the public at risk from foreign powers.  These people have already proven they will indeed reveal secrets, and short of killing them, locking them up is the only safe alternative for the public.  That may sound harsh, but there it is.  It's a reality for those convicted of treason.

In Manning's case specifically, he should have known what was in store for him the minute he released the documents.  Way too many people in our current culture, think that these kinds of people should not be locked up, but they are and will continue to be.  That's the price of the revelation, and Manning should have been more resolved with what would definitely become his fate.  Maybe this is also why I'm so resolved against his getting hormone treatments.  I have to ask myself "What is he thinking?  He's been convicted of treason for crying out loud.  Treason.  He knew he would go to jail.  you'd think he would have been a little better prepared.  If he was already on hormone replacement, then continuing it might be medically necessary.  He just seemed so ill prepared for his fate.  Hell, I knew commie liberal pinko hippies who were better prepared at a demonstration.

Demonstrators in the 70's and early 80's [I was one of them] decided how far they were will to go when demonstrating.  Willing to go to jail?  They got into one group with one leader.  Didn't want to go to jail, off to another group and another leader.  Preparation for consequences makes all the difference in planning any action against the government.  If you can't live with the consequences, opt out. Some were and made preparations ahead of time for a lawyer, bail, etc.  No one expected to be let go if they went too far and broke the law.  Manning broke the law and should have made his peace with the consequences.  

To a much earlier question from Specs, "what would I suggest?".  In general, I'd have medical care for general preventive care, and for existing conditions or new conditions that can lead to death or physical handicap if untreated.  I would offer mental health programs for those that need or want them.  In the case of Manning, I'd let him have mental health supervision to help him cope with his reality.  He is a woman trapped in a man's body.   It's not the job of the government or the military to fix that for him, but we could help him cope with it.

Yes, that is harsh.  I know that.  The man is a traitor, and like I said before, what was he thinking?

As for prisons in general.  There are dozens of real life historical examples of how to rid the public of criminals without housing them like animals.  My favorite solution is to put a fence around Texas and drop all criminals there.  If wives and children want to go with them [or husbands] so be it.  Actually the introduction of women and children make men exhibit the characteristics of protection more when present.  In any event, I'd drop them all in, give then tools and let them build whatever kind of life they wanted.  Develop whatever kind of society they wanted.  Let natural selection sort it all out.  Put guards on the fence.  Shoot to kill if they try to escape.  Otherwise, let them be.  We'd save money and these people would have a shot at a life--away from the public.

But, no one in Texas would go for that... LOL

I suppose we could use Arizona or Nevada.  LOL

Edited to add, no we would not get an Escape from New York scenario, we would get Georgia or Australia.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#57 scherzo

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:43 PM

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People should only be locked up when they become a public safety hazard.
I'm sure Bernie Madoff would concur. :rolleyes:

Snap out of it Cait. A few months ago some freak aimed his gun at an infant's face and fired. If government was for some ridiculous reason restricted from punishing this vermin, the public would be absolutely justified in going full vigilante.(with torches, pitchforks...the whole shebang) There's nothing noble or high-minded about rejecting our completely appropriate anger at thieves and killers. At the very least most people get that devastating consequences for criminals, discourages their activity.

Edited by scherzo, 25 August 2013 - 08:45 PM.

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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#58 Lin731

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:13 PM

Wow that was a nice dance around my point Schezro.  I never said profit was evil, I said gouging was and from a guy who's party is screaming on a regular basis about waste and fraud, it's interesting how you dismiss it here. the bread and butter of our current system is how much can we jack up prices on the sick and desperate. Big Pharma, hospitals and insurance companies ALL participate in the shake down...Insurance companies have an army of claim reps whose main purpose is to find ways NOT to payout on claims because it cuts into their profit margin. They take your money every month though, until you become seriously ill at which point, often they drop your coverage and use every trick in the book to deny the claims. Doctors over billing, doing tests that aren't needed to pad their profit margins. Investing in expensive equipment and than herding their unknowing patients through that pricey equipment to get it paid off and making them even more money. Hospitals setting their own prices for everything from ketsup cups (medication dispensers) to bed pans without ANY accountability at all. $50,000 dollar price differences between hospitals that are 10 miles away from each other for the exact same procedures and up to now, the patients had no way of comparing those costs and making informed decisions.
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#59 Cait

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:31 PM

View Postscherzo, on 25 August 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

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People should only be locked up when they become a public safety hazard.
I'm sure Bernie Madoff would concur. :rolleyes:

I'm sure he wouldn't.  Nor would half of Wall street.  I can think of plenty of punishments that would fit the crime and protect the public from further crimes of anyone like Madoff, and they don't include locking him up.  But, then I knew I have a minority opinion on what should constitute being locked up.  You don't seem to mind spending taxpayer money on prisons, but I do.  I'd have made Madoff take a job at MacDonald's and pay off everyone he stole from from his wages.  But, that's me.  When I can find a solution that doesn't cost taxpayers, I usually get quite fond of it.

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Snap out of it Cait. A few months ago some freak aimed his gun at an infant's face and fired. If government was for some ridiculous reason restricted from punishing this vermin, the public would be absolutely justified in going full vigilante.(with torches, pitchforks...the whole shebang) There's nothing noble or high-minded about rejecting our completely appropriate anger at thieves and killers. At the very least most people get that devastating consequences for criminals, discourages their activity.

I don't know what you think I said, but obviously your comprehension isn't up to par tonight.  So, let me elaborate a little.  If I ruled the world, there would be no "twinkie defense", there would be no battered spouse syndrome.  There would be no temporary insanity, etc.  Why?  Because it goes against the notion of public safety.  Temporarily insane?  Well, you might go temporarily insane again. Battered spouse?  You might go crazy on the next poor guy?   It might mitigate punishment, but not guilt.  

I prefer the absolute clarity of public safety as a foundation in criminal law.  Luckily, that just about always covers public outrage, deterrence, punishment, revenge, and any other emotion the public would like to vent in the wake of crime.  But, the legal foundation should always be "The public Safety".  If the public gets their hard on as well, so be it.

So, you snap out of it, and read what I wrote.  Try not to read it through the rose colored pinko glasses you think color all my opinions.  Anyone who put a gun into the face of a child is a threat to public safety.  Where you get the idea that it isn't is beyond me, but whatever.  Sometimes your positions don't make any sense to me.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#60 scherzo

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:20 PM

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I don't know what you think I said, but obviously your comprehension isn't up to par tonight.
Well let's see...you said:
"I recognize that as a society we use prison as punishment, but the truth is, the only reason we should put people in prison is "the public safety".  That's the function of government, to provide security and public safety.  All other reasons should not be the province of the government."

OK...sounds very much like you think government should not be in the business of punishing people. That may not be what you meant...but it is what you wrote. My post just explains why you're wrong.

If you think something you typed immediately after altered your original pov, I'll be happy to get out of the way while you continue this crackling debate with yourself.

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Wow that was a nice dance around my point Schezro.  I never said profit was evil, I said gouging was
What gives here? "healthcare for profit is disgusting" is what you said. Not ten years ago. On this thread! The words are like...right there! :dontgetit:
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
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