Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Gun-toting soccer mom found shot dead

gun violence NRA murder suicide

  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 07 September 2013 - 03:20 PM

Gun-toting soccer mom found shot dead

http://www.nbcnews.c...d/#.UiuH_X_JKSo

Quote

LEBANON, Pa. — A mother of three who became a voice of the gun-rights movement when she openly carried a loaded pistol to her daughter's soccer game was fatally shot along with her husband, a parole officer and former prison guard, in an apparent murder-suicide at their home.
Autopsies were planned Friday for Meleanie Hain, 31, and Scott Hain, 33, who were pronounced dead shortly after 8:30 p.m. Wednesday at their brick home in this small city about 80 miles west of Philadelphia.
The couple's 10-year-old son and daughters ages 2 and 6 were home at the time, police said. The two older children ran outside and told neighbors that their father had shot their mother, neighbors said. The children are being cared for by neighbors and relatives.
Toys lay scattered across the corner lot Thursday in the tree-lined neighborhood where the family lived and where Meleanie ran a day care center. A car parked in the driveway bore a badge-shaped sticker that read "NRA law enforcement."..
Glock at a soccer game
Meleanie Hain made headlines after she attended her then 5-year-old daughter's soccer game in a park on Sept. 11, 2008, with her Glock holstered on her hip in plain view, upsetting other parents.
The county sheriff, Michael DeLeo,   revoked her gun-carrying permit  nine days later.
Hain successfully appealed the permit revocation, although the judge who restored the permit questioned her judgment and said she had "scared the devil" out of people.
Hain   sued DeLeo in federal court , alleging that he violated her constitutional rights and prosecuted her maliciously when he took the permit away. She said that because of his actions her baby-sitting service had suffered, her children had been harassed and she had been ostracized by her neighbors in Lebanon, which has about 25,000 residents.
DeLeo said at Hain's appeal that he revoked her permit after fielding the parents' complaints. He said he based his decision on a state law that prohibits certain gun permits from being given to people whose character and reputation make them a danger to public safety.
After Hain sued DeLeo, the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which says it tries to reform the gun industry through sensible regulations, offered to defend him for free....

I feel sorry for the kids.
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#2 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 07 September 2013 - 04:43 PM

This happened a few years ago. I recall thinking how sad it is that people arm themselves under the assumption that a gun will keep them safe. It can. If it's in your hand, loaded, 24/7 and you keep your back to a wall and don't fall asleep.


http://www.huffingto...g_n_315291.html


Quote

LEBANON, Pa. - A soccer mom who was thrust into the national gun-rights debate after taking a loaded pistol to youth sports events was killed by her husband in a shooting witnessed online by her video chat partner, authorities said Friday.

Scott Hain used his own gun to fire several shots into his 30-year-old wife, Meleanie, while her video chat was active and perhaps as she washed dishes in their kitchen, police said. Scott Hain, 33, later killed himself in an upstairs bedroom.

Meleanie Hain's loaded pistol -- with a bullet ready in the chamber -- was in a backpack hanging from the front door.

There are stories upon stories of people getting shot to death while their weapons were a few feet away. And yet the notion that guns can protect us persists.

Good sense is the best weapon people can have.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#3 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:36 AM

I should have checked the date.   :blush:   Time seems to be rushing for me these days, or maybe I read the original story about her years after it happened as well.  My attempts to get updates on the children failed, so I hope that means that they are being cared for by caring relatives who keep the press at bay.  And I hope that they are getting any help they need.

For myself, every time I read an article like this, I think about my dad, and that at least he didn't kill my mom, and though that doesn't make his suicide any easier to deal with, it does make him a hero, relative to other suicides who kill their kids and spouses first.

I just hope those kids are okay.
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#4 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 12:31 PM

Quote

This happened a few years ago. I recall thinking how sad it is that people arm themselves under the assumption that a gun will keep them safe. It can. If it's in your hand, loaded, 24/7 and you keep your back to a wall and don't fall asleep.
What's irritating is, after I prove this statement to be absolutely wrong...I'm 100% certain it will have exactly zero impact on your position. The weirdest part is, this "back to the wall-don't fall asleep" scenario is so absurd on it's face, we don't even need the THOUSANDS of documented cases of citizens protecting themselves with a gun to refute it.
But just to make sure...
Posts from the "Self Defense" category  just a few RECENT examples from the over 900 incidents posted...

Quote

Armed Homeowner Shoots and Kills Suspect Being Pursued by Police During Crime Spree
September 5 2013

Elderly, Disabled Woman Uses 9mm Glock to Fight Off Intruder High on Drugs
September 4 2013

Teenager Uses Shotgun to Shoot 2 Burglars, 1 Killed
August 28 2013

Ohio Homeowner Manages to Shoot and Kill Intruder After Being Stabbed Three Times
August 27 2013

Texas Homeowner Shoots and Kills Axe Wielding Intruder
August 19 2013

OK Homeowner Shoots Rifle Wielding Intruder to Protect Family Hiding in Bedroom
August 12 2013

Cleveland Homeowner Shoots and Kills 1 of 2 Masked Robbers Who Pistol Whipped Him
August 6 2013

Indianapolis Homeowner Shot and Killed Home Invader With History of Violent Crimes
July 28 2013
Note...the dates here are going back only 2 months, which is a clear indication incidents like these are far from uncommon. A perusal of the website that compiles this information will show you several more occurrences within this same time frame. I suppose a case can be made that the people involved would have been better off unarmed...but it would be a ridiculous case. There is nothing foolish about be prepared to defend yourself if necessary.

And yet... :rolleyes:

Edited by scherzo, 08 September 2013 - 12:35 PM.

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#5 Godeskian

Godeskian

    You'll be seein' rainbooms

  • Islander
  • 26,839 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:31 PM

Guns are tools like anything else. In the hands of a capable, civic minded user, they are an asset.

Conversely in the hands of a suicidal person, they're a menace.

Would you move your position with every pointless gun-death? If not, why would you think those on the opposite side of the ideological divide will change theirs because you cite facts that you feel support your view?

Edited by Godeskian, 08 September 2013 - 01:33 PM.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#6 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:41 PM

Quote

Scherzo: What's irritating is, after I prove this statement to be absolutely wrong...I'm 100% certain it will have exactly zero impact on your position.

And what's irritating to me is that you'll think you have "proven" my statement "absolutely wrong" by carting out examples of people who have successfully defended themselves with guns. Of course some have.

In this black/white world of Scherzo-land, you're either fer 'em or agin 'em. No shades of gray allowed.

Let me clarify: guns can protect people when they are in people's hands at the very moment that they need them--and they know how to use them--and their judgment is not impaired so that they don't accidentally kill their own kids or spouses or deliberately kill themselves.

See the gun-toting soccer mom's story, which opens this thread.

If your gun is in your handbag hanging on the door when your jealous/deranged/equally-armed husband decides to shoot you, then you're dead--no matter how many guns you have in the house. If her gun were in her hand, she may have stood a chance. They could have had an old-fashioned shoot-out. But it's hard to hold a gun while washing dishes.

I don't mind if people have guns--as long as they know that simply having a gun won't make them any safer.

Ask this guy:

http://www.theatlant...ded-guns/60871/

Quote

YouTube's Most Popular 'Gun Nut' Found Shot to Death, Surrounded by Guns

Or any number of people each week who are killed in accidental shooting deaths--usually by someone they know.

Or any number of people who get drunk and miserable in the middle of the night and recall they have a gun in their nightstand.

http://www.pewresear...ost-gun-deaths/

Quote

Suicides by gun accounted for about six of every 10 firearm deaths in 2010 and just over half of all suicides, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Since the CDC began publishing data in 1981, gun suicides have outnumbered gun homicides. But as gun homicides have declined sharply in recent years, suicides have become a greater share of all firearm deaths: the 61% share in 2010 was the highest on record. That year there were 19,392 suicides by firearm compared to 11,078 homicides by gun (35% of all firearm deaths). The rest were accidents, police shootings and unknown causes.

I know you really, really thought I was just being a squeamish liberal who wants to take away everyone's guns. I actually don't. And I completely understand why people living in rural or high-crime areas want to have a gun in the house.

But too often they buy a gun, put it in the drawer, and that's that. Without practice and considerable training and sound mental health, that gun may pose as much of a danger to them as any human threat will.

Way too many people are swept up in the silly "gun culture" that glorifies weapons and treats them almost as magical talismans that will keep them from harm just because they have them.

By all means, people have the right to bear arms in this country. But because so many do not understand the responsibilities of gun ownership, we have many, many senseless deaths each year in this country.

That's my point. But I'm sure you'll continue to argue with Strawman Specs, your favorite opponent. :)

Edited by Spectacles, 08 September 2013 - 01:45 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#7 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:29 PM

Quote

Would you move your position with every pointless gun-death? If not, why would you think those on the opposite side of the ideological divide will change theirs because you cite facts that you feel support your view?
The facts I cited blow Specs' entire premise to hell.

If someone posted facts that blew my premise to hell, I'd move my position.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#8 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:56 PM

Quote

And what's irritating to me is that you'll think you have "proven" my statement "absolutely wrong" by carting out examples of people who have successfully defended themselves with guns. Of course some have.

In this black/white world of Scherzo-land, you're either fer 'em or agin 'em. No shades of gray allowed.
Where are the "shades of gray" in this patronizing declaration?
"I recall thinking how sad it is that people arm themselves under the assumption that a gun will keep them safe. It can. If it's in your hand, loaded, 24/7 and you keep your back to a wall and don't fall asleep."

So now we're going to pretend I misconstrued your pity for the "sad" people who think a gun can protect them, at the same time you're completely revising your argument. Buttressing your monkey dance with suicide or accidental death statistics, would only make sense if I'd implied that stuff doesn't happen.

You were wrong. Period. I know it's the first week of Football Season but moving the goalposts won't help. You would have been better off just saying you "misspoke"...to use a favorite word of politicians.

BTW you said something at the end about Strawmen. I assume you were referring to this sterling example:
"I know you really, really thought I was just being a squeamish liberal who wants to take away everyone's guns."
Hmmmmmmm, don't seem recall saying that. In fact I don't  see where I even alluded to liberals taking people's guns away.  I posted to demonstrate once and for all that having a gun can and has saved lives quite often. The End.

The hilarious thing about your debate with Strawman Scherzo is...you don't even win that one really. It's just you changing the subject, and speechifyin' to an audience of presumed gun-toting ignoramus'. Pointless.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#9 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 03:36 PM

Good lord....


:D
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#10 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 04:07 PM

OK, I feel bad for being dismissive, Scherzo. Let me try to spell it out for you once again.

This is the statement you "disproved" by citing cases of people defending themselves with guns:

Quote

"I recall thinking how sad it is that people arm themselves under the assumption that a gun will keep them safe. It can. If it's in your hand, loaded, 24/7 and you keep your back to a wall and don't fall asleep."

That was a bit hyperbolic, but not entirely.

A gun CAN keep someone safe, as I said.

But there are a lot of IFs involved in that CAN.

A gun can keep you safe if it is in your hand and loaded when you need it and you are alert and you know how to use it.

So tell me again how what I assert is incorrect.

Or are you trying to say that people can defend themselves with their guns when they can't get to them (soccer mom) when they need them or when they aren't awake and aware of approaching danger (self-described "gun nut" shot when surrounded by his guns)?

Or do you disagree with my point that merely having a gun does not make one safe?

As for my unfairly accusing you of assuming that I'm a "squeamish liberal"--because you never ever said that--I was responding to this non-condescending remark:

Quote

I suppose a case can be made that the people involved would have been better off unarmed...but it would be a ridiculous case. There is nothing foolish about be prepared to defend yourself if necessary.

And yet... :rolleyes:

But you're right. You never came out and explicitly accused of me of making a case that the people involved "would have been better off unarmed."

After all, that would have been attributing to me something I did not say. So...don't know who you're talking to there, but I apologize for thinking it was me.

Edited by Spectacles, 08 September 2013 - 04:22 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#11 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 04:11 PM

BTW, anyone who thinks that just "getting a gun" will protect them and their loved ones really needs to watch this video:


"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: gun violence, NRA, murder suicide

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users