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Agents of SHIELD S1E02: "0-8-4"

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#21 Christopher

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 10:04 AM

I've never understood that complaint about Voyager. They have replicators. As long as they have raw materials (which could be mined from asteroids), they can manufacture any component in seconds. So it would be unrealistic if they couldn't replace their shuttles.
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#22 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 11:26 AM

Ontological AND verisimilitude.   In one thread.  #Geekgasm

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#23 NeuralClone

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 12:31 PM

View PostChristopher, on 03 October 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

I've never understood that complaint about Voyager. They have replicators. As long as they have raw materials (which could be mined from asteroids), they can manufacture any component in seconds. So it would be unrealistic if they couldn't replace their shuttles.
The complaint is that they were supposedly low on power and resources, and then the show made little effort to address their endless supply of shuttles. To make matters worse, they made a big deal about making the Delta Flyer and how it was difficult to build and design shuttles. Realistically, with replicators and a good source of resources, they should have been able to make shuttles. But the show didn't address this issue at all and the way it treated this serious problem like it was nothing at all took a lot of people right out of the show. It was at odds with its premise and everything they stated on the show.

Edited by NeuralClone, 03 October 2013 - 12:46 PM.

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#24 Christopher

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:06 PM

View PostNeuralClone, on 03 October 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The complaint is that they were supposedly low on power and resources, and then the show made little effort to address their endless supply of shuttles. To make matters worse, they made a big deal about making the Delta Flyer and how it was difficult to build and design shuttles.

Funny, I always felt that the episode where they built the Delta Flyer was specifically written to answer that lingering question about where new shuttles came from. So far from making matters worse, it made them better by demonstrating exactly how it worked (though, granted, it took them quite a while to get around to it). The difficulty there came only from debates over what design and specifications to use, not from problems with components or assembly; in Paris's own words, "We could replicate the alloys and the new design components, use spare parts from storage. If we worked around the clock we could have it up and running inside a week." And that's for a brand-new, untested design.  The other shuttles they replaced were existing, standardized designs -- as well as being significantly smaller vessels than the Flyer -- and thus could've been built more quickly.

Edited by Christopher, 03 October 2013 - 01:07 PM.

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#25 G-man

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostChristopher, on 03 October 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

I've never understood that complaint about Voyager. They have replicators. As long as they have raw materials (which could be mined from asteroids), they can manufacture any component in seconds. So it would be unrealistic if they couldn't replace their shuttles.

But the concept was a starship cut off from it's own logistical tail, therefore would face shortages in spare parts, photon torpedoes, and, yes, shuttle craft.  It was explicitly stated that replicator use would have to be kept at a minimum because it consumed too much power -- which is why Neelix ended up as the ship's cook.  Heck, in the early seasons they were keeping track of the photon torpedoes they had used; but apparently the ship had an unending supply of shuttles, as well as space to store Neelix's ship and later the Delta Flyer.

If your ship is a wholly self-contained perpetual motion machine with unlimited resources to produce whatever it needs as the script demands, then there is no purpose behind stating that stricture.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 03 October 2013 - 01:47 PM.

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#26 Christopher

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

True, there are legitimate objections about the energy issue, at least vis-a-vis what was established in the early episodes. But I've heard many complaints from people who didn't seem to understand that replicators could be used for equipment as well as food, or that having replicators would radically transform the whole process of manufacturing. This is a problem that Trek's own writers often had as well: failing to think through the full ramifications of the technologies portrayed in the show.

Really, though, there shouldn't have been any power or material shortages either. Space is chock full of gigantic fusion reactors radiating vast amounts of free energy outward in all directions, so any ship that's able to get close to a star and deploy a solar collector should have unlimited power. And there are billions of asteroids in space from which any conceivable resource could be easily mined. The whole idea of material shortages or power shortages is a story conceit that doesn't really work in the context of an interstellar civilization. So I'm happy to accept that the energy shortages they had early on were eventually overcome.
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#27 SparkyCola

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:23 PM

For several reasons, I don't think Coulson is an LMD and I do think he has at least some awareness of his current status (whatever that is).

In 'The Consultant' mini-film it's implied that Coulson is Level 7 prior to his death. He may have been 'in on it' ahead of time.
I think the 'Tahiti is a magical place' line is absolutely NOT an indication that he's an LMD. That would be absurdly obvious since we've only seen 2 eps. I think it's either his private joke, or it's a deliberate attempt to mislead at least us -  and possibly some of his team as well into thinking he's an LMD. He could well be ahead of the curve - e.g. everyone believes he is an LMD, but in fact he and Fury know the truth.

I admit it may be wishful thinking - I really don't want him to be an LMD because that's boring and predictable: I'll be very pleased if it was a red herring and Coulson/the writers are a step ahead of us.

Quote

Maybe Thor took him to Asgard for some godly healing.  

See now that I like. A lot. That makes more sense to me with the 'magical place' line than that he's repeating it because he's an LMD. As for personality, I think he's exactly right as Coulson - I don't detect any differences from the films personally.

Meanwhile, I'm fine with all the characters but I'm interested to know more about May and Simmons (do we even know the first names of Fitz-Simmons?) who I find less irritating than Fitz, and I must be the only person who actually likes Ward as a character. I was impressed with his mature response in saying "We just see things differently", and his cutting through the bickering to just get the thing and go. I also find his dry humour funny and don't find him anything like Jayne (who I also love as a character - I just don't see the similarities as much as everyone else seems to. Jayne is hilarious but obliviously so, and he's casually ruthless. Ward is frankly more like Mal - he's 'hardened' and combat-ready, but not ruthless, and his humour is dry and deliberate. He's certainly not an intellectual idiot like Jayne. He's not the dumb heavy - he deserves more credit than that, and illustrated that in this ep).

Still like Coulson and loved the scene with SLJ "How's Lola?" lol. Agree with Scott that it was great of Samuel L Jackson to do it, it pleased me immensely.

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#28 Christopher

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostSparkyCola, on 03 October 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

(do we even know the first names of Fitz-Simmons?)

Leo Fitz and Jemma Simmons.

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#29 SparkyCola

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

^ Thanks. Has that come up on the show and I've just missed it? I hope in the next ep we get to know them each a bit more as individuals. We're only on ep 2 though.

I wonder if the next ep will focus on a particular character (perhaps May?)  ...  or if they will build them up more as an ensemble before delving into individual plot lines/ back stories.

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#30 RJDiogenes

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:03 PM

View PostChristopher, on 03 October 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Really, though, there shouldn't have been any power or material shortages either. Space is chock full of gigantic fusion reactors radiating vast amounts of free energy outward in all directions, so any ship that's able to get close to a star and deploy a solar collector should have unlimited power. And there are billions of asteroids in space from which any conceivable resource could be easily mined.
Well, we're talking about a show that started off with the premise that a spacefaring civilization has a water shortage. Obviously they didn't have a science consultant. Or anybody on staff who ever read a basic science book.  :lol:

I think the objections to the shuttles were not about replicating parts, but the idea that warp cores can't be replicated. And I do remember them keeping count of photon torpedoes in early episodes ("Only seven left now."), but that was quickly forgotten.  I liked Voyager a lot, but I'm sorry that they abandoned this aspect of the concept.

View PostSparkyCola, on 03 October 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Quote

Maybe Thor took him to Asgard for some godly healing.  

See now that I like. A lot. That makes more sense to me with the 'magical place' line than that he's repeating it because he's an LMD. As for personality, I think he's exactly right as Coulson - I don't detect any differences from the films personally.
I like the Asgard idea, too, I just wonder why he "must never know."  I also think his personality is just fine.  I love the guy as he is.
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#31 DWF

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:51 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 03 October 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

View PostChristopher, on 03 October 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Really, though, there shouldn't have been any power or material shortages either. Space is chock full of gigantic fusion reactors radiating vast amounts of free energy outward in all directions, so any ship that's able to get close to a star and deploy a solar collector should have unlimited power. And there are billions of asteroids in space from which any conceivable resource could be easily mined.
Well, we're talking about a show that started off with the premise that a spacefaring civilization has a water shortage. Obviously they didn't have a science consultant. Or anybody on staff who ever read a basic science book.  :lol:

The Ocompa weren't a space faring race.
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#32 DWF

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:59 PM

I think that should forget about Loki and any connections to Asgard and give us their versions of Modok.

TOS94_Cap_MODOK.jpg

And Baron Strucker.

ST156_Strucker.jpg
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#33 G-man

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:47 AM

View PostDWF, on 03 October 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

View PostRJDiogenes, on 03 October 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

View PostChristopher, on 03 October 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Really, though, there shouldn't have been any power or material shortages either. Space is chock full of gigantic fusion reactors radiating vast amounts of free energy outward in all directions, so any ship that's able to get close to a star and deploy a solar collector should have unlimited power. And there are billions of asteroids in space from which any conceivable resource could be easily mined.
Well, we're talking about a show that started off with the premise that a spacefaring civilization has a water shortage. Obviously they didn't have a science consultant. Or anybody on staff who ever read a basic science book.  :lol:

The Ocompa weren't a space faring race.

I think he was talking about the Kazon.

/s/

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#34 enTranced

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:12 AM

I love, love love this show.

The cracks about Coulson's flying man cave, May regaining her mojo, Skye not sure if she is on the right team and even allowing the character that doubt, all good stuff.

And yes, what kind of magic is Tahitii anyway? Or maybe, who is magic in Tahiti? :p

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#35 BklnScott

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:46 AM

Maybe Jackson took him to see Doctor Strange...

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#36 RJDiogenes

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:51 PM

View PostG-man, on 04 October 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

I think he was talking about the Kazon.  
Indeed he was.  :nod:

View PostenTranced, on 04 October 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

The cracks about Coulson's flying man cave,
Yeah, the mid-life crisis conversation cracked me up.  :lol:

View PostBklnScott, on 04 October 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Maybe Jackson took him to see Doctor Strange...  
Now that would be groovy.  I love Doctor Strange.
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#37 BklnScott

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:53 AM

The script for the Doctor Strange movie allegedly has his origin playing out over the events of Phase I (which are referenced in the background - i.e., news reports of the Hulk's rampage in Harlem, Stark revealing he is Iron Man, et al).  So by this point, post-New York, he could be in Fury's back pocket... but that would mean we're waiting for an explanation about Coulson for three or four years (until the Doctor Strange movie), which is highly unlikely.  

Whatever explains his status, that explanation is already in the pipeline.  That's why I think the Zodiac Key from the Agent Carter one-shot will be leveraged.  They didn't decide to have her recover that thing for nothin'.

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#38 RJDiogenes

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 04:59 PM

I don't think I even knew there was a Doctor Strange movie in the works.  Three or four years? That's a drag. Do they have anybody cast yet?

And what's the Agent Carter one-shot?  A comic or a DVD extra?
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#39 Christopher

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 06:08 PM

Agent Carter is a short film on the Iron Man 3 Blu-Ray, IIRC.
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#40 enTranced

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:45 AM

Regarding Voyager:

1) I am with G-Man on the shuttles, I hated, hated right from the start how Voyager just picked up from TNG and DS9 on shuttle respawning. The whole point of the show was a starship cut off. Completely cut off from resupply. Yes they occasionally gave nods and winks to that premise but the premise demanded so much more, in fact the premise demanded Farscape and Firefly. I wanted the Delta Flyer every week. I wanted shuttle pieces all over the shuttle bay every week as they desperately tried to keep one shuttle up and running. I wanted WAAAY more then one episode where they land to make repairs. I don't need a whole actof landing just open with the ship already landed. Gaaah.

2) I hated the way the Caretakers and Ocampa were swept away like so much else that was created for the show (hey remember that whole half Marquis crew thingy?).

3) Kazon and Water. Ugh.

4) As a Star Trek fan I don't think I will ever fully recover from Voyager.

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