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Government Shut Down 2013 113th Congress

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#21 Omega

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:22 AM

View PostCait, on 07 October 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

more on the debt ceiling here... http://www.businessi...o-break-2013-10


Quote

If the Treasury is unwilling to stretch the definition of extraordinary measures, on the day that the Federal Reserve predicts that the Treasury will run out of cash in its account and the Treasury is bound by the debt ceiling, it suspends all payments and awaits instructions from the Treasury. As a result, the government’s principal economic officials will face the prospect of violating one of these three laws:
1. The Second Liberty Bond Act of 1917 that establishes the debt ceiling;
2. The Federal Reserve Act that prohibits the Fed from lending directly to the Treasury; or,
3. The 14th Amendment of the Constitution that holds that the debt of the United States government, lawfully issued, will not be questioned.
They have to break a law. At the end of the day, officials will avoid violating the Constitution by indicating that they have been given inconsistent instructions and are obeying the one with the most important precedent.
Basically in Reinhart's formulation, Lew will opt to break the debt ceiling law, citing constitutional obligations to continue servicing the debt.
And then of course we enter into level never-neverland with respect to the budget.




An interesting analysis. Constitutionally, the debt must be serviced, so any law preventing that from happening is unconstitutional. Never-neverland is a good name for a world like that.

#22 Spectacles

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:32 AM

^Yep.

My god is this scary. The Tea Partiers have elected people who are as far removed from reality as they are. And they are in the process of pushing our country--and possibly the world's economy--off the cliff.

Meanwhile, my conservative friends and family on FB are cheering them on as they fight the Evil Commie Obama who hates America and wants to steal their money and give it to lazy black folks. I've never seen people more misguided and ill-informed in my life--at least not at this critical mass.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

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#23 Spectacles

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

http://www.washingto...8523_story.html


Quote

The Seinfeld shutdown

Quick: What do Republicans want in exchange for ending the government shutdown? If you know the answer, congratulations — because Republicans sure don’t.

When this saga began, it was about defunding Obamacare. House Republicans passed legislation to keep the government running while defunding the president’s health-care law.
  
Senate Democrats rejected it.


Next, the House passed another government-funding bill but attached a one-year delay of Obamacare and repeal of the medical device tax.

Senate Democrats rejected it.

So the House passed yet another government-funding bill, this one with a one-year delay of just Obamacare’s individual mandate, plus a provision requiring the president, the vice president, political appointees, all members of Congress and their staff to enroll in Obamacare’s health-care exchanges with no employer contribution.

Senate Democrats rejected it.

This week, the House tried passing small appropriations bills to keep specific portions of the government running individually — with no Obamacare conditions whatsoever.

Senate Democrats ignored it.

So we’ve gone from defunding Obamacare . . . to delaying Obamacare . . . to delaying parts of Obamacare . . . to funding the government piecemeal without touching Obamacare at all. If Republicans have already conceded the defunding of Obamacare, what’s the point of keeping the government closed? Why on earth would the GOP pass “clean” bills to fund individual parts of the government but not the whole government?

It calls to mind the episode of “Seinfeld” where Jerry and George are coming up with an idea for a show to pitch to NBC — and decide it will be “a show about nothing.” That’s what this standoff has become — the Seinfeld Shutdown, a shutdown about nothing.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#24 Omega

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:37 AM

Quote

This week, the House tried passing small appropriations bills to keep specific portions of the government running individually — with no Obamacare conditions whatsoever.

Senate Democrats ignored it.

So we’ve gone from defunding Obamacare . . . to delaying Obamacare . . . to delaying parts of Obamacare . . . to funding the government piecemeal without touching Obamacare at all. If Republicans have already conceded the defunding of Obamacare, what’s the point of keeping the government closed? Why on earth would the GOP pass “clean” bills to fund individual parts of the government but not the whole government?

That is a complete misrepresentation. Funding parts of the government inherently includes Obamacare conditions, because Obamacare isn't one of the parts in question. They haven't conceded the defunding of Obamacare; passing piecemeal spending bills is just another attempt to do it.

#25 Spectacles

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:50 AM

^ Fair point.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#26 Dev F

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostOmega, on 08 October 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

That is a complete misrepresentation. Funding parts of the government inherently includes Obamacare conditions, because Obamacare isn't one of the parts in question. They haven't conceded the defunding of Obamacare; passing piecemeal spending bills is just another attempt to do it.
Well, yes and no. Obamacare isn't funded through the appropriations process currently being held hostage, so there's no particular part of the government from which the GOP needs to withhold spending in order to shut it down. The Republicans are just trying to target the most media-friendly elements of the government like national parks and cancer research for refunding to weaken the Democrats' position as they argue about the remaining less sexy but still essential elements like the EPA and support for the poor.

I'm grateful that the Dems didn't fall for it this time. It would've been the sequester all over again: everyone in Congress agreed to reverse the most obviously burdensome elements of the sequester right away, leaving the more subtly destructive cuts in place indefinitely and allowing the Republicans to pretend that slashing government budgets indiscriminately was their plan all along. I could easily see us getting into the same situation if the Democrats rolled over on the piecemeal funding bills: the Republicans just leave the rest of the government shut down and declare victory. That's why it's so important that the Democrats not budge on this one, even if it opens them up to accusations of being "unwilling to negotiate."

#27 FarscapeOne

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

I think I've said it before, but if Obamacare is really as great as  it has been claimed to be, then why are government officials exempt from it?  They are citizens like the rest of us, so therefore should be bound by the same rules as everyone else.  Doing this basically says to everyone, "We are above you and can do whatever we want".

THAT is one of the biggest problems I have had with Obamacare.  It clearly is not a good thing if everyone is required to do it except those that are passing the law.

And here just proves that point, with the democrats rejecting that caveat to make ALL of them use Obamacare with the rest of us.

I don't think that shutting the government down should have happened.  These Republicans are complete a**hats for using extortion tactics like this, but come on.  All the signs have been there from the start that Obamacare is not as good as they say it is.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 08 October 2013 - 02:26 PM.


#28 Cait

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:03 PM

I've never seen so much confusion over this one issue.  Government employees are mandated to use the exchanges for their health insurance now.  It's in the Law.  There is no exemption at all.  What they do have is their share of the employer contribution [the Federal Government's contribution] to the insurance they purchase from the exchanges.  The opposition is calling that a subsidy, but it really is only the employer contribution.  Sure it comes from the same place as before, but it was always coming from that pocket.

Government employees are not exempt.  Government employees are not receiving a subsidy.  They have to get their health insurance from the exchanges just like everyone else [except for medicare patients], but they still get the employer contribution to help find good coverage.  It's really as simple as that.

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#29 Spectacles

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:08 PM

Quote

I think I've said it before, but if Obamacare is really as great as  it has been claimed to be, then why are government officials exempt from it?

They AREN'T. We discussed this here a couple of months ago.

But it really is true that if people repeat a lie often enough, folks believe it must be the truth.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#30 Tricia

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:10 PM

Um.....not sure why you think Congress is exempt from the so-called 'Obamacare"

http://www.usatoday....macare/2883635/

Quote

WASHINGTON — Of all the arguments against the Affordable Care Act that congressional Republicans are mustering in the debate over the spending bill, one hits closest to home. Congress, they say, is exempt from the very law that applies to everyone else.

The truth: Members of Congress are treated differently under Obamacare, but they're not exempt. In fact, by forcing them to purchase health insurance through publicly run exchanges, they're impacted more by that key provision than similar employees in private sector — or even in government.


But members of Congress will also be able to purchase their insurance under terms that are more favorable than other employees — in government or in business — who have access to employer-provided health care.


Here's the history: During the 2010 debate over the Affordable Care Act, Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, proposed an amendment requiring members of Congress and their staffs to purchase health insurance though state exchanges. Democrats, viewing the amendment as a political stunt, co-opted the idea as their own and inserted it into the bill.


But the provision was silent about who would pay for that insurance, or how those payments would be treated. The exchanges were intended for uninsured people who couldn't get health insurance through their employer or qualify for Medicaid. Those who had access to health benefits meeting minimum coverage levels could still purchase insurance on the exchanges — but without a subsidy and using after-tax income.


Holding members of Congress and their staffs to that standard would have the effect of stripping them of the employer-paid health coverage they currently get, which is the same as any other federal employee. So the Office of Personnel Management issued a proposed rule in August making clear that the government would continue to pay the employer contribution for congressional health benefits at the same rate as if members were still on the federal plan.

There is more at the article but I'm not seeing this exemption :huh:


Granted this article was published Sept 27 2013 but don't think much could have changed but if anyone could show me links for where   it has been changed then I'd welcome those.


Edited by Tricia, 08 October 2013 - 09:35 PM.

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#31 Nonny

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:07 PM

Veterans, at least service-connected ones like me, are exempt, but probably that's because they built all those hospitals for us.  The good mostly outweighs the bad in VA healthcare.   :)
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#32 Bad Wolf

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:37 PM

People need to get past the spin and research the facts themselves.

GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES ARE NOT EXEMPT FROM OBAMA CARE.  END. OF. STORY.  Don't believe me?  LOOK IT UP and by that I mean FURTHER than foxnews.
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#33 tennyson

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:52 PM

It's a strange thing to realize that for the first time in your life that you're going to have to rely upon assistance programs that might disappear sooner than later. My dismissal from my government contractor job took out my health insurance and I was barely making debt maintenance with anything left over with two jobs and selling off my stuff at intermittent intervals (I also worked for a geneaology company in Illionois that actually liked my work).
I've gotten sick to death of being told I "have a sense of entitlement" when I've worked harder than any time in my life the last ten years and have nothing to show for it. I've had four jobs at a time, half of which I started myself, for years on end and still no respect from that place.
I'd rather a host of feeral employees stop thinking about thier own personnal power and influence and covering thier ass and actually get on with running the government and managing thier part of it.
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#34 FnlPrblm

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:39 PM

View PostNonny, on 08 October 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Veterans, at least service-connected ones like me, are exempt, but probably that's because they built all those hospitals for us.  The good mostly outweighs the bad in VA healthcare.   :)

Vets as well as post-65 year olds are exempt from the National Health Care deal because both are already covered under govt. health care programs (Tri-Care and Medicare, respectively).  So making either pay into a new plan is essentially doubling the coverage.
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#35 Bad Wolf

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:40 AM

Just so you all know?  I called the number listed at California's Covered California site and within half an hour my application was complete.  I should be receiving my insurance stuff within two weeks.  Absolutely NO questions about any pre existing conditions.  I've done the insurance app thing before and have been repeatedly turned down (and btw, I wasn't looking for a free ride.  I was willing to pay the same premiums they were advertising) because of "pre existing conditions" including but not limited to the fact that I experimented with cigarettes in highschool and take otc iron because I'm anemic.    Well, no more.  I don't want a free ride.  I just need to be covered.  Well now I will be.
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#36 Nonny

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:50 AM

My free ride is prepaid, and I don't want to lose it.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#37 Spectacles

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:50 PM

^Nonny, I just heard on NPR that Shinseki is on it. Try not to worry.....

Of course if Rand Paul and assorted other GOP idiots succeed in convincing the rest of their party that we can't default if the debt ceiling limit is reached, you're sh*t out of luck--but you'll be in good company. We'll all be with you in the bread lines--us and the rest of the world.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#38 Nonny

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:31 AM

I'm way past worry.  My VA clinician is on vacation, so no mental health care for two weeks, and I don't want her to worry that she can't take much needed time off.  Her job takes a lot out of her as it is, and she gives so much more.  She's got to be worrying about us.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot



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