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The GOP's debt ceiling denialists

Government Shut Down 2013 113th Congress Debt Ceiling

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#61 Spectacles

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:43 PM

^ I would, too.
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#62 Balderdash

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 04:24 PM

Thirded.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



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#63 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:04 PM

View PostOmega, on 14 October 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Do you have a source that contradicts the facts of the matter as Cait presented them? I would be interested in seeing that.

People on this board don't seem to accept sources from sites like Foxnews. They want sources from MSNBC, where show Personalities like Matthews say how happy they are about Hurricane Sandy hitting. Or wannabe comedians like Hayes does satire on White people. Needless to say, I stopped visiting MSNBC's site.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#64 Balthamos

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:25 PM

LoTS. My understanding is that "Obamacare" is a law. How can you vote not to fund something that has been passed in to law already?

To bring the analogy to a household.. I've already signed up to pay my mortgage. I can choose whether or not this paycheck has room for beer in it.


#65 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:57 PM

View PostBalthamos, on 14 October 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

LoTS. My understanding is that "Obamacare" is a law. How can you vote not to fund something that has been passed in to law already?

To bring the analogy to a household.. I've already signed up to pay my mortgage. I can choose whether or not this paycheck has room for beer in it.

Congress has the power of the purse. It can decide what it wants to allocate money for and what it doesn't. To use your analogy...You've signed up to pay your mortgage, but if you allocate your money for beer instead, then the mortgage doesn't get paid.

End result being you would loose your house.

I've never, not once, said it is a good way to conduct business. But neither is letting a Bully like Obama walk all over you.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#66 EChatty

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:15 PM

Okay, how is he walking all over us? As Cait has explained over and over and over, ACA has it's own separate funding and is not part of the CR. What is happening is that Congress is, in essence, holding its breath like a spoiled child, trying to get ACA defunded before approving the CR, when ACA is NOT part of it.

Have you even assimilated that information yet? ACA is funded SEPARATELY from the CR and Congress is holding this country's economy hostage trying to get him to remove that funding.

#67 Cait

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 14 October 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:


Congress has the power of the purse. It can decide what it wants to allocate money for and what it doesn't.  

Ah, no.  Not really.  Again, it is the difference between mandatory spending and discretionary spending.

Mandatory spending, is well, mandatory.  Why?  Because it has its own funding stream.  When a bill is funded by a tax specifically for that mandatory program, then no, Congress can't allocate the money to be spent elsewhere.  Or at least, it's not supposed to do so.  A good example is your Social Security withholding tax.  You are taxed for a specific purpose--the Social Security Fund.   Or the medicare tax on your check.  That is specifically to fund Medicare.  These programs have their own funding stream, and like ACA, are considered mandatory spending.  Congress doesn't really touch the money [or it's not suppose to].  Believe me, they would love to be able to get their greedy hands on it, and would if they could.  But, they can't, at least not in the way you stated.  The Funds have been borrowed from, but the Funds have IOU's, they funds were NOT simply allocated to go to different things.  The Government owes the SS Fund for what they borrowed.

Congress has a lot more say so over discretionary spending, because well, it doesn't have a funding source and it is you know discretionary.  The CR is about discretionary spending, and yes Congress has a say over how it is spent.  What it doesn't have a say about is Mandatory spending.  But, then, mandatory spending isn't part of the CR or this government shut down.

The House Republicans are trying to boot strap a de-funding of ACA in the CR, hoping that people are too confused about the type of spending it all is.  And you know what, people are confused.  But, it is really simple.  As I have said a number of times now, in order to have ACA de-funded it would have to be a special amendment, and I'm not sure it could be done even then.  You could postpone implementation of the mandate--maybe.  That's probably why the House Republicans dropped the de-fund ACA thing, because it isn't a simple accounting fix.  It's a major bill because you'd have to remove several taxes, etc.  Why?  Because, like SS and Medicare, ACA has its own funding stream,.   And, because it has its own revenue stream, it is NOT discretionary spending.  It is mandatory spending.

So, no.  Congress cannot just de-fund whatever it wants to.  Only certain discretionary items can be de-funded, and ask any Congressman, even that isn't so easy.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#68 Nonny

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:33 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 14 October 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

People on this board don't seem to accept sources from sites like Foxnews.

That's because we prefer news sites.
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#69 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:28 PM

View PostNonny, on 15 October 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:


That's because we prefer news sites.

Like MSNBC? cause they never put THEIR own spin on news. Hell, for that matter...most if not all news site's put their own spin on the news.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#70 Cait

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:34 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 15 October 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:



Like MSNBC? cause they never put THEIR own spin on news. Hell, for that matter...most if not all news site's put their own spin on the news.

That's a good point.  Tell me, how do you trust any news you get?  I mean where do you go for news you can "almost" trust?  How do you form opinions if all the news you get is biased?

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#71 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:37 PM

View PostCait, on 15 October 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

That's a good point.  Tell me, how do you trust any news you get?  I mean where do you go for news you can "almost" trust?  How do you form opinions if all the news you get is biased?

Oh that is simple: I watch both. I'll watch foxnews for awhile, and then I will watch some MSNBC...as long as Chris Matthews and Chris Hayes aren't on at the time. I'll get both sides and their spin, then I'll form my own opinion about it.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#72 SparkyCola

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:59 AM

^ Try the BBC? They have no vested interest in either side of US politics. Even for UK politics they are very neutral and professional, in fact because they are tax-funded they must present a fair and balanced view of the political sides involved.

The Guardian is unashamedly left-leaning, but has one of, if not THE highest standard of quality journalism in the UK at the moment. The Times is their right-leaning counterpart.

Unlike FauxNews, and perhaps MSNBC, both are reliably accurate when it comes to facts, and more central/disinterested than news sources like The Telegraph and so on.

Personally I use Google News and select variously left or right leaning papers based on quality above all else. The Times may be right-wing but it's the comments section where that comes out -the articles themselves are trustworthy. Isn't the New York Times fairly reliable?

LotS: I don't think it's a good thing to oscillate wildly between left-lies and right-lies to try and deduce what might be the truth. Then you're just leaving yourself open to whichever is better at lying. If you respect the journalistic quality of a news source, it doesn't matter if they are right or left leaning - you know they will never knowingly lie to your face, and their sources can be trusted.

Sparky

Edited by SparkyCola, 16 October 2013 - 03:03 AM.

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#73 Kota

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:33 PM

Posted Image

Classic example!

LOL

#74 Omega

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:08 PM

It is indeed a classic example, but not of what you think.

https://en.wikipedia...#Public_opinion

Quote

A Gallup poll released on October 9, found that 28% of Americans had a favorable opinion of the Republican Party, down 10 points from September, and the lowest rating for either party since Gallup started measuring party favorability in 1992. The Democratic Party had a 43% favorable rating, compared with 47% the previous month. President Obama’s job approval was at 44%, about the same as when the shutdown began.[130]

A Gallup poll on the public's job approval of Congress released on October 7 (conducted on Oct. 3–6), showed a near all-time low approval rate on that branch of government at only 11%, a drop from the 19% in September. The poll also revealed the average person's approval rate of their own representative at 44%.[131]

An ABC News/Washington Post poll released on October 7, one week after the shutdown, found that 24% approved of Congressional Republicans' handling of the shutdown while 70% disapprove. For Congressional Democrats, 35% approved and 61% disapproved, while President Obama had a 45% approval and 51% disapproval rating.[132]

A Fox News poll on October 3, blamed Republicans at 42% (25% for 'Republican leaders' and 17% for 'Tea Party'). 32% blamed Democrats (24% for 'President Obama' and 8% for 'Democratic leaders'). The rest, 20%, said all sides are to blame.[133][134]

On the eve of the shutdown, a CNN/ORC poll found that 46% of the country would primarily fault congressional Republicans, 36% of the country would fault Obama, and 13% would fault both equally in the event of a shutdown.[135] General sentiment was against the shutdown, with approximately 6 out of 10 respondents desiring a budget agreement and only 1 out of 3 respondents believing it to be more important to block the implementation of the Affordable Care Act by cutting government funding.[136] Likewise, the predominant attitude towards Congress as a whole was one of strong dissatisfaction as surveyed in the Washington Post-ABC poll released on September 30. While congressional Republicans fared worst in the public eye as compared to Obama or their Democratic colleagues, both parties suffered higher disapproval than approval ratings for their handling of budget negotiations: Democrats by a margin of 34% in approval to 56% in disapproval and Republicans by a margin of 26% approving to 63% disapproving.




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