Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Obamacare a tax or penalty?

Health ObamaCare 2013

  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 3,887 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:21 AM

If I understand a few things right, one of the big reasons why the Supreme Court made Obamacare constitutional was because the penalty was called a tax.

If I understand the word "tax" correctly, it's a fee you pay to the government for something you just bought, or in the case of income, earn.

If I understand the word "penalty" correctly, it's what you incur for breaking a law or rule.

Now, if you choose not to get insurance, you have to pay a penalty.  Obviously a penalty because you are not buying a good, or in this case, a service.

How can it be called a tax if you are not buying this good/service?

How can it be constitutional?  Because one word was changed?  Pyramid schemes are illegal, yet "multi-level marketing" is just another way of calling it that, but those go on everywhere.  Do I need to quote Shakespeare about a rose, or am I clear on what I am saying?

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic or snark, even though it may come off that way.  I just want to have answers, because I have a lot of issues with Obamacare, some that will affect my mom and given certain choices, me.  One of my first issues is the constitutionality of Obamacare.

#2 Omega

Omega

    Maktel shcree lotak meta setak Oz!

  • Moderator
  • 4,028 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:10 AM

It's not any different in effect from, say, the higher education tax credit. You do business with entity X, you pay less tax. You don't, you pay more. The semantics vary, but the effect is identical, and in no way new.

#3 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:26 AM

Quote

If I understand a few things right, one of the big reasons why the Supreme Court made Obamacare constitutional was because the penalty was called a tax.
A little sleight of hand from a Supreme Court Justice who temporarily donned the hat of legislator to save 0bama's a$$
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#4 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:35 PM

Quote

Farscape One: I'm really not trying to be sarcastic or snark, even though it may come off that way.  I just want to have answers, because I have a lot of issues with Obamacare, some that will affect my mom and given certain choices, me.  One of my first issues is the constitutionality of Obamacare.

As far as I understand it, the Court read the matter as the equivalent of a tax, arguing that taxes are often used to incentivize and disincentivize behaviors. People are given tax breaks to encourage behaviors: investing in homes, educations, business. And are levied taxes to discourage behaviors: so-called "sin" taxes.

As for whether or not it's Constitutional, it was ruled so just last summer. So that is settled. People may not like it, but it is what it is.

As for the issues you and your mom have to deal with regarding ACA, have you researched yet to see what is available to you in your state's exchange?

Kaiser is a good place to get basic info:

https://individual-f...and_marketplace

If you want to talk about any specifics, I'd be happy to help you research stuff. I'm sure others would, too.

I know that having a new bill is nerve-wracking, no matter how much of a subsidy folks get to help with it. That was my big complaint about the ACA, in fact. I know that a public option (government-run) in the insurance exchanges would have been cheaper than any private insurance. In fact, Medicare-for-all would have been my preference--commie that I apparently am ;) .

But seriously, if you want some help researching stuff, just holla.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#5 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 3,887 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

I know it was ruled constitutional.  They did it on my birthday, much to my dismay.

#6 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:26 PM

So am I right to assume that you don't have insurance and are browsing the exchange in your state? How is it looking?
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#7 scherzo

scherzo

    I know things

  • Islander
  • 3,388 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:46 PM

Quote

I know it was ruled constitutional.  They did it on my birthday, much to my dismay.
The Supreme Court(or "9 lawyers in black robes" as I prefer to call them) have found several dubious things "Constitutional" over their checkered history. How fortunate their almost unanimous approval of racial segregation in the late 19th century, wasn't considered "settled" by people who actually give a damn about the Constitution. As sketchy as The Supremes track record is, few decisions have been as strained as a sleazy John Roberts declaring the individual mandate a tax, when the architects of the law were arguing the exact opposite. I can't say with any certainty what his motivation was, but we're all in BIG trouble because of it.
"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."    -Ronald Reagan, October 27 1964
Posted Image

#8 BklnScott

BklnScott

    FKA ScottEVill

  • Islander
  • 18,142 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:55 PM

View Postscherzo, on 16 October 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Quote

I know it was ruled constitutional.  They did it on my birthday, much to my dismay.
The Supreme Court(or "9 lawyers in black robes" as I prefer to call them) have found several dubious things "Constitutional" over their checkered history.

Yes.  And people had to live with it until the make up of the court changed sufficiently to take another shot.  Bowers v Hardwick comes to mind - took almost 20 years to overturn that.  My basic civil rights were fatally compromised at the Federal level for that entire period (and remained fatally compromised for another 10 years after Lawrence overturned it - until Windsor finally affirmed that, yes, people like me should be treated equally under the law.  Still, I didn't advocate burning down the government over it.

Edited by BklnScott, 16 October 2013 - 05:56 PM.

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#9 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 3,887 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:24 PM

View PostSpectacles, on 16 October 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

So am I right to assume that you don't have insurance and are browsing the exchange in your state? How is it looking?

Wrong assumption on both counts.  I'm looking to try to add my mom on my plan, or find one for her while I pay for it.

I heard that once you are under Obamacare, you can never be taken off.  Even if you find something for yourself.  Plus, you have to give your account numbers to them, and basically give them access to it.  I refuse to let that happen.

I'm not going to let these asshats have any more control than they already have.  But more than that, that's my mom and I'll take care of her because that's my job, not the job of some pencil pusher dick behind a computer screen.

I lost my grandmother before her time because of the indifference of doctors.  I'm not losing my last family member to that AND some pencil pusher.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 16 October 2013 - 06:27 PM.


#10 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:55 PM

Quote

Farscape One: I heard that once you are under Obamacare, you can never be taken off.  Even if you find something for yourself.

I can't imagine how that's true. "Obamacare" is actually a private insurance plan that you choose from a menu offered by your state's exchange. The insurers participating are already-existing, well-known insurance companies.



Some states have several different companies offering plans. In those states, the premiums tend to be lower because of the competition.

You select from five levels of coverage/premiums--much like you do regular insurance (since that is what it is).

Companies enrolled in your state's program give you bids and you choose.

Subsidies are available for individuals earning up to 45000 and families of 4 earning up to 92000.

http://kff.org/inter...idy-calculator/

That's pretty much what it is. There is no one entity known as "Obamacare."

Subsidy levels fluctuate with income fluctuations.

If your mom is unemployed and uninsured, she may qualify for free insurance. It's worth checking out.

But if you have a good insurance plan through work, it might be better to add her to your plan, as you say.

I don't blame you for being worried at all, especially not with all the rumors floating around. And I totally sympathize with wanting to do what's best for your mom. Mine lived with me in the last years of her life. If it weren't for Medicare and her Medicare supplement, I would have had huge medical bills to worry about on top of her failing health. As we get older, we just need more medical care. It's a sad fact of life....

I wish you both the best.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#11 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 3,887 posts

Posted 19 October 2013 - 10:47 AM

Spectacles, thank you for your assistance.

#12 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 3,887 posts

Posted 19 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostOmega, on 16 October 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

It's not any different in effect from, say, the higher education tax credit. You do business with entity X, you pay less tax. You don't, you pay more. The semantics vary, but the effect is identical, and in no way new.

But you are still paying for a service... college.  College is a choice, not a requirement by law.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 19 October 2013 - 10:52 AM.


#13 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 19 October 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 19 October 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Spectacles, thank you for your assistance.

I'm just really wishing you the best. You're obviously a good son. :)
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#14 Omega

Omega

    Maktel shcree lotak meta setak Oz!

  • Moderator
  • 4,028 posts

Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:41 PM

Pay for health insurance or pay higher taxes. Pay for college or pay higher taxes. Calling one required by law and the other not is a word game. The outcomes are identical and that's all that matters.

#15 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 3,887 posts

Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostOmega, on 19 October 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Pay for health insurance or pay higher taxes. Pay for college or pay higher taxes. Calling one required by law and the other not is a word game. The outcomes are identical and that's all that matters.

Eventually, you get out of college.  And besides that, sometimes whatever tax breaks you get for going to college doesn't really affect what is taken out depending on what bracket you are in.

This penalty affects everyone no matter what bracket they are in.  So yes, still quite different.

#16 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 26 October 2013 - 12:10 PM

FarscapeOne, I don't know if this is new or what, but apparently you can now get more specific information about plans available to choose from in your county:

https://www.healthca...mium-estimates/

This way provides the most specific plan info I've found yet.

Once you've researched the options, you can call 1-800-318-2596 to talk with a real person about them.

Edited by Spectacles, 26 October 2013 - 12:12 PM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Health, ObamaCare, 2013

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users