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It's time to be skeptical of all sources regarding Obamacare

Health Care ObamaCare 2013

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#1 Spectacles

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 09:32 AM

This is mad spin time.

The website is a disaster. But it can be fixed. The big question is when and we just can't know until it happens.

Now that the GOP has finally had sense enough to stop obstructing everything, they can focus their efforts on scaring people about Obamacare.

Of course, the absolute MESS the exchange website apparently is--by all accounts--makes their job much easier.

But there are going to be spinmasters on the right that work hard to scare people into being up in arms against health insurance reforms that actually BENEFIT them and their kids.

Do away with [thunder]Obamacare[/thunder] and you make these things happen:

* insurers can refuse to cover you and your loved ones because of pre-existing conditions like diabetes, asthma, heart disease, cancer

* insurers can refuse to pay your medical bills once you've reached your "lifetime limit" on expenditures. (This was an effective technique to cut off very sick people who required more medical care.)

* insurers can go back to allowing young adults to stay on their parents insurance up to age 22 ONLY if they are in college, booting a lot of people up to age 27 off their parents' insurance.

* insurers can charge more for coverage for women and older people.

* insurers can stop providing free-of-copay preventive care and all sorts of other minimal coverages dictated in Obamacare.

In short, it is NOT a good deal for Americans to roll back the ACA. It doesn't do enough, but it does do SOME good toward making insurance more accessible and more affordable.

So think hard about it when you get swept up in the anti-ACA hysteria.

And if you believe anything you hear on FoxNews, I have some swamp land in Florida for sale.

http://www.salon.com...kusaolp00000008

Quote

I happened to turn on the Hannity show on Fox News last Friday evening. “Average Americans are feeling the pain of Obamacare and the healthcare overhaul train wreck,” Hannity announced, “and six of them are here tonight to tell us their stories.”  Three married couples were neatly arranged in his studio, the wives seated and the men standing behind them, like game show contestants.

As Hannity called on each of them, the guests recounted their “Obamacare” horror stories: canceled policies, premium hikes, restrictions on the freedom to see a doctor of their choice, financial burdens upon their small businesses and so on.

“These are the stories that the media refuses to cover,” Hannity interjected.

But none of it smelled right to me.

The author had a good idea of what was in the ACA because "I have worked as a senior adviser to a governor and helped him deal with the new federal rules."

So he actually tracked down the people Hannity had on his show, the ones who told their horror stories.

Quote

First I spoke with Paul Cox of Leicester, N.C.  He and his wife Michelle had lamented to Hannity that because of Obamacare, they can’t grow their construction business and they have kept their employees below a certain number of hours, so that they are part-timers.

Obamacare has no effect on businesses with 49 employees or less. But in our brief conversation on the phone, Paul revealed that he has only four employees. Why the cutback on his workforce? “Well,” he said, “I haven’t been forced to do so, it’s just that I’ve chosen to do so. I have to deal with increased costs.” What costs? And how, I asked him, is any of it due to Obamacare? There was a long pause, after which he said he’d call me back. He never did.

Quote

Next I called Allison Denijs.  She’d told Hannity that she pays over $13,000 a year in premiums. Like the other guests, she said she had recently gotten a letter from Blue Cross saying that her policy was being terminated and a new, ACA-compliant policy would take its place. She says this shows that Obama lied when he promised Americans that we could keep our existing policies.

Allison’s husband left his job a few years ago, one with benefits at a big company, to start his own business. Since then they’ve been buying insurance on the open market, and are now paying around $1,100 a month for a policy with a $2,500 deductible per family member, with hefty annual premium hikes.  One of their two children is not covered under the policy. She has a preexisting condition that would require purchasing additional coverage for $600 a month, which would bring the family’s grand total to around $20,000 a year.

Of course, she had not looked to see what their actual options were under the exchange. This is in part because of the damned website glitches, but also because she just hates it. She's long hated it.

Quote

I tried an experiment and shopped on the exchange for Allison and Kurt. Assuming they don’t smoke and have a household income too high to be eligible for subsidies, I found that they would be able to get a plan for around $7,600, which would include coverage for their uninsured daughter. This would be about a 60 percent reduction from what they would have to pay on the pre-Obamacare market.

And this is what's sad to me. Here is a family that could BENEFIT from the ACA but they are too indoctrinated to give it a try.

The author then interviews the third couple.

Quote


Finally, I called Robbie and Tina Robison from Franklin, Tenn.  Robbie is self-employed as a Christian youth motivational speaker. (You can see his work here.) On Hannity, the couple said that they, too, were recently notified that their Blue Cross policy would be expiring for lack of ACA compliance. They told Hannity that the replacement plans Blue Cross was offering would come with a rate increase of 50 percent or even 75 percent, and that the new offerings would contain all sorts of benefits they don’t need, like maternity care, pediatric care, prenatal care and so forth.  Their kids are grown and moved out, so why should they be forced to pay extra for a health plan with superfluous features?

When I spoke to Robbie, he said he and Tina have been paying a little over $800 a month for their plan, about $10,000 a year. And the ACA-compliant policy that will cost 50-75 percent more? They said this information was related to them by their insurance agent.

Had they shopped on the exchange yet, I asked? No, Tina said, nor would they. They oppose Obamacare and want nothing to do with it. Fair enough, but they should know that I found a plan for them for, at most, $3,700 a year, 63 percent less than their current bill.  It might cover things that they don’t need, but so does every insurance policy.

This is sad. These people have been brainwashed into being opposed to something that would actually save them a considerable amount of money each year.

So be careful what you believe. The ACA is far from perfect. But it's also hardly the scary-horrible thing that the Sean Hannitys of the country make it out to be.

While the @#!!&-ing stupid website is under repair, folks can at least go here to see approximately what insurance/subsidies they can get on the exchange:

http://kff.org/inter...idy-calculator/


Or they can just do what these people did and "know" how bad it is--without even checking, sort of like not looking at your lottery ticket because you just "know" you didn't win anything anyway. And maybe you didn't. But maybe....
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#2 offworlder

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:45 PM

what I want to know is, how do you guys have fiveG for insurance a year?:(
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#3 Godeskian

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:55 PM

Makes you really appreciate the NHS doesn't it.

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#4 Mikoto

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:15 PM

It sure does Gode. I can't even imagine what my medical costs would be in the US.
Rejected and gone.

#5 Anakam

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:22 PM

The calculator may not be up to date regarding some state's Medicaid expansions.  I don't believe it's up to date for my current state, as our expansion has been in the news.

I had a rant here about my income and Medicaid and even the subsidies, but I'll sit on it for a little while.

Question made sort of on topic by folks replying who live in countries with socialized medicine: I think our plans now have to be 9.5% or less of our income (the affordable standard).  Is that about what you tend to pay into your country's system, do you think?  (Sorry, I don't even know if it's itemized or not.)
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#6 Balthamos

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:28 PM

National Insurance (which contributes to more than just the NHS) is fixed rate of 12%. If you earn too little you pay nothing. You only pay 2% above a given threshold as far as I understand this. Not sure what the threshold is though.

#7 sierraleone

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:30 PM

View PostAnakam, on 19 October 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Question made sort of on topic by folks replying who live in countries with socialized medicine: I think our plans now have to be 9.5% or less of our income (the affordable standard).  Is that about what you tend to pay into your country's system, do you think?  (Sorry, I don't even know if it's itemized or not.)

Maybe some other Canadian can answer more knowlegdeably then I can ;) but I honestly don't know. I think it is funded out of general provincial revenues (supported by Federal transfers). If I am correct you'd probably have to figure out how much it is costing all levels of government per year and then divide it by the population. That would only cover what the public healthcare covers. While I think as a percentage of GDP it is about 11 or 12% I don't know if that is specifically about public healthcare or whether that includes insurance costs/payouts and out of pocket stuff.
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#8 Spectacles

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:31 AM

Bumping this because it's pretty much all I want to say about why I think it's too soon to call Obamacare a failure. It may also be too soon to call it a success. It's just too soon to know.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#9 FarscapeOne

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:43 AM

If we are to be fair, we have to be skeptical of all the "success" stories, as well.

The thread does say to "be wary of ALL sources regarding Obamacare".

#10 Spectacles

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:55 AM

^Of course. The White House is going to put as positive a spin on it as possible.

And there have been a few positive stories that turned out to be unfounded.

Just as these negative stories on Hannity turned out to be, to me, sad. These people could SAVE money and have better insurance if they would simply give the exchange a try. They won't--and it's not for practical reasons but for ideological ones.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#11 ilexx

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:20 AM

View PostAnakam, on 19 October 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Question made sort of on topic by folks replying who live in countries with socialized medicine: I think our plans now have to be 9.5% or less of our income (the affordable standard).  Is that about what you tend to pay into your country's system, do you think?  (Sorry, I don't even know if it's itemized or not.)

In Germany it's 14,4% of your income, in Romania it's 10,7%. I believe that all of the EU oscillates somwhere between those two figures. Employer and employee each have to come up with half of it.

#12 Spectacles

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:15 AM

I just now read this. I agree with his take on the situation:


http://www.washingto...-is-impossible/
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#13 Kota

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:22 AM

View PostSpectacles, on 30 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

I just now read this. I agree with his take on the situation:


http://www.washingto...-is-impossible/

The comments on this piece are priceless and more interesting than the article!


Loved this one about sums it up for me:


Quote

OBRon

"(Americans supposedly “losing” coverage) is ... a subset of a larger Republican refusal to have an actual debate about the law’s tradeoffs"

Okay, let me get this straight.

After the democrats:
1) literally rammed this legislation down the throats of Americans - the majority of which opposed the law - with virtually no debate, on a pure party-line vote, and
2) whose House leader, Nancy Pelosi, infamously said we had to pass the law "to find out what is in it" as if it were some sort of Christmas present, and
3) after Obama, himself, famously declared that if Americans liked their existing plans and doctors, they would be able to keep them, and
4) after the biggest government technology meltdown in history in implementing this unpopular law, AND
5) after millions of Americans have been notified they will, in fact, be losing their existing plans and/or paying far more for insurance than they were before,

now, NOW, Greg wants to have a debate on the law's tradeoffs???

How about back before the law was passed, junior? What a concept, huh?

No, Greg. The dems, liberals, progressives - and most important - Obama, own it, lock, stock, and barrel with whatever negative consequences come out of this. Republicans and any American who fought against this law from the start are NOT part of the problem, Greg.

You - and your ilk - are.

Sorry! Jus' the facts, ma'am.


#14 Spectacles

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:46 PM

http://www.mediaite....junk-insurance/
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#15 tennyson

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:21 PM

I see this as part of a wider trend in our culture of ever increasing presentism and lack of historical memory. Projects, especially government projects, are declared failures before they even had a chance to do anything. A few weeks is not long enough to judge wether any legislation as complicated and comphrensive as this is a success or failure. Projects as large as this can't generate instant results, especialy instant results for everyone. Every project has a learning curve and if those in charge of that ignore this then they will be constantly moving from canceled project to canceled project because they are so focused on the short term that they don't allow the projects to reach fruition. It's also the same attitude in business that gave us the last recession. The focus on short-term gains at all costs masked the larger trends for people who should have known better. Economies cycle and no trend lasts forever. These are very basic things.
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