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ADDB/TUM, Time Travel, and Fate v. Free Will


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#1 Christopher

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Posted 05 February 2003 - 06:10 PM

Moderator's note: several posts were misplaced to the beginning of the thread during the server move. Their text has been added to the ends of the preceding messages.

Edited by Christopher, 04 March 2003 - 05:33 PM.

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#2 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 06:49 PM

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Angel Dark Demon Bright is a superior piece of sf television, no question and I think Kevin out did even Keith in it. I watched it recently with friends (it was a non Drom viewing get together and the last new one we'd seen was And Your Heart Will Fly Away so you can imagine our reaction to ADDB...)

Anyway what always bothered me about ADDB is that it seemed to undermine the idea that we make our own fate. Dylan's hard choice seems a whole lot less difficult if it turns out it's what he did anyway.

In TUM Rhade pulled the trigger not knowing about the "Angel of Death" which for me gives it more poignancy.

Also he did make his own fate. The fact that Dylan doesn't remember that scar shows me that Rhade did in fact change the past.

Which is ironic given that in general I prefer time travel stories where the past cannot be changed (like Twelve Monkeys) v. those in which the reset button is available (the Terminator movies).

Hmmmm.

I adore that this is an ep that can even make me have thoughts like this (as opposed to making me want to slap tptb silly).

Thoughts?  Comments? Smites for starting a discussion about time travel?

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#3 DWF

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 06:59 PM

I don't think the Terminator movies, have a reset button, if they did at the end of the second one, Sarah should have returned to the life she had, at the beginning of the first movie.

The real question is, did Rhade change the past, or simply become part of it? :p  :p

Considering the changes in the timeline, I'd say he crossover from, an alternate reality. I still don't quite understand the opening, with the splitting of the two Rommies(isn't that an other TV show? ;) ) .

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#4 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 07:07 PM

Well if he'd "become" part of the past wouldn't Dylan remember the scar?

Or wait...if he'd "changed" the past shouldn't Dylan "still" remember the scar?
*sigh* I really ought to know better than to get into this stuff but I just can't help it.

For the first time since....well a very long time, Drom has made me really THINK.

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#5 DWF

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 07:15 PM

Well, since he came from the future, he became part of the past, after he killed his younger self. And I agree with Cardie, once he did that, he should've went "poof", yet another reason why, I think he came from an alternate universe. :D
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#6 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 07:20 PM

I don't think he came from an alternate universe.

I think he is part of the time line.  The issue is whether what happened with TUM is consistent with ADDB.  My gut says that when all is said and done it *is* consistent with ADDB but my brain is too mushy to articulate exactly how and why right now.

*Yes DWF that does raise the issue of why anyone feeling as mushy brained as I do would even start this kind of topic right now*   :Oo:

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#7 Kevin Street

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 07:24 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan. 29 2003,16:49, said:

TUM

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Also he (Rhade) did make his own fate. The fact that Dylan doesn't remember that scar shows me that Rhade did in fact change the past.
I think DWF has the right of it here. Most of "TUM" took place in a completely seperate universe, a cosmos absolutely identical to "ours" (the show's universe, anyway), except for that fight on the command deck, and what came after.

The Rhade we see in "Under the Night," the Rhade that Dylan used to think of as his friend, dies before he even gets to the command deck - and he's replaced by the "Rhade" from "TUM" - a different individual who happens to be identical to "our" Rhade.

Otherwise, "TUM" wouldn't be consistent with "ADDB." What "ADDB" showed is that there are no second chances. Once something is done, it can't be changed.

Btw, that Beka avatar rocks!  :)

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#8 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 07:36 PM

I disagree.  If it was an alternate universe then what was the point of Rhade doing what he did if all it was going to do is save an alternate time line?

And if it was an alternate universe then why does Dylan's universe suddenly disappear?

I think it's all the same universe.

Just like the future Trance came from in Ouroboros.


There is no incentive for Rhade to sacrifice himself *unless* this is all happening in the same universe imo.

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#9 Cardie

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 07:46 PM

The reason I wish that Christopher's time travel theory was not contradicted by "Tunnel" is that it would go along way to saying that you can't change the past in your own timeline but that the events of Ouroboros gave a brief window in which you could jump to another timeline. I suppose that's what Trance is doing with Dylan's timeline though, helping create a timeline in which he, Tyr, Harper and the Andromeda survived the first Deriva incursion, just as Rhade has gone back to create a timeline in which he died and Dylan lived.

Anyway, enough babble, onto the predestination thing and changing the Dylan timeline that we know as "all the episodes of Andromeda." When Tyr comes in and tells Rhade that he is the Angel of Death, Rhade doesn't ask what Tyr is talking about. I'm assuming there was a parallel scene on the bridge we just didn't see in which Tyr spoke of the Nietzschean legend. Rhade, unlike Dylan, initiated the idea of wiping out the 1000 Niet ships, but it was still his choice and he knew before giving the final command that it was the choice he made, as had Dylan. Dylan's choice too is his own. History records what he did because he did it, but it doesn't constrain his choice. It's just that knowing what happened may have influenced him to make it happen. Since we see that it could have happened and not been due to Dylan's actions, the historical record doesn't in any way rob Dylan of the free will to make any choice he wants to make.

As for the scar, alternate timeline Rhade only spends those very few minutes with Dylan during the fight on the bridge, and then Dylan is frozen right after Rhade dies. I'd say that with all that was going on, he simply didn't see the scar, and he may well have had Rommie send the Marias to put Rhade's body in storage. It's not that he fought the same battle with the unscarred Rhade in this timeline, and then the time travelling Rhade substituted for him. When the unscarred Rhade came to command, he killed Dylan. That's the timeline we see in TUM, and it only briefly intersected the one that has comprised the show during the tesseract event.

Now I'm sure that someone can do screen caps of UTN and find a good enough view of Rhade's unscarred left hand to say "gotcha," but that has to be fudged. TUM makes no sense unless we believe that our Dylan had one battle with one Rhade in command and that Rhade had travelled from the future of another timeline with a scarred left hand. There is no history of Dylan fighting an unscarred Rhade and living to tell about it that TUM somehow changes or erases. Like Zack said, it's an X.

I'm sure that made tons of sense!   :D

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#10 DWF

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 07:50 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Jan. 30 2003,02:36, said:

I disagree.  If it was an alternate universe then what was the point of Rhade doing what he did if all it was going to do is save an alternate time line?

And if it was an alternate universe then why does Dylan's universe suddenly disappear?

I think it's all the same universe.

Just like the future Trance came from in Ouroboros.


There is no incentive for Rhade to sacrifice himself *unless* this is all happening in the same universe imo.

Lil
Trance has many times mentioned, there being one perfect future, so if there's one perfect future, what about the rest?  ???

And there were changes to the two time lines. Christopher noticed alot of them. For one, after Dylan killed Rhade the first time, he then went straight into the 300 year time leap, but Rhade was able to take Dylan's body off the bridge(no doubt because they rebuild the old bridge). And Rhade seemed different to me, much more human, not like the man from the pilot, or any of the flashbacks.

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#11 Cardie

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 08:00 PM

Lil, imo the reason Rhade has to sacrifice himself to start an alternate timeline, but not exactly an alternate universe, is that I believe Trance and her people are working feverishly to prevent SotA and co. from destroying all existence. Remember the two Trances talking about whether they had managed to win or not? If it was just that in Rhade's timeline you still had people behaving as badly as they always had in the post-THUD universe, then maybe he should just do the best he can in that timeline. But if they don't find the one who can be the catalyst for defeating SotA, then all timelines in this universe will end in apocalypse. That may be what Trance told Rhade; I'm sure it's why she wants Dylan alive and why she turns on the tesseract machine, because if she hadn't Hohne would still be alive, but Dylan wouldn't, Rhade's opportunity to go back and spare him having been lost. (Of course, since she's there in the room with Dylan, it's obvious that she did manage to turn it on. :)

Granted I'm only speculating, but I think it has to be something like that.

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#12 Rhys

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 08:04 PM

I agree with what Cardie said:  Dylan just didn't have an opportunity to notice the scar.

I'd also recommend waiting 'til you see "The Dark Backward" before making any firm pronouncements about timelines based on anything Trance has said.  :alien:

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#13 Bad Wolf

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 08:13 PM

I don't think Trance is talking about alternate time lines.  She is saying that she can predict (with varying degrees of accuracy) what the consequences will be given a particular set of choices (like Tyr going on the mission for the engine of creation for example).

Cardie if what you are saying is true, and the Rhade Dylan in fact battled in UTN was "always" scarred Rhade then I *think* that's consistent with ADDB.  And I also don't think that means he came from an alternate reality.  It's all one reality in which the tides sometimes do strange thingies so that things happen....

out of order?

So that Rhade was able to defeat Dylan, make his mistakes, realize Dylan had to live, go back and kill Rhade and sacrifice himself in order to let Dylan's story (as seen in the show so far) happen.   It's just that because of the tides going sometimes not in a straight line that Dylan's future seems to happen before Rhade creates that future...

Okay did that make ANY sense??

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#14 Neptunian

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 08:18 PM

Slight Dark Backward spoilers



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Hmm... there was definitely a difference between Rhade's going back on the one hand and Trance & Beka going back in O as well as Trance's actions in Dark Backward on the other.

With Rhade, it's more of an intersection of separate universes, whereas the other two have a single timeline.


#15 jodihopper

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 08:32 PM

Two words for you:  Ocram's Razor.

You are not talking about two separate universes or two different timelines but two different realities that split at one point then cross and due to Rhade's sacrafice converge again. If both had continued then the Rhade one would have  become the only one because the circle began by Trance in O would not have been closed.  Therefore Dylan's reality would not have begun.


#16 DWF

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 08:40 PM

jodihopper, on Jan. 30 2003,03:32, said:

Two words for you:  Ocram's Razor.

You are not talking about two separate universes or two different timelines but two different realities that split at one point then cross and due to Rhade's sacrafice converge again. If both had continued then the Rhade one would have  become the only one because the circle began by Trance in O would not have been closed.  Therefore Dylan's reality would not have begun.
Two different realities, are two different universes, it's the same difference. ;)
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#17 jodihopper

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 08:49 PM

If the two had not been linked then maybe they would have become two seperate universes instead of two seperate  realities that could not continue to coexist they were still part of the same whole.  Both were closed circles and only one could break free of the cycle.

#18 Cardie

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 08:52 PM

Assuming we're not in some rapidly multiplying quantum universe, then yes, what you are saying is possible. That is, there is a causal loop by which Rhade gets to the point of the tesseract distrubance, finds out he'll never be able to save the universe, hops back into the past and lets Dylan live. However, this still contradicts ADDB, because the ADDB theory is that events only happen once: you cannot have a timeline in which Dylan dies at Hephaistos which is the same timeline in which he lives to awaken three hundred years later. The ADDB theory would hold only if Rhade's return and sacrifice saved Dylan in some other way than by killing his unscarred self ; that self would have to have never confronted Dylan (even though we and Dylan don't realize that) but got off the ship and somehow ended up 300 years in the future too as the Rhade whom Trance sends back.

If we hadn't had the Trance switch, however, we could at least be confident that there are only two timelines, Rhade's and Dylan's, and that things only happen once in each. This could be accomplished by Trance having acted on her visions of a bad future rather than saying that she has come back from bad futures to rewrite them in the case of both timelines. But then there'd have been no excuse for saddling us with Gold Trance.

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#19 DWF

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 09:37 PM

^^^A casual loop? ???  :D And Rhade was so formal. :)
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#20 Cardie

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 09:49 PM

DWF, on Jan. 29 2003,21:37, said:

^^^A casual loop? ???  :D And Rhade was so formal. :)
That's causal, DWF--and here you had me thinking I'd transposed the letters with my usual expert typing skills.

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