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Ukraine protests

Ukraine Riots 2014 European Union

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#1 Omega

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 09:46 PM

I'm not an expert on Ukraine, international politics, riots, or really much of anything besides electrical engineering and being a first-class smartypants. But there are some things going on that I find distressing.

The Euromaidan is a series of massive protests and riots that have been going on in Ukraine for two months now. These protests are huge. Overthrow-the-government huge. You see, Ukraine was right on the edge of signing a big agreement with the European Union. At the last minute, they backed off in response to pressure from Russia. Russia wants Ukraine to join a post-Soviet customs union. The current President of Ukraine is pretty much in the back pocket of Vladimir Putin, the strongman running Russia for the last decade.

Since by most polls, the Ukrainian public supports associating with the EU much more than associating with Russia (and really, who wouldn't?), this obviously made lots of people very angry. In response to early protests, the Ukrainian government passed (I use the term loosely) new laws making protest illegal.

So now there are huge protests in Kiev, tens of thousands demanding the resignation of the government. Police are getting more and more violent, including several deaths. I'm starting to have flashbacks of the start of the Syrian civil war. And I seriously doubt that Russia would let an allied despotic government next door be overthrown.

We may be watching the start of a new Russian empire.

Now tell me: have the news sources you follow mentioned any of this? The entire thing is being streamed, live! A catapult built by the protestors had a twitter feed! And CNN's top story was that Lady Gaga was no longer banned in China.

I'm doing a better job reporting than CNN. I wish I could be proud of that. Better information here.

#2 sierraleone

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:39 PM

I just saw an article title about this for the first time today. I didn't read it, so I didn't know what the protest were about. Though it wasn't that I didn't read it because I was busy reading about any Lady Gaga story ;)
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#3 offworlder

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 01:40 AM

long before, I read about them, Putin and his crony Yanuk guy, charging and ruining the rival leader of Ukraine,
and before that all the Orange revolution stuff,

now the majority of Ukraine want to have more free trade with Europe, but Putin wants Ukraine to be the bulwark of his new Soviet trade bloc, so bring on the barricades?

' will you join in our crusade, who will be strong and stand with me?'
' beyond the barricade is there a world you long to see?'
;)
so now,BBC Has the story,
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25853329

Russia remarked, poo poo'd, the Ukraine EU deal,
http://www.theguardi...on-trade-russia

and,
remember this is the place where  rival leader charged, maybe set up, with embezzlement, imprisoned,
http://en.ria.ru/tre...enko_case_2011/

now Yulia is the opposition gov leader,

US, EU, against new anti protest bills,
http://news.yahoo.co...-150556121.html

ps,
messages regarding Ukraine dropping in international regard, and Tymoshenko,

http://siteground239...pic=8397.0;wap2

What with Putin backing this guy(who backs him), sort of how they back Assad, so that power
against the people, what can be done?

ps,
2,
BATTLE in KIEV,
(photo play)
http://www.bbc.co.uk...ctures-25844899

:o

Edited by offworlder, 23 January 2014 - 01:42 AM.

"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#4 Spectacles

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 06:26 AM

Quote

Omega: I'm starting to have flashbacks of the start of the Syrian civil war.

I'm flashing back on Dr. Zhivago!

Seriously, this is very bad. NPR has been covering it a bit so I know just enough to be worried. Ol' Pooty-Poot, as GWB called him, is turning out to be quite the power-mad strong man--or at least the figurehead of a group of power-mad strong men. Not sure which, but I sure see him as a leader of an old, familiar malevolence in that part of the world.

Edited by Spectacles, 23 January 2014 - 06:27 AM.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#5 offworlder

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:34 PM

PROTESTERS Stormed the gov offices_
_
http://www.cbsnews.c...vych-intensify/
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#6 Themis

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 06:41 PM

BBC World News has covered it quite a bit but I confess I was only listening with one ear.  I was sick of CNN talking about Christie so switched stations.  The only thing in that region being talked about on NBC news is Sochi.
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#7 Nonny

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 11:08 AM

I've been following it all along, didn't post anything because I figured that if anybody else was interested, it would get a thread.

I follow the news about the former Soviet Eastern European countries, especially attempts to deRussify that too many Westerners dismiss as discrimination.  I also follow the news about the nations of the former Jugoslavia.  It's personal.
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#8 Spectacles

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:47 PM

Kiev looks hellish and surreal in these images:

http://www.dailykos....mages-from-Kiev
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#9 FnlPrblm

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:29 AM

I've been watching BBC news on BBCAmerica (semi-regularly) in the morning and they have been covering Ukraine's issues since (early-mid) November.  It really started out as a super peaceful protest.  Thousands had occupied a famous square in Kiev and soap-boxed their issues.  The police tried to remove them and thousands more joined in.  Soon, it was a kindle of a coup.  Except, the people didn't necessarily want a coup, they just wanted to have the trade treaty signed with the Euros.  But President Viktor Yanukovych (elected fairly by the people as the point was made), out right refused to sign the deal...making matters worse, he said this at the airport on his way to Russia to hear what they were offering.  This enraged people that they were being outright ignored and that their elected-president was seemingly taking a more dictatorial route.  This is exactly when the large scaled protest happening in the famous square, suddenly became a lit bonfire.

From what the BBC had reported (I will admit to not having seen it in a couple of days, so maybe things have finally really touched off, but) the real violence was kept to only a couple of nights and wasn't country widespread.  Are there buildings being taken over?  Yes, but unlike most coups, the aggressors aren't burning them down or killing off the govt supporters.  They seem to just be taking things over and cheer in victory with little casualties.  Even the pics Specs put up seem to support this (despite the captions).
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#10 ilexx

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:47 AM

Latest news on the Ukranian developments are:

1) Prime minister Azarov just handed in his letter of resignation.
2) Anti-protest laws have been scraped.
3) Yesterday, all opposition parties (well, the three major ones, anyway) refused the government's offer to form a coalition with the party in power.
4) Since Friday last week anti-government (and anti-Russian) protests have spread to Eastern Ukraine (that so far has always been labelled as traditionally pro-Russian).
5) So far, no word from Russia. But Putin is being expected today in Brussels to attend the EU-Russia-Summit, so we'll know more this evening.

#11 Spectacles

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 11:36 AM

Interesting times.....All we on the sidelines can do is hope that it leads to good.

The problem with human movements/revolutions is that we're good at getting riled up en masse, but when the actual change happens, too few principled leaders emerge to ensure smooth and equitable transitions to the new system--or, worse, haven't a real clue as to what that system should be.

It is far easier to be united in opposition to a common enemy than it is to iron out our individual differences fairly and create a better way. We need leaders to help us do that. The good ones usually get killed (MLK, Gandhi) by someone who lives to be angry--or some cabal that prefers unrest.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#12 ilexx

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 05:04 PM

Interesting times, indeed.

Predictably, neither Putin nor Baroso or van Rompuy said much in front of the cameras. But the summit was cut short from two days down to one and a half hour, without asking Mr. Putin to stay over for dinner - which apparently is to be considered a daring act... :rolleyes:  The press was told only something about very "open and honest" words being said by all three of them. So I'm guessing that behind closed doors there must have been some statements...

Meanwhile both the EU and the US have clearly taken position during the Munich conference, and Mr. Lavrov's reaction left very little to be desired in terms of where exactly Russia stands on this:

Quote

"Why are many prominent European politicians actually encouraging such actions, although back home they are quick to severely punish any violations of the law?"

(I'm wondering when and where in Europe - Belarus set aside - demonstrations have been severely punished for demonstrating against the government, but whatever...)

And:

Quote

Interfax also quoted Mr Lavrov as saying: "When John Kerry... says that Ukraine should choose who it is with - with the whole world or with one country, Kerry - with his experience, good sense - is the last person I would expect such propaganda from."


#13 offworlder

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:10 PM

after the horrible killing of civilians in the streets,
Kiev has a new gov starting, Yulia is out... and Yanuk is on the run,

http://www.theguardi...al-live-updates

http://www.theguardi...ets-in-pictures

http://www.theguardi...t-west-violence

http://www.theguardi...ng-bullet-wound

http://www.theguardi...-killed-in-kiev

POLICE fire on protesters,
http://www.theguardi...ters-kiev-video

PSedit, let's stick in this neat thing from Kyev Post,
https://www.kyivpost...rge-337361.html
;)

Edited by offworlder, 22 February 2014 - 04:34 PM.

"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#14 ilexx

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:28 AM

And now we have the Russian combat troops on high alert: http://www.reuters.c...EA1G0OU20140226... FRom my occasionally very strictly Romanian POV, things are starting to get decidedly too interesting.

#15 offworlder

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:23 PM

here are vids ;) from cnn, 1st up is opulent palace of corrupt president, you can oggle along with citizens; if you let the ending auto-roll to next, if auto is on, you see next vid, Crimea tensions, as Russia concerned over their people in Crimea part of Ukraine, plus pro-Russia protesters took over gov buidling in Crimea. http://www.cnn.com/v....cnn.com/WORLD/

ps,edit in, photos of opulent palace estate incl sat map, location, lakeside, golf course(private on estate), hordes of treasures, over the top fantastical dream of Tzar realm sovereignty furnishings like mental gone bonkers of dukes and princes and imperial wannabe ;) billions stolen, corrupt, crockery, knick knacks, inlaid rare material floors, just way flamboyant- http://www.theatlant...anukovich/8477/

Edited by offworlder, 27 February 2014 - 04:28 PM.

"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#16 BklnScott

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:48 PM

This is very scary stuff.  Thank you for your analysis, ilexx.

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#17 ilexx

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 02:09 AM

"Scary" is definitely the right word for it. After the ground combat troops on high alert the day before yesterday, we now also have the Russian air force on high alert since yesterday.

The Ukraine has according to its new prime minister roundabout 300.000 $ still at their disposal, the EU and the US offered 1 bln. € each to ease immediate problems - and now we'll have to wait and see what the IMF does.

And in Crimea, where meanwhile not only Ukrainians but also the tatars are clashing openly with Russian ethnics (whose numbers have miraculously and exponentially increased there over the past months - much in the way they had increased in Ossetia before the "Georgian" crisis turned into a war), we get to see exactly how the destabilization policy is working that Russia is also trying in Moldova and Georgia (that both have signed the special partnership pacts that actually ignited the Ukraine crisis).

So now we're all playing chicken.

Edited by ilexx, 28 February 2014 - 02:11 AM.


#18 Raijin

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:59 AM

View Postilexx, on 28 February 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

And in Crimea, where meanwhile not only Ukrainians but also the tatars are clashing openly with Russian ethnics (whose numbers have miraculously and exponentially increased there over the past months - much in the way they had increased in Ossetia before the "Georgian" crisis turned into a war), we get to see exactly how the destabilization policy is working that Russia is also trying in Moldova and Georgia (that both have signed the special partnership pacts that actually ignited the Ukraine crisis).

I'm Russian and I'm not sure what you mean there. There was no increase of "Russian ethnics" in Ossetia. Most people there have always been Ossetian and they genuinely hate the Georgians. Not Putin's propaganda hate, for real. Ossetians traditionally remember grievances for a very long time. There were many with Russian passports but they are not ethnic Russians.

Crimea is 58% Russian and only about 12% Tatar (rest being Ukrainian). And about 70% use mainly the Russian language in their everyday life.This has always been the case.

#19 FnlPrblm

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 06:55 AM

Raijin, (not to pry), but are you in Russia right now?  What and how is the situation in Ukraine being described there (or if you're not there, from a Russian point of view, if you're reading their news pages)?  Are they reporting on the unknown military presence who've shown up, blocking off the airports, but residing in silence as to who they are or why they've blocked things off?


The IMF is sending a team on the ground right now to assess the economic situation.  But honestly, I don't see anyone putting money into a country which is seemingly inevitable to crash into either a civil war, rebellion or the even possibly, if very vaguely unlikely next start of a world or regional war.  If it was simply a matter of money, this would have been solved awhile ago.  Russia (if only politically) has always despised the fact that the Ukraine left Russia.

I'm not actually that bothered by Russia suiting up it's borders with military units "training".  Most border countries do this when their neighbors are falling into havoc.  It's A) to help stop or aid the flood or refugees B) stop the flood of violence spreading into their borders.


Are weapons of any sort legal to buy/own there, like in the U.S.?  What about in Russia?
"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes: The Beryl Coronet

The Boscombe Valley Mystery: "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing." --- Ralph Waldo Emerson 'Art,' 1841

"Such welcome and unwelcome things at once, 'Tis hard to reconcile." --- Macbeth IV.III.138-9


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#20 ilexx

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 07:27 AM

View PostRaijin, on 28 February 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

View Postilexx, on 28 February 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

And in Crimea, where meanwhile not only Ukrainians but also the tatars are clashing openly with Russian ethnics (whose numbers have miraculously and exponentially increased there over the past months - much in the way they had increased in Ossetia before the "Georgian" crisis turned into a war), we get to see exactly how the destabilization policy is working that Russia is also trying in Moldova and Georgia (that both have signed the special partnership pacts that actually ignited the Ukraine crisis).

I'm Russian and I'm not sure what you mean there. There was no increase of "Russian ethnics" in Ossetia. Most people there have always been Ossetian and they genuinely hate the Georgians. Not Putin's propaganda hate, for real. Ossetians traditionally remember grievances for a very long time. There were many with Russian passports but they are not ethnic Russians.

You're absolutely right, the number of Russian ethnics has not increased in Georgia, Ossetia, Abkhazia. The number of people with Russian citizenship, however, has increased pretty dramatically: in 1990 there were 60% Ossetians (living back then in an autonomous territory), 20% Georgians, 10% Armenians and 5% Russians living in South Ossetia. As of 2009 about 85% of the population of South Ossetia have Russian citizenship (as a successor state to the USSR, Russia extended citizenship to most USSR citizens). Additionally, 71% of all Ossetians living in Russia (just across the border to North Ossetia) have per family reunion-law acquired resident statuts in South Ossetia. And Russia is arguing that it is entitled to "protect" Russian citizens on demand wherever they may be, whenever they may "feel" badly about how things are going in their chosen place of residency.


Quote

Crimea is 58% Russian and only about 12% Tatar (rest being Ukrainian). And about 70% use mainly the Russian language in their everyday life.This has always been the case.

I'm neither doubting nor disputing this. But that doesn't change the fact that we have there a region (Crimea) of a sovereign state (Ukraine) where a fairly large minority is not Russian and - in agreement with the vast majority of the rest of said state (because meanwhile even Eastern and Southern Ukrainian provinces like Donetsk have declared that they support the new government) - wish ro remain Ukrainian and engage on a path that differs significantly from the Kremlin's wishes.

I am Romanian-born. We've seen Russia play this game with Moldova since the Napoleonian wars. It's really no surprise...



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