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Options for the U.S. and Europe's response to Russia's aggress

Ukraine Russia Aggression in Crimea 2014 Europe

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#61 Nonny

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 08:21 AM

View PostRaijin, on 18 March 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Why they never list the assets they froze? I want to know what our officials actually have. Rogozin whose assets have been frozen already said he does actually have any.
Yeah, when you WANT our help....... ;)
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

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#62 Raijin

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:02 AM

View PostNonny, on 19 March 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Yeah, when you WANT our help....... ;)

Are you someone's teenage child?

#63 Nonny

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:42 AM

View PostRaijin, on 19 March 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

View PostNonny, on 19 March 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Yeah, when you WANT our help....... ;)

Are you someone's teenage child?
:howling:  I was.  :D
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#64 ilexx

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:29 PM

View PostRaijin, on 18 March 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Here are some real facts that Putin's propaganda uses explained to you by people who aren't Russian (www.foreignpolicy.com):

Quote

Ukraine is home to Svoboda, arguably Europe's most influential far-right movement today. (In the photo above, Svoboda activists seize a Ministry of Agriculture building during Kiev's Euromaidan protests in January.) Party leader Oleh Tyahnybok is on record complaining that his country is controlled by a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia," while his deputy derided the Ukrainian-born film star Mila Kunis as a "dirty Jewess." In Svoboda's eyes, gays are perverts and black people unfit to represent the nation at Eurovision, lest viewers come away thinking Ukraine is somewhere besides Uganda.
Svoboda began life in the mid-90s as the Social-National Party (a name deliberately redolent of the National Socialist Party, better known as Nazis), with its logo the fascist Wolfsangel. In 2004, the party gave itself an unobjectionable new name (Svoboda means "Freedom") and canned the Nazi imagery, and in the subsequent decade has seen its star swiftly rise.
Today, Svoboda holds a larger chunk of its nation's ministries (nearly a quarter, including the prized defense portfolio) than any other far-right party on the continent. Ukraine's deputy prime minister represents Svoboda (the smaller, even more extreme "Right Sector" coalition fills the deputy National Security Council chair), as does the prosecutor general and the deputy chair of parliament -- where the party is the fourth-largest. And Svoboda's fresh faces are scarcely different from the old: one of its freshmen members of parliament is the founder of the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" and has hailed the Holocaust as a "bright period" in human history.
http://www.foreignpo...nian_government

This has been hampering Ukraine greatly from the start and breeding resentment in the east and among ordinary Russians in and of itself without any need for Putin to make things up. Still think they have nothing to be upset about in the east?

You're right about Svoboda and the rather high far-right percentage of the Ukrainian electorate, but that's not at all an isolated symptom of Ukrainian society. It is just as present in Russia. The fact that there it is not disturbing anyone, but simply passes as a legitimate sentiment of Russians by and large, is just due to it being called differently. There are some in fact who thing that what happens in Crimea and Russian stance on Ukraine is actually the result of far-right Russian nationalism: http://www.newrepubl...-actions-crimea

Quote

It is deeply strange for an openly right-wing authoritarian regime, such as that of Vladimir Putin, to treat the presence of right-wing politicians in a neighboring democracy as the reason for a military invasion. Putin's own social policy is, if anything, to the right of the Ukrainians whom he criticizes. The Russian attempt to control Ukraine is based upon Eurasian ideology, which explicitly rejects liberal democracy. The founder of the Eurasian movement is an actual fascist, Alexander Dugin, who calls for a revolution of values from Portugal to Siberia. The man responsible for Ukraine policy, Sergei Glayzev, used to run a far-right nationalist party that was banned for its racist electoral campaign. Putin has placed himself at the head of a worldwide campaign against homosexuality. This is politically useful, since opposition to Russia is now blamed on an international gay lobby which cannot by its nature understand the inherent spirituality of traditional Russian civilization.The Russian invasion and occupation of Crimea was carried out in a spirit that recalled to many, including some Russian observers, that of the late 1930s. The argument used was that the Russian state had the right to protect fellow Russians. Making the case in this way places ethnicity, as imagined and proposed by Moscow, more important that international borders and international law. Indeed, Russian authorities have been quite explicit that this is their doctrine: Ukraine is no longer a state because they say so, and all that matters in the world of international relations is ethnicity and history as seen from Moscow. The only “right” that individuals have in this logic is to be defined as members of a Volk by the Kremlin, and then to be invaded or not as appropriate. That Russians in Ukraine in fact enjoy far broader freedoms than Russians in Russia is irrelevant, since in this scheme people are not individuals but simply numerical arguments for territorial expansion. This sort of dismissal of states and laws in favor of ethnicity and invasion is not evidence that today’s Russia opposes fascism.

Crimea under Ukrainian rule has been an autonomous province inhabited, alongside Russians and Ukrainians, by the Crimean Tatar minority. The Crimean Tatars were deported by the Soviet NKVD as a totality, every man, woman, and child, in May 1944. Those who live in Crimea are surviving deportees and their children and grandchildren, people who made their way back from murderous exile in Soviet Uzbekistan and reestablished themselves in what became independent Ukraine. Their return to their homeland was one of the precious cases of multicultural integration in post-Soviet Europe. As a result, the Crimean Tatars were quite pro-Ukrainian, in the sense of preferring Ukrainian law to any other alternative. The Russian invasion of their homeland immediately introduced a new sense of threat, recalling for many Tatars the experience of ethnic cleansing. Suddenly their houses were marked. The mutilated body of a Crimean Tatar man was discovered a few days ago. Crimean Tatar women and children were already being sent to the Ukrainian mainland before the “referendum.” What will follow now will likely be worse.

What happened on Sunday in Crimea was an electoral farce. Referenda cannot be held under military occupation. Referenda cannot have two options that have essentially the same meaning. Referenda cannot be held when all of the propaganda is generated by the state. Referenda cannot be held when the local television stations are closed and journalists are beaten and intimidated. Even in these conditions, the claim that 75 percent of the population took part and more than 96 percent voted for annexation to Russia is untenable. We know from years of surveys that a majority of Crimeans did not favor incorporation by Russia. One large survey showed 33 percent support for this idea in 2011, down to 23 percent in 2013. The Crimean Tatars boycotted the "referendum," as did many Ukrainians, since it was declared illegal and unconstitutional by the Ukrainian government. The recorded electoral frequency in the city of Sevastopol was 123 percent.

Compared to this, Svoboda's child's play really...

#65 Spectacles

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 01:02 PM

Fascinating...in a really disturbing way. That's all I have time to say at the moment, that and thank you to both ilexx and Raijin for the crash course I'm getting in Russian-Ukrainian sociopolitics.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#66 offworlder

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 01:40 PM

so wait- Putin who decries far right ultranationalist fascisti is a far right fascist? not a pinko red? or maybe all the pinko reds are really not socialists but really authoritarian nationalist right fascisti? ;) I was just reading about Stalin and it is confusing all these words flung by propaganda by those just using the ideas but really tyrants, or tyrant wannabes?
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#67 Spectacles

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:57 AM

Is Estonia next? Is that even possible?  http://www.reuters.c...EA2I1J620140319
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#68 Nonny

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 07:02 AM

View PostSpectacles, on 20 March 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Is Estonia next? Is that even possible?  http://www.reuters.c...EA2I1J620140319
This would be why Putin put on those hissy fits when Estonia and other Baltic states joined NATO and the EU.  While still vulnerable, they have significantly more resources to fend off further Russification.



Quote

Russia signaled concern on Wednesday at Estonia's treatment of its large ethnic Russian minority, comparing language policy in the Baltic state with what it said was a call in Ukraine to prevent the use of Russian.
Russia has defended its annexation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula by arguing it has the right to protect Russian-speakers outside its borders....

APOTS.  Meanwhile:

Quote

The envoy asked what measures could be taken to protect Ukrainian, Crimean Tatar and other minority groups in Crimea "whose rights are being violated under the Russian occupation."
Responding, the Russian delegate said there were no violations of minority rights in Crimea and minorities were not being persecuted. The new Russian-backed government there had guaranteed protection of the Tatars.
Watch out for flying pigs.   :sarcasm:
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#69 Nonny

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 07:09 AM

Why Ukraine's Situation Makes Russia's Other Neighbors Nervous


http://www.npr.org/b...ighbors-nervous

Quote

The Baltic States
Latvia and Estonia have significant ethnic Russian populations. About 27 percent of Latvia's 2 million people are Russian, as are about a quarter of Estonia's 1.3 million. According to The Telegraph, the Russians in Latvia migrated there during Soviet rule when they were able to occupy the top rungs of civil and political society.
"But ever since communism's collapse, the boot has been firmly on the other foot. Latvian, not Russian, is the official language, and the country is now one of NATO's newest — and keenest — members, along with fellow Baltic states Lithuania and Estonia," the newspaper writes.
According to Reuters, Latvia and Estonia in particular "are alarmed by [Putin's] justification for Russian actions in and around Ukraine as protection for Russian speakers there.
"While all three Baltic republics have joined NATO — and Lithuania next year should be the last of the three to adopt the euro — these small countries are largely dependent on energy from Russia and have strong trade ties," Reuters writes.
"Last weekend, as pro-Russian forces were surrounding Crimea, Moscow's ambassador to [Latvia] caused further unease by saying that the Kremlin was planning to offer passports and pensions to ethnic Russians in Latvia to 'save them from poverty,' " The Telegraph says.
The Soviets covered all their bets, and this is the payoff.

Edited by Nonny, 20 March 2014 - 07:10 AM.

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#70 Nonny

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 07:14 AM

Meanwhile in Crimea:
For Crimea, Split From Ukraine Would Be Complicated And Costly

http://www.npr.org/2...ated-and-costly

Quote

Crimea is a poor region, heavily subsidized by Kiev, and gets all its gas, water and food from Ukraine. Russia doesn't even have a land link with the Crimean peninsula and absorbing it will affect banks, schools, tourism and pensions for residents.

Download available, transcript will be added later.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#71 Spectacles

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 07:56 AM

This is all so seriously disturbing.

http://www.nytimes.c...putin.html?_r=0
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#72 ilexx

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 08:35 AM

View PostSpectacles, on 20 March 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Is Estonia next? Is that even possible?  http://www.reuters.c...EA2I1J620140319

I coudn't imagine him going directly for a NATO-member, but it may well be.

Originally, I thought that in the most likely scenario he'll go first for Transnistria, where apparently "they" (whoever they are) are already asking for Russian annexation:

http://www.euractiv....ova-news-534219

However on Tuesday, he declared that Russia doesn't want to separate or annex Ukraine, and thus there still isn't a common border with Moldova, That would leave only Estonia sharing a border with Russia, so... who knows?

It is a really disgusting game of chess.

#73 BklnScott

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 08:43 AM

I think the measures this poor guy is advocating are being kept in reserve as a hedge against further "little wars."

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#74 Spectacles

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 10:55 AM

U.S. adds several more to the sanctions list, including some oligarchs.

http://www.treasury....0140320_33.aspx
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#75 Nonny

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 12:49 PM

View Postilexx, on 20 March 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

View PostSpectacles, on 20 March 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Is Estonia next? Is that even possible?  http://www.reuters.c...EA2I1J620140319

I coudn't imagine him going directly for a NATO-member, but it may well be.

Originally, I thought that in the most likely scenario he'll go first for Transnistria, where apparently "they" (whoever they are) are already asking for Russian annexation:

http://www.euractiv....ova-news-534219

However on Tuesday, he declared that Russia doesn't want to separate or annex Ukraine, and thus there still isn't a common border with Moldova, That would leave only Estonia sharing a border with Russia, so... who knows?

It is a really disgusting game of chess.
The Crimea grab might have been the first move in a plan to annex Moldova without having to worry about the no shared borders.  Maybe he's hoping Ukraine will take the bait so he can "justify" an invasion.  Geez, I hope I'm wrong!   :unsure:

I'm wondering who "they" are too.   :(

edited to add clarification

Edited by Nonny, 20 March 2014 - 12:52 PM.

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#76 Nonny

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 12:58 PM

View PostSpectacles, on 20 March 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

This is all so seriously disturbing.

http://www.nytimes.c...putin.html?_r=0
Holy crap!  I was aware of the dissent in Moscow, but had little idea of what to make of it.  This is one seriously courageous man.  Now I'm not so sure I'm way out there on my previous post, and I'm sick to my stomach about it.   :(
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#77 offworlder

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    pls don't kick offworlders, we can find a place too

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:26 PM

here is the update on the recent base attack,navy base, and I guess they just did not
have security weapons coz we just keep hearing that these mercs who are Spetz trained
assault hard and fast, ski mask hats, weapons, take everything with hardly any fight,
and Kiev is not reinforcing, no rescue, and now declared personnel will be evac'd out
north.

http://www.latimes.c...y#axzz2wR48DNMS

>' “As soon as Vitko was gone, the storm continued as the Cossacks and militiamen broke down the door and threw at least one stun grenade inside,” he said.

The defenders were overwhelmed without a shot fired, Klimov said.

“When the entire base was in the hands of the attackers, Russian gunmen in unmarked uniforms arrived on the scene in great numbers and took positions everywhere inside the base,” Klimov said. “As Ukrainian officers, looking demoralized, started leaving the base one captain … stopped for a minute, looking around the base as if saying goodbye.” He carried framed photographs of naval vessels he had served on.

A similar scene unfolded miles away at Donuzlav Lake, where armed pro-Russian militia broke down the gate of a Ukrainian naval base with a tractor, according to Mazepa, the Ukrainian Defense Ministry spokesman.

“The unit’s armed officers and sailors barricaded themselves inside the command building of the base, threatened to open fire on the attackers and those retreated,” Mazepa said over the phone.

On Tuesday night one Ukrainian officer was killed and at least two were injured as Russian gunmen reportedly opened fire at a Ukrainian army cartographic unit in the center of Simferopol.

Russia is trying to rid the peninsula of Ukrainian servicemen as quickly as possible to gain full control over Crimea, Ukrainian defense expert Dmitry Tymchuk said.

“Our army and navy units in Crimea are the only element of Ukraine's presence in this region the Kremlin has annexed by force,” Tymchuk, the head of the Kiev-based Center for Military and Political research, said in a phone interview. The Ukrainian troops “are in a very desperate situation now as the political and military leadership of Ukraine still refrains from issuing concrete instructions for their conduct in these dire circumstances.”

Ukraine had managed to save at least half of its navy fleet, including its flag ship Hetman Sahaidachny, which relocated to the ports of Odessa and Mariupol. The seven vessels trapped at Donuzlav Lake may soon fall into Russian hands as the waterway’s access to the Black Sea has been blockaded by the Black Sea Fleet. The Russians sank at least three old vessels there early this month to prevent the Ukrainian ships from leaving, Mazepa said.

Rear Adm. Sergei Gayduk, commander of the Ukrainian navy, was temporarily detained by Russian investigators in Sevastopol on suspicion that he ordered his forces “to open fire against peaceful civilians,” Russian ITAR-TASS new agency reported.
'<

"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#78 offworlder

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    pls don't kick offworlders, we can find a place too

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:42 PM

and the Soviet propaganda (people permanently in those jobs so they have the time, hell
it's even in their bonus reviews) rolls on, Estonia,

http://www.reuters.c...EA2I1J620140319

' Estonia's ... comparing language policy in the Baltic state with what it said was a call in Ukraine to prevent the use of Russian.

Russia has defended its annexation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula by arguing it has the right to protect Russian-speakers outside its borders, so the reference to linguistic tensions in another former Soviet republic comes at a highly sensitive moment.

Russia fully supported the protection of the rights of linguistic minorities, a Moscow diplomat told the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva, according to a summary of the session issued by the U.N.'s information department.
'
' But amid the growing Crimea crisis, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - which like Ukraine were all parts of the old Soviet Union - have expressed growing apprehension over Moscow's intentions.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden is currently in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius as part of a trip to reassure the three countries, all European Union and NATO members, of Washington's support.
'
:harper:

"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#79 tennyson

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:36 PM

If a NATO member state is invaded or attacked and that is allowed to stand then the North Atlantic treaty means nothing anymore.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#80 Spectacles

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 07:53 PM

^Yep.

And more and more it looks like we should have gone ahead and lobbed some missiles at Syria's military last fall without fretting over it. Speaking of, I bet that situation is going swimmingly now that Syria's big brother, Putin, engaged the West in a shoving match.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman



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