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Agents OF SHIELD: Turn, Turn, Turn

Agents Of SHIELD Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

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#1 DWF

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:35 PM

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Coulson and his team find themselves without anyone to trust.

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#2 DWF

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:42 PM

So Ward's a Hydra agent and May was working for Fury, this one had alot of action and double crosses but not much else. And like Garrett I have to wonder jsut how many agents really believe Hydra's line.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#3 BklnScott

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:12 PM

Twisty!

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#4 Christopher

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:37 PM

Well, this was a game-changer, all right. And it did a pretty good job keeping us guessing, though I'm not particularly surprised about who the traitors turned out to be. (I am surprised they killed off Hand, though.) I guess the speculations I've heard about Triplett being set up as Ward's replacement may have been right.

Beware Winter Soldier spoilers ahead:

It sounds like the Hub may become the team's home base now, so it's not just the Bus anymore. Which would make sense; they went to the trouble to build all those sets, so it'd be good to have a reason to keep using them. I guess the story now will be about weeding out the remaining HYDRA factions that were said to retain control of various SHIELD facilities. So the shutdown of SHIELD isn't as simple as it looked in the movie. And presumably Garrett and Ward will be the main antagonists.

I'm puzzled by the timing in this episode. It looked like it all took place on the same day as the film's climax, as the launch of Operation Insight and the three Helicarriers. After all, in the film, HYDRA didn't reveal itself openly within SHIELD until Cap outed them on the PA. Fury's apparent death came at least a couple of days earlier in the story. But wasn't May talking to Fury at the end of last week's episode, just minutes in story time before this one started? I'd really like to see a detailed chronological breakdown of how the past couple of episodes and the movie fit together, like a smaller-scale version of the one I've seen for the Phase One films.

It would also be interesting to go back and watch all the episodes again, knowing what we know now. Although it may still be a few weeks before we learn the whole story behind everything.

Edited by Christopher, 08 April 2014 - 09:39 PM.

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#5 DWF

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:56 PM

From the promo for next week's it doesn't like the Hub will be their base.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#6 Cardie

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:01 PM

I had a weird feeling that Ward may be deep, deep undercover to infiltrate Hydra, that Hand was willing to sacrifice her life o position him thus. But he's probably just going to be the charismatic (?) bad guy.
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#7 NeuralClone

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:33 AM

It's a good thing Coulson is such a good judge of character! :sarcasm:
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#8 Raijin

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:16 AM

Coulson said to Ward, "That's how he beat us, by being a friend." I think that's what Ward is doing.

#9 G-man

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:59 AM

View PostNeuralClone, on 09 April 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

It's a good thing Coulson is such a good judge of character! :sarcasm:

Well, remember, it's easy to fool someone who trusts you.  And up until Coulson started digging into his own recovery, he had no reason not to trust SHIELD, its cause, its methods, and its personnel.

As for Ward ... given the lo-o-ong focus on his face as Garrett's rambling on in the closing scene, I'd guess that Cardie has called it, and that he's infiltrating HYDRA.

OTOH, It'd be nice if Ward did become a bad guy and his position filled by Triplett.  This would help to establish some sense of peril for the main cast that the show, up until this point, had been lacking.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#10 G-man

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:06 AM

View PostChristopher, on 08 April 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm puzzled by the timing in this episode. It looked like it all took place on the same day as the film's climax, as the launch of Operation Insight and the three Helicarriers. After all, in the film, HYDRA didn't reveal itself openly within SHIELD until Cap outed them on the PA. Fury's apparent death came at least a couple of days earlier in the story. But wasn't May talking to Fury at the end of last week's episode, just minutes in story time before this one started? I'd really like to see a detailed chronological breakdown of how the past couple of episodes and the movie fit together, like a smaller-scale version of the one I've seen for the Phase One films.


I thought May was trying to reach Fury, but had been thwarted by Fitz's shenanigans.  I think it was the episode prior that you're thinking of, where the stinger was her calling Fury and saying "He knows," after eavesdropping on his conversation with Skye.

And my impression was that the code/algorithm had been activated when Cap and Black Widow activated the computer in that New Jersey Bunker.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#11 BklnScott

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:26 AM

I think it's probably significant that Ward doesn't say, "Hail Hydra" at the end. He seemed to execute those three people - Hand included - but "seemed" might be the operative word there.

That said, I'd be thrilled if they made him evil. He's too pretty to be good… and equally thrilled if they really did kill off a major character like Hand. That would qualify as genuinely surprising.  

Either way, by far the best episode they've done.

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#12 Christopher

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:32 AM

View PostCardie, on 08 April 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

I had a weird feeling that Ward may be deep, deep undercover to infiltrate Hydra, that Hand was willing to sacrifice her life o position him thus.

Her life and those of both her guards? I doubt that very much.

Ward is definitely deep in HYDRA and has been all along. Consider the evidence. He's Garrett's protege (although, granted, so is Triplett). He killed the fake Clairvoyant, an action that a lot of people found out of character or hard to explain, but that makes perfect sense if he was acting under orders from Garrett to make it look like the Clairvoyant had been found and killed. He's been established as someone with a dark, troubled past and heightened aggression -- which seemed at the time like it was just a "bad boy" characterization but in retrospect feels like a clue to his true nature.

And really, from a dramatic standpoint, it's hard to see how a series protagonist could come back from cold-bloodedly murdering an innocent man. It wasn't an accident, it was a calculated choice to kill. No matter how it's rationalized, that's a pretty extreme line to cross and one you can't come back from. So it would pretty much ruin him as a series-lead protagonist. But if it he was really a villain all along, then the act merely establishes his evil credentials.

Also, look at it metatextually. People have been saying all along that they found Ward a boring or unlikeable character, a weak link in the ensemble (though not the only one, granted). That makes more sense if the plan all along was to have him be a temporary member of the ensemble. Heck, I'd much rather have Triplett take his place. That actor is a lot more interesting.

And one more thing: Now that HYDRA is the Big Bad, it needs a face, a specific person that the show can focus on as the team's primary enemy. Maybe that could be Garrett, sure; but he's a recurring guest star, and he was only in a few episodes before this. Ward is someone we know a lot better, plus he's already a series regular. Thus it makes sense to make him the face of the enemy.

Anyway, this interview with Brett Dalton seems to confirm that Ward was always meant to become a bad guy. Of course one could argue that it's just misdirection from Marvel, but I don't think it is. It makes sense that they always meant him to be a villain. The showrunners have been aware from the start of what was going to happen in TWS, they've plotted the show accordingly, and that movie revealed that one recurring character who'd been established as a good guy in earlier films (and the show) was really one of the villains all along. It makes sense that the show's producers would've deliberately seeded a genuine HYDRA agent within the team, set him up with the intention of revealing his true villainy when the movie came out.

Edited by Christopher, 09 April 2014 - 08:39 AM.

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"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


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#13 G-man

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:00 PM

^^^ Hmmm ... I'm guessing that from the long focus on his face while Garrett was rambling, that there might be some mixed feelings, might I even say: conflicted emotions.

Yes, he is Garrett's man, and is probably with HYDRA all the way, but I think it would add some depth to have a conflicted antagonist as opposed to a simply out-and-out baddie opposing the team.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#14 BklnScott

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:49 PM

Maybe he isn't feigning his interest in Skye.

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#15 Christopher

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:58 PM

I don't doubt he's conflicted; as Dalton said in the interview, you can't spend that much time with a group of people without developing some attachments. But I also don't doubt that he's genuinely a HYDRA plant, rather than a good guy just pretending to be with HYDRA. It seemed clear to me that Garrett expected Ward to free him. He wasn't surprised when Ward shot Hand and the guards. So they were working together before this.

What I find unexpected is how much resistance I'm seeing to the idea that Ward was really a traitor all along. I mean, all this time I've heard little positive being said about the character; generally the reactions I hear range from neutrality to actively wishing he'd be written out of the show. And yet now I'm seeing so much unexpected loyalty to the character, people refusing to believe that he isn't still a good guy. I mean, I'd think more people would be happy to discover he was really a bad guy, because it instantly makes him much more interesting.

Edited by Christopher, 09 April 2014 - 01:59 PM.

"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


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#16 NeuralClone

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:27 PM

Personally I would have preferred to have Ward get shot so we wouldn't have to worry about him becoming a recurring villain, a deep undercover agent, or something else. He'd just be out of the equation entirely. But since that isn't likely to happen...
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#17 G-man

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:35 PM

View PostChristopher, on 09 April 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

I don't doubt he's conflicted; as Dalton said in the interview, you can't spend that much time with a group of people without developing some attachments. But I also don't doubt that he's genuinely a HYDRA plant, rather than a good guy just pretending to be with HYDRA. It seemed clear to me that Garrett expected Ward to free him. He wasn't surprised when Ward shot Hand and the guards. So they were working together before this.

What I find unexpected is how much resistance I'm seeing to the idea that Ward was really a traitor all along. I mean, all this time I've heard little positive being said about the character; generally the reactions I hear range from neutrality to actively wishing he'd be written out of the show. And yet now I'm seeing so much unexpected loyalty to the character, people refusing to believe that he isn't still a good guy. I mean, I'd think more people would be happy to discover he was really a bad guy, because it instantly makes him much more interesting.

What resistance?  Any number of us who were postulating that Ward's keeping the faith, also stated that his actually being a bad guy would be desirable.  We're just trying to work out the meaning of that last scene ... since it wasn't your stereotypical gloating of the villain over how he/they had fooled the good guys.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#18 Christopher

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 04:11 PM

^I'm talking about all the sites I've visited, not just this one.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


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#19 BklnScott

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 04:36 PM

I think some people are just a little bit astounded at the idea that this show had something this lively up its sleeve all along. I'd just like to see them commit to it before I give them kudos ... The reset button trope became a trope for a reason.

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#20 NeuralClone

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 04:54 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 09 April 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I think some people are just a little bit astounded at the idea that this show had something this lively up its sleeve all along. I'd just like to see them commit to it before I give them kudos ... The reset button trope became a trope for a reason.
If they commit to it I'll certainly be more impressed with the show than I have been. I'm still not convinced they won't find a convenient way to reset everything, however. If this was airing on HBO or AMC, I'd be more inclined to think this is a permanent change. But this is ABC. I'd like to be wrong, though.
"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"



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