Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Agents OF SHIELD: Turn, Turn, Turn

Agents Of SHIELD Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

  • Please log in to reply
81 replies to this topic

#61 NeuralClone

NeuralClone
  • Islander
  • 23,092 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:04 PM

View PostChristopher, on 10 April 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Well, it's not like they wanted to make it easy to figure out.
I wasn't expecting them to just come out and tell viewers directly. I just think their definition of foreshadowing and my definition of foreshadowing differ. A lot.
"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#62 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,095 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:58 PM

View PostG-man, on 11 April 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Now the question is, will Ward remain the mole on Coulson's team, or has he fled with Garrett?  If he remains, that will allow him to remain with the main cast on the show, even after his turn.  OTOH, if he's scarpered, that would very much tip HYDRA's hand to Coulson that there was a turn-coat on his team, which would certainly contribute to Coulson's blossoming trust issues.

I have to admit, I hadn't even realized that Ward's betrayal is only known to the audience at this point, not to the rest of the team. I was just sort of assuming he'd be on the other team now and Triplett would fill his place on the Bus. But as things stand, it's entirely possible that he could concoct some story about how Garrett got free and killed Hand, but Ward barely managed to escape with his life. I hadn't even considered that, but it could happen.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#63 NeuralClone

NeuralClone
  • Islander
  • 23,092 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 01:04 PM

If they want to keep Brett Dalton as a main cast member while having his character do evil stuff behind the scenes that only the audience knows about, it would make sense to actually keep him there on the Bus, both for story reasons and for practical reasons when filming. If he immediately runs off on his own and he remains a main cast member, very few of his scenes would be with the main cast. That seems like it would work against the structure of the show as it currently stands. I suppose they could be shaking things up far more than we realize but somehow I think they'll still be flying around on the Bus. Just the specifics of the situation will be different.

Besides, now that we know he's a HYDRA plant but the team doesn't, they could potentially really have some fun with the whole double agent aspect of his character. It seems like it would be a huge waste not to get some mileage out of that before he directly betrays the team with them knowing about it. Technically that's already been happening but it'd be more interesting if we actually saw it, as well as his reactions.

Edited by NeuralClone, 11 April 2014 - 01:07 PM.

"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#64 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,225 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:14 PM

^ Yes, I would like that scenario to play out, it has more potential IMO. Have him back with the team and blame Hand's and team's death on his former SO.

I had said before that Ward being a bad guy doesn't make him all that interesting. But it likely depends on their definition of bad guy. When I hear that I figure they mean evil characters. They plot intricate schemes while cause interesting story-lines/obstacles for the good guys. But if that is their only motivation, opposing good guys for power to allow themselves to be sociopaths (or in following black/white ideological beliefs that they never question), I find such characters generally boring in and of themselves.  

There are a couple more options to explain/define Ward than I had considered before, after reading this thread. I think the following should cover them all though :)

- Loyal Hydra agent / true believer in Hydra ideology

- Duped Hydra agent - there is discrepancy between the agent's perception of the methods/ideology of Hydra versus Hydra's actual ones. Either due to misconception or misunderstanding on the part of the agent and/or duplicity on the part of Hydra. May or may not include brainwashing.

- Turncoat - shifting allegiance for pragmatic reasons - based on perception that Hydra will gain/has gained the upper hand

- Sociopath - enjoys power and hurting/manipulating people and sees more power and leeway for such inside Hydra

- 'Lost boy' - hardened by experience, never felt that he was respected, given proper consideration or belonged, joined Hydra to fill some of those holes. He may or may not have got those with Coulson's team, he may or may not recognize it, and even if yes to those, it may or may not make a difference in the long term.

- Double or Triple agent working for S.H.I.E.L.D. - *ORDERED* - Seems unlikely since SHIELD was caught so off guard and the evidence seems to lean towards Ward working for Hydra for some time. The only way it seems slightly plausible is if someone converted him from a double agent for Hydra to a Triple agent for S.H.I.E.L.D. fairly recently and that seems ridiculously far-fetched given what we have been shown.

- Double or Triple agent work for S.H.I.E.L.D. - *SELF DIRECTED* - Requires some definite cojones on Ward's part.
For that to actual be believable I think they'd need to tell/show us him going down that path. I can't imagine that people were casually introduced/accepted into HYRDA, and unless his SO has a unforeseen soft spot for him I can't imagine that he stumbled across it and didn't die. In either case likely he had to prove himself.
So he was likely recruited by Hyrda, and likely due to something they thought they saw in him. I suppose an argument could be made that when he was recruited that he didn't tell because
a) he didn't think he would be believed (if he was say, new, in training and/or had some 'lost-boy' syndrome) and/or
b) saw how well infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D was so believed it was too risky to confide in someone and better to work from within
I would think if this is the case that it would be fairly evident in the near future. We know Ward has already likely passed on some information, but if he is a triple agent what has he held back? What about download he got?


Combinations of the above are certainly possible, and Ward could well change his decision/direction in the future (some of the above makes that more easy than others). But there is something I hate about each of those options :D :p some more deeply than others ;)

Edited by sierraleone, 11 April 2014 - 06:02 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#65 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,095 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:11 PM

In the past two weeks, Ward has killed four people in cold blood -- the first of whom was a totally helpless quadriplegic and innocent dupe. That's not really the sort of thing that a character can do and still be perceived as a good guy. So I have a very, very hard time buying the "triple agent" idea. Okay, granted, sometimes people undercover in criminal organizations have to do nasty things to maintain their cover, but in fiction, you don't want to push a protagonist too far over that line, and I'd say this is too far for Ward.

I think the best route would be if he were sincerely loyal to HYDRA but had complex personal or philosophical reasons for that allegiance. It would be good to give HYDRA a face and a voice, someone who can personify them on an ongoing basis and express their point of view, and since Brett Dalton is already a series regular, he's a good candidate for that.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#66 NeuralClone

NeuralClone
  • Islander
  • 23,092 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:00 PM

View PostChristopher, on 11 April 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

In the past two weeks, Ward has killed four people in cold blood -- the first of whom was a totally helpless quadriplegic and innocent dupe. That's not really the sort of thing that a character can do and still be perceived as a good guy. So I have a very, very hard time buying the "triple agent" idea. Okay, granted, sometimes people undercover in criminal organizations have to do nasty things to maintain their cover, but in fiction, you don't want to push a protagonist too far over that line, and I'd say this is too far for Ward.
I'd say it depends on the type of fiction. For a show based on an established comic book universe such as Marvel's, I'd say that would absolutely be too far to have him kill those people and then actually be a triple agent. There are definitely types of stories where that sort of thing could. But I agree it wouldn't work with the MCU.

And not only that, the simplest explanation is that he's an actual HYDRA agent. All of the evidence at this point suggests that. If the events of The Winter Soldier weren't in play, then I'd say maybe Coulson and Fury figured out a way to infiltrate HYDRA. But everything in the movie contradicts that theory on-screen at multiple points. The entire plot of the movie revolves around HYDRA infiltrating SHIELD for the past 70 years and no one, including Nick Fury, realizing it until their plan was in motion. The secret of the infiltration was that good. The only way for Ward to be a triple agent and have it fit into that would be if he decided to infiltrate HYDRA all on his own, and that just doesn't seem to fit with what we were shown.

Quote

I think the best route would be if he were sincerely loyal to HYDRA but had complex personal or philosophical reasons for that allegiance. It would be good to give HYDRA a face and a voice, someone who can personify them on an ongoing basis and express their point of view, and since Brett Dalton is already a series regular, he's a good candidate for that.
I agree. I think that's the most logical direction for them to head in with the character and the show. My only real concern is if they'll actually commit to that sort of thing for the long term or if it'll just be until the end of the season. I'm kind of thinking they'll end up resetting things or kill him off in the season finale. I really, really want to be proven wrong though.
"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#67 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,043 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:10 PM

Or there is another explanation.  He became a HYDRA agent just now and not recruited long ago, because he feels SHIELD just doesn't do enough to protect their own teams.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 11 April 2014 - 07:10 PM.


#68 NeuralClone

NeuralClone
  • Islander
  • 23,092 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:28 PM

I suppose that might be possible. HYDRA tends to like getting to people fairly early, though. At least that seems to be the case. Not much is really known about the modern HYDRA in the MCU.

If he just turned recently, I can't imagine what he would have had to do to prove himself loyal to them. HYDRA must have a pretty ridiculous vetting process that makes the NSA and CIA vetting process seem like child's play. You don't embed yourself in a major organization like SHIELD and stay hidden for 70 years by allowing just anyone in on it! Perhaps they use a variant of Dr. Arnim Zola's algorithm from The Winter Soldier to pinpoint who would make good HYDRA agents. Actually, that would make a lot of sense. MCU sense anyway.

Edited by NeuralClone, 11 April 2014 - 07:30 PM.

"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#69 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,095 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:56 PM

He wasn't turned recently. As Maurissa Tancharoen pointed out, it was after Coulson told Ward about the cellist in episode 10 that Raina knew about her in episode 11.

Plus of course the whole business with the so-called "Clairvoyant" was that he knew the team's movements ahead of time. Sure, having access to internal SHIELD communications could allow that, but so could having a mole on the team from the very beginning.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#70 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,225 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:08 PM

I wonder how compartmentalized Hydra was. Was a significant reason S.H.I.E.L.D. was compartmentalized was because of they Hydra infiltration trying to hide their tracks? Did Ward know, with certainty (as opposed to suspicions) that Coulson's team was fighting Hydra numerous times this the season? I am not trying to argue the triple agent theory, or even the duped agent theory. He could believe their intentions/ideology and not know absolutely everything mission they carried out. Most of the people who worked for the clairvoyant didn't know who the clairvoyant was. I can't imagine that Hydra would have been less paranoid than what remains of S.H.I.E.L.D. will soon be. It would seem also likely that Ward has killed some Hydra agents/workers, unknowingly or otherwise, at certain points this season.

I suppose this vindicate Skye's distrust of S.H.I.E.L.D. in the beginning ;)

Does this possibly mean that Skye's 084ness/early history has to do with Hydra/Hydra agents and not S.H.I.E.L.D.? If so, it is possible they know more about her than S.H.I.E.L.D. does or ever did.

Edited by sierraleone, 11 April 2014 - 08:08 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#71 G-man

G-man

    Is there a problem?

  • Moderator
  • 8,686 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:35 PM

SHIELD was compartmentalized, because that's how intelligence agencies generally work.  It's called operational security, where the fewer who know, the less likely there would be a leak, and the more secure the operation is.  HYDRA simply took advantage of that process to propogate itself like a virus within the SHIELD organization.

With Ward, I'd argue that he always was a HYDRA Agent since Garrett had been his SO -- but at this stage he is starting to have doubts.

As for tip offs/foreshadowing:

Off the top of my head, we had the whole mid-season finale ... where the man who would be Deathlok was recovered by "the enemy".  At the time, I was wondering what kind of operation did SHIELD run that they wouldn't secure the scene ... even if everything went balls up.  It turns out SHIELD did.

Then there was TRACKS, for some reason the opposition just seemed to be too keyed into what our team was doing that they could effectively neutralize the team in detail, someone had to have fed them the specific team's plan so they could have people waiting for them ... leading to the conclusion where Skye was shot.

This fed directly into that contrived mess of TAHITI.  I was wondering why Garrett could be so easily convinced to accompany our team to that top secret installation.  Now we know.

I'd also argue that the episode where Hand summoned the presumably autonomous team in to test them, against the backdrop of sending Ward and Fitz in to disable a device, all as part of a military strike within Russian (Ukranian? Georgian?) military base ... that really smacked more of HYDRA than SHIELD.  As I argued at the time, Hand's test was wholly contingent on the rest of the team actually disobeying orders to pass.  

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#72 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,225 posts

Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:06 PM

View Postzerosnark, on 10 April 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

The simplest explanation, however, is that Ward has turned. The one thing that seems to have been overlooked in this threat is the very high probability that Ward's concern for Skye was VERY, VERY faked. Remember that this line really took hold after the parapalegic Clarevoyant was shot. The "worried about Skye" line only came after an excuse for this incident was needed.

IIRC in the episode Ward was brained-washed by the Asgardian Lorelei she told May that he cared for another woman more. I don't think Skye's name was used, so Lorelei could have been lying to try to hurt/influence May. I don't think Lorelei's and Ward's conversations were that specific either.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#73 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,043 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 02:32 AM

And it might be possible that there is someone we don't know about that has Ward's heart.  I'm sure an agent who has been around the world like him this is at least possible.

#74 G-man

G-man

    Is there a problem?

  • Moderator
  • 8,686 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:21 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 11 April 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

View Postzerosnark, on 10 April 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

The simplest explanation, however, is that Ward has turned. The one thing that seems to have been overlooked in this threat is the very high probability that Ward's concern for Skye was VERY, VERY faked. Remember that this line really took hold after the parapalegic Clarevoyant was shot. The "worried about Skye" line only came after an excuse for this incident was needed.

IIRC in the episode Ward was brained-washed by the Asgardian Lorelei she told May that he cared for another woman more. I don't think Skye's name was used, so Lorelei could have been lying to try to hurt/influence May. I don't think Lorelei's and Ward's conversations were that specific either.

Lorelei isn't the most reliable of sources, and no, Skye's name never came up.  Thus, I was surprised when people immediately latched on to Skye, I had figured it was to be a female to be named later.

Then, also, I saw Ward and Skye more as brother and sister than as a couple, with him feeling rather protective towards her.

(shrug)

As to that whole "Truth Shot" in the premier ... I wouldn't exactly say Ward is the most reliable of sources when he is either making a point, or wanting to yank someone's chain.  The context when he was claiming that it was all an act, it came across like he was messing with Skye's mind, and maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.  This would be the kind of joke people would pull on each other.

The effect though is Skye now doesn't know if what she found out was true or not, which would be to his advantage.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#75 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,225 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:32 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 12 April 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

And it might be possible that there is someone we don't know about that has Ward's heart.  I'm sure an agent who has been around the world like him this is at least possible.

Certainly. Finding out that Lorelei told May he would have had to figure out a way to use it while maintaining cover. He also may feel the need to protect that woman from SHIELD and/or Hydra so it was much easier to go with May's assumption and start using that to his advantage.

Coming across as the "dull" guy could help with people underestimating him. All the supposed team 'bonding' he has done with various team members could have been just solely to further ingratiate (sp?) himself with them.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#76 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 9,225 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:44 AM

Garret had - what seemed at the time - a weird conversation with Skye about Ward's feelings for her. Either he was in on Ward's deception and/or picked up that Ward has feelings for Skye beyond the cover.

Though Garret also made comments to Coulson about hoping that Coulson's team would help smooth Ward's rough edges, but perhaps they were too smoothed. Of course, that was around the death of the faux-clairvoyant. I don't think this was the first time Garret alluded to though If Ward does care about Coulson's team, genuinely, Garret may have picked up on it. Sharing it with Coulson doesn't hurt in any way and Garret may use that information in the future. It is all fraught with too many interpretations when dealing with double agent territory ;) I certainly don't think Garret cared about smoothing Ward's rough edges at all, but, if he sensed that happening, he might have concerns, it is certainly something he would want to take note of.

Edited by sierraleone, 12 April 2014 - 08:46 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#77 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 14,490 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 07:21 PM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 12 April 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

And it might be possible that there is someone we don't know about that has Ward's heart.  I'm sure an agent who has been around the world like him this is at least possible.  
At the time, I thought it was a pretty glaring omission when Lorelei didn't mention Skye by name.  Despite the conversation with Skye in the last episode, I still think it's not her.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#78 Avalon

Avalon
  • Islander
  • 1,730 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:12 AM

^^^I'm forced to agree. I think it's an obvious misdirect. All along, I've felt that Ward only feels protective of Skye, in a way that stems from his history with his brothers. I think he sees her mostly as a little sister (although he does also find her attractive -- but he's not in love with her).

Notice that it's Skye who initiates that kiss. I think he's genuinely surprised for a split-second, but then just goes with it. Why not? It just adds to Skye trusting him.

I'm pretty sure I know who Ward is really in love with, but I won't say as it seems to be confirmed in a preview.

#79 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 14,490 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:49 PM

You think it's a character we already know?
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#80 Avalon

Avalon
  • Islander
  • 1,730 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:03 PM

Yes.

Spoiler




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Agents Of SHIELD, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users