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Obama reverses US stance on dealing with terrorists

June 2014 Board Blowup The Argument

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#21 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 05:10 PM

I honestly never thought I see the day that Exislers sided with dealing with terrorists. this place has truly changed, and not for the good. Agreeing that the US should meet terrorist demands is just something I can't agree with.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#22 Nonny

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 05:31 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 01 June 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I honestly never thought I see the day that Exislers sided with dealing with terrorists. this place has truly changed, and not for the good. Agreeing that the US should meet terrorist demands is just something I can't agree with.

How dare you? HOW DARE YOU?!!  If this were any place but ExIsle I would be using the language you deserve right now.  You have absolutely no right to vomit lies like that to and about people as good, as decent, as caring as the people who, like me, have tolerated your whining and deliberate misunderstanding of us and our motives for far too long.  As of this moment, this veteran, who welcomes home a POW, a brother, has judged you and has found you seriously wanting.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#23 Omega

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 05:48 PM

We're siding with a US soldier, LotS. I wish I could say it surprises me that you're not. But since Obama sided with the soldier and his family, the Party decided you shouldn't. Your also siding against that soldier is the only possible consequence.

Edited by Omega, 01 June 2014 - 05:48 PM.


#24 Spectacles

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 05:51 PM

*
POPULAR

View PostLord of the Sword, on 01 June 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I honestly never thought I see the day that Exislers sided with dealing with terrorists. this place has truly changed, and not for the good. Agreeing that the US should meet terrorist demands is just something I can't agree with.

Let me say this in a way that will resonate with you: Stop lying.

No one is agreeing that the U.S. should meet terrorist demands. You surely must know better than that. You aren't stupid. But you apparently cannot engage with what people are REALLY saying, so you make up an extreme opinion to attack--and to help you to bemoan the degradation of Ex Isle.

I have no respect for you.

Contrary to what you think, you DO dance to whatever song right wing propagandists play. Time after time, you've repeated right wing talking points here only to hang on to them stubbornly when they're challenged by facts. Any outrageous thing you hear on Fox News or elsewhere online, you repeat like a mynah bird. Cliven Bundy is a patriot who is fighting to keep his land. Nancy Pelosi said Congress has to pass the ACA to find out what's in it. During the government shutdown, Obama arrested veterans at the mall in DC but allowed "illegals" to march, and on and on. 90% of the crap you post is untrue.

For someone who claims to have so much integrity, you don't seem to give much of a damn about the truth.

And yeah this is a personal attack. It's a response to your personal attack in which you imply that the patriotism of people here is lacking.

Screw that.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#25 Nonny

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 05:52 PM

I haven't felt the need to do this for years, but I am printing this thread out, taking it with me to my VA hospital tomorrow, and using it in my talk therapy appointment with my clinician.  I am doing it to protect my mental, emotional, and physical health.  I don't give a good g*dd*mn if anybody has a problem with that, because right now a POW has been released and is receiving care in a military hospital away from his captors.  Spec warriors put themselves at risk to bring him in, because it could very well have been an ambush.  They might even have gone in, guns blazing, to rescue him, but that was neither warranted nor needed.  If it turns out that his capture requires investigation, and even a court martial, he has not been found guilty yet.  If it turns out that an investigation clears him, then it clears him.  In any case, his parents are relieved and thrilled, and that counts a whole lot more to me than any Faux Noise, Rushbo jumping the big, blazing, stupid guns.

From LotS's signature:

Quote

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

Carrying on with the Highlander analogy, if there is only ONE, then that ONE has chopped the heads off the rest.  Just saying'.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#26 Dev F

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 06:25 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 01 June 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I honestly never thought I see the day that Exislers sided with dealing with terrorists. this place has truly changed, and not for the good. Agreeing that the US should meet terrorist demands is just something I can't agree with.
I'm sorry, LotS, but the other folks are right. Your argument here is thoughtless and morally bankrupt. You are essentially arguing that it's important to defend an abstract notion like "Don't negotiate with terrorists" even when it has no practical upside, even when it puts American lives in danger. That's not being principled. That's rejecting principle, dooming people to die, for the sake of empty platitudes.

Edited by Dev F, 01 June 2014 - 06:26 PM.


#27 Nonny

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 06:38 PM

The wisdom of Andy Borowitz:

Quote

The P.O.W., upon learning that Obama succeeded in killing bin Laden: "He did? Whoa, he must be super-popular now."

Ya think?   :sarcasm:
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#28 tennyson

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:07 PM

The Taliban was the defacto government of Afghanistan, yes it was only recognized by Pakistan, the UAE and Saudi Arabia but without another functioning government to contest it the principle of "the group that controls the most territory" is the official government. Once Afghanistan gained an elected government to oppose it the Taliban lost the status of de facto government and became another faction in rebellion against the central government. Have they sponsored acts of terror, yes they have but they were once a government, if a highly disfunctional one.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

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#29 Spectacles

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:18 PM

^Yep. And the Bush administration gave the Taliban 43 million dollars in May 2001 in exchange for their edict to stop growing poppies. That was 4 months before 9/11. Why? Because the Taliban, odious though they were, formed the government of Afghanistan.

http://www.cato.org/...-funded-taliban


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The United States has made common cause with an assortment of dubious regimes around the world to wage the war on drugs. Perhaps the most shocking example was Washington’s decision in May 2001 to financially reward Afghanistan’s infamous Taliban government for its edict ordering a halt to the cultivation of opium poppies.

When the Taliban implemented a ban on opium cultivation in early 2001, U.S. officials were most complimentary. James P. Callahan, director of Asian Affairs for the State Department’s Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, uncritically relayed the alleged accounts of Afghan farmers that “the Taliban used a system of consensus-building” to develop and carry out the edict. That characterization was more than a little suspect because the Taliban was not known for pursuing consensus in other aspects of its rule. Columnist Robert Scheer was justifiably scathing in his criticism of the U.S. response. “That a totalitarian country can effectively crack down on its farmers is not surprising,” Sheer noted, but he considered it “grotesque” for a U.S. official to describe the drug-crop crackdown in such benign terms.

Yet the Bush administration did more than praise the Taliban’s proclaimed ban of opium cultivation. In mid-May, 2001, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced a $43 million grant to Afghanistan in addition to the humanitarian aid the United States had long been providing to agencies assisting Afghan refugees. Given Callahan’s comment, there was little doubt that the new stipend was a reward for Kabul’s anti-drug efforts. That $43 million grant needs to be placed in context. Afghanistan’s estimated gross domestic product was a mere $2 billion. The equivalent financial impact on the U.S. economy would have required an infusion of $215 billion. In other words, $43 million was very serious money to Afghanistan’s theocratic masters.

To make matters worse, U.S. officials were naive to take the Taliban edict at face value. The much-touted crackdown on opium poppy cultivation appears to have been little more than an illusion. Despite U.S. and UN reports that the Taliban had virtually wiped out the poppy crop in 2000-2001, authorities in neighboring Tajikistan reported that the amounts coming across the border were actually increasing. In reality, the Taliban gave its order to halt cultivation merely to drive up the price of opium the regime had already stockpiled.

Even if the Taliban had tried to stem cultivation for honest reasons, U.S. cooperation with that regime should have been morally repugnant. Among other outrages, the Taliban government prohibited the education of girls, tortured and executed political critics, and required non-Muslims to wear distinctive clothing—a practice eerily reminiscent of Nazi Germany’s requirement that Jews display the Star of David on their clothing. Yet U.S. officials deemed none of that to be a bar to cooperation with the Taliban on drug policy.

Even if the Bush administration had not been dissuaded by moral considerations, it should have been by purely pragmatic concerns. There was already ample evidence in the spring of 2001 that the Taliban was giving sanctuary to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network that had bombed two U.S. embassies in East Africa. For the State Department to ignore that connection and agree to subsidize the Taliban was inexcusably obtuse.

"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#30 Nonny

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:00 PM

Is Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl a hero or a deserter?

http://www.cbsnews.c...-or-a-deserter/

Quote

... A senior Defense Department official said that if Bergdahl is released, it could be determined that he has more than paid for leaving his unit - if that's what really happened - "and there's every indicator that he did."
Still, it's a conundrum for commanders under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the equal application of the law, according to the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss the Bergdahl case.
Eugene R. Fidell, who teaches military justice at Yale Law School, said if there is evidence that Bergdahl left his unit without permission, he could be charged with being absent without leave (AWOL) or desertion.
Desertion during a time of war can carry the death penalty. But Congress never passed a declaration of war with respect to Afghanistan, and neither President George W. Bush nor President Barack Obama has determined that U.S. military operations in Afghanistan make this a "time of war" for the purposes of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Fidell said.
Were Bergdahl to be charged with desertion, the maximum penalty he would face is five years in prison and a dishonorable discharge, if it's proved that he deserted with the intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. A case of AWOL, ended by the U.S. apprehending him, would not require proof that he intended to remain away permanently. The maximum punishment for that would be a dishonorable discharge and 18 months' confinement, he said.
"Someone is going to have to make a decision, based on a preliminary investigation, as to whether this is a desertion or AWOL rather than simply having the bad luck to have fallen into the wrong hands," Fidell said.
"The command can say 'This fellow has been living in terrible conditions. We don't approve of what he did but we're not going to prosecute him,'" he said. "Or, the military could prosecute him as a way of signaling to others that 'Look, you can't simply go over the hill.' ... It's quite an interesting set of issues that will have to be addressed as a matter of both policy and law."
Desertion can be difficult to prove, said Ret. Maj. Gen. John Altenburg Jr., a Washington attorney who served 28 years as a lawyer in the Army.
"There has to be some evidence that he intended never to come back - that he intended to remain away from his unit permanently," Altenburg said.
"I don't know if they'll charge him with anything. It will depend on the circumstances of his return and what he has to say."
Mary Schantag, chairman of the P.O.W. Network, an educational nonprofit group founded in 1989, said it's futile to speculate. "He is an American soldier in enemy hands. Period. Bring him home," she said.
Rep. Duncan Hunter, a member of the House Armed Services Committee and former Marine who served two tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan, agreed.
"It's hard to imagine any circumstance where his captivity won't be viewed as time served," said Hunter, R-Calif. "The first order of business is securing his release and I don't think it does an ounce of good to begin contemplating that far ahead when the focus is on getting him home."...

Good to know there are still a few good GOP in Congress, or at least one.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#31 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:39 PM

View PostDev F, on 01 June 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

I'm sorry, LotS, but the other folks are right. Your argument here is thoughtless and morally bankrupt. You are essentially arguing that it's important to defend an abstract notion like "Don't negotiate with terrorists" even when it has no practical upside, even when it puts American lives in danger. That's not being principled. That's rejecting principle, dooming people to die, for the sake of empty platitudes.

I fail to see how "We don't negotiate with terrorists" is a morally bankrupt position. Dealing with terrorists only ENCOURAGES future terrorist acts. It gives them INCENTIVE. It tells them that their is a upside to kidnapping and holding hostages for ransom. It baffles me that you don't understand that. It boggles the mind that people here are perfectly OK with Obama breaking the law, by not adhering to the law that he must notify Congress 30 days prior". Let me repeat that: Obama BROKE THE LAW. Period. that right there is grounds for impeachment. And since Obama is now putting MORE american lives at risk, by negotiating with terrorists...GOD only knows what else he has in store for America before his term ends...if it ever does. Cause I can honestly see him refusing to step down, and trying to remain in power...all in the name of national security, or some other BS.

In fact...I'm wondering if this is the reason Carney suddenly resigned? I wonder if Carney couldn't work for a President that would deal with Terrorists?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:40 PM

View PostNonny, on 01 June 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

How dare you? HOW DARE YOU?!!  If this were any place but ExIsle I would be using the language you deserve right now.  You have absolutely no right to vomit lies like that to and about people as good, as decent, as caring as the people who, like me, have tolerated your whining and deliberate misunderstanding of us and our motives for far too long.  As of this moment, this veteran, who welcomes home a POW, a brother, has judged you and has found you seriously wanting.

your judgment means nothing to me.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#33 Nonny

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:45 PM

More wisdom from Andy Borowitz:

Quote

For those keeping score, Obama has had more success negotiating with the Taliban than with Republicans.

Quote

Until today I didn't realize that the correct patriotic response to a P.O.W. release is to be pissed off about it.

Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#34 Tricia

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:18 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 01 June 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on 01 June 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

How dare you? HOW DARE YOU?!!  If this were any place but ExIsle I would be using the language you deserve right now.  You have absolutely no right to vomit lies like that to and about people as good, as decent, as caring as the people who, like me, have tolerated your whining and deliberate misunderstanding of us and our motives for far too long.  As of this moment, this veteran, who welcomes home a POW, a brother, has judged you and has found you seriously wanting.

your judgment means nothing to me.

You stepped over the line, LotS,  with what you said about members of EI and you can't  blame anyone for being hugely offended.

NO ONE said it was okay to negotiate with terrorists  

If the Republicans want to pursue impeachment over this...well, they will have to deal with that but I'm doubting any of them will. May be wrong but we'll see.

In all honesty, I doubt that the US' stated non-negotiation with terrorists has ever stopped kidnappings etc from happening.  Whether civilians or soldiers.  They will still do it. There have been enough cases, I'd think to prove that.  Ones that have been resolved and others that have not. Both in Afghanistan and Iraq and other places in the world.

Edited by Tricia, 01 June 2014 - 09:28 PM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


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#35 Omega

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:19 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 01 June 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

It boggles the mind that people here are perfectly OK with Obama breaking the law, by not adhering to the law that he must notify Congress 30 days prior". Let me repeat that: Obama BROKE THE LAW. Period. that right there is grounds for impeachment.

I'd really love to see that. I'd love to see the Republicans impeach Obama, not for all the actually horrible and evil things he's been responsible for, but for saving an American soldier's life. The party that's been shooting itself in the foot for years would finally have worked its way up to the head. Maybe something sane could take its place.

Edited by Omega, 01 June 2014 - 09:20 PM.


#36 Tricia

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:34 PM

oop

Edited by Tricia, 01 June 2014 - 09:37 PM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#37 Tricia

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:35 PM

**

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#38 Tricia

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:36 PM

okay

I must be really mad

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#39 Dev F

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:43 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 01 June 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

I fail to see how "We don't negotiate with terrorists" is a morally bankrupt position. Dealing with terrorists only ENCOURAGES future terrorist acts. It gives them INCENTIVE. It tells them that their is a upside to kidnapping and holding hostages for ransom. It baffles me that you don't understand that.
And it baffles me that you continue to assert that this has anything to do with "kidnapping and holding hostages for ransom," when I've already pointed out that it involves a prisoner of war captured in the normal course of warfare. I've also explained why negotiating in such cases actually encourages humane behavior, because there's an upside to not just straight-up executing American prisoners. You haven't refuted any of those arguments; you're just screaming "But the Taliban are terrorists!" as if it has some intrinsic meaning that doesn't need to be justified in any meaningful way. That's why your argument is morally bankrupt.

Here's my question for you: What do you imagine that this awful, awful "Negotiating with terrorists" will encourage the Taliban to do that they're not already doing? Do you think the enemy who's dead set on driving us out of Afghanistan has been holding back, and now that they know they'll be able to exchange prisoners with us they'll . . . what? Go on a prisoner-taking rampage across the country? Would that actually be worse than what they're now doing, which is devoting all their energy to killing American soldiers whenever and wherever they can?

Edited by Dev F, 01 June 2014 - 09:44 PM.


#40 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 12:03 AM

View PostDev F, on 01 June 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:


Here's my question for you: What do you imagine that this awful, awful "Negotiating with terrorists" will encourage the Taliban to do that they're not already doing? Do you think the enemy who's dead set on driving us out of Afghanistan has been holding back, and now that they know they'll be able to exchange prisoners with us they'll . . . what? Go on a prisoner-taking rampage across the country? Would that actually be worse than what they're now doing, which is devoting all their energy to killing American soldiers whenever and wherever they can?

You're looking at this as if the Taliban are the ONLY bad guys in the world. They aren't. Now that it has been publicly established that the US does negotiate with terrorists, what's to stop drug cartels from pulling this same stunt? Or anyone else for that matter?

You guys claim that it's because I'm so dead set against Obama as the reason I'm against this. I think it's cause you guys are so in love with the boy is the reason you don't mind dealing and negotiating and meeting terrorists demands.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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