Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

LoTS should not have been banned from that thread

June 2014 Board Blowup The Argument

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
108 replies to this topic

#41 EChatty

EChatty

    Lurker Extaordinaire

  • SuperMod
  • 22,747 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:53 PM

Okay, listen up. If you read Miko's posts, you will see that she fully intends to respond in detail. BUT, she lives on the other side of the world, it's nearly 1:00 in the morning over there and she's gone to bed. I live in Mississippi and that means that she's six hours ahead of me.

She won't be on the board until sometime in the afternoon tomorrow-UK time.

#42 Anakam

Anakam

    Way Star

  • Islander
  • 13,862 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:01 PM

View PostEChatty, on 09 June 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Okay, listen up. If you read Miko's posts, you will see that she fully intends to respond in detail. BUT, she lives on the other side of the world, it's nearly 1:00 in the morning over there and she's gone to bed. I live in Mississippi and that means that she's six hours ahead of me.

She won't be on the board until sometime in the afternoon tomorrow-UK time.

OK, I don't understand.  On page 2 you asked us to be civil while Mikoto's writing her response.  I think Mikoto also said the next time she'd have a chance to be on EI.  I'm seeing some irritation in a few posts, in more posts if I squint, but nothing that seems really rude and for my own part I've been proofreading for civility more than usual.  Where is the rudeness and pushiness?  Do you not want anyone to post at all in this thread until she does?

#43 Omega

Omega

    Maktel shcree lotak meta setak Oz!

  • Moderator
  • 4,028 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:07 PM

I think the power set of everyone is irritated at this point. (Goodness knows i'm sick of me. And that {} had just better stay out of my face.) Let's just accept that, and not poke each other over it for a day or two. Please?

Edited by Omega, 09 June 2014 - 07:08 PM.


#44 EChatty

EChatty

    Lurker Extaordinaire

  • SuperMod
  • 22,747 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:11 PM

Anakam: No, but it seems that people are still grumbling about not getting a response so I posted again that her response won't be until tomorrow. If people want to carry on discussing the topic, fine, but grumbling about not getting a response isn't going to get her response any sooner.

#45 Balderdash

Balderdash
  • Islander
  • 5,729 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:15 PM

View PostSpectacles, on 09 June 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Sorry, Baldy. I have to disagree. Booting LoTS 8 days after he made the offending comment makes no sense.

And all they've done is fulfill his "last remaining blah blah" stuff. Booting Nonny, too, for pointing out a fact looks more like an effort to be even-handed or to perhaps respond to an argument LoTS made behind-the-scenes.

This is bad moderation. None of it was necessary. People were taking care of disagreements on their own.

Yeah, the 8 days is a problem and you're right it was over by the time something was done, a day late and a dollar short as my Grandma would say.  And we can disagree once in a while, I still think you're the best thing since sliced bread.  :)

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#46 Mark

Mark
  • Islander
  • 5,269 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:40 PM

View PostAnakam, on 09 June 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

View PostMark, on 09 June 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Mark: Please note...I don't want to come off as griping in this thread about moderation...only discussing my concerns over how and when the actions were taken.
From the longer version of the guidelines...
The Staff has the option of warning for violations up to 5 days after a post is made.

I strongly believe that rule I posted above (or a new similar one) should apply to thread banning, also...(which IMO is already implied by that GL sentence).

B. Staff Responsibilities Moderators have wide discretion over their assigned forums, but shall moderate within the scope of the Guidelines. The goal of successful moderation is to maintain and encourage respectful and civil discourse on the board. If a problem post's effect is remedied by self-moderation or continued dialog with other posters before a staff member intervenes, it is not necessary for the staff member to go back and sanction the post, unless it falls under the severe violations listed in section II. A below.

Mark, I get what you're saying in this post (didn't quote all of it to save space), but LoP said here that the 'old GLs are gone'.  As I posted earlier, I read the timeline for action to be the same as before (a mixture of desire to have a timeline for it plus sheer laziness because I'm pretty sure the 5 days was discussed to death).  That post came a month after LoP posted the simplified GLs, which kept the five days, so I don't know if any of us can assume mods/admins will be modding at all as laid out in the old GLs.

Mark: I still hold to the fact moderation has to be done in a timely fashion, or it's a useless tool. So even if we're going by new rules, timely moderation makes a difference...untimely moderation makes confusion and often-times leads to resentment.
Mikoto is certainly not expected by me to have to reply here until she's able and ready. I fully understand the situation she's in.
That being said, I don't think Mikoto's moderation was done singularly, and there are other staff members who could address this discussion if they choose to.

Also, while the old rules were still in place, it was once said by a staff moderator...
"OT warning and OT thread boot...
You can't have one without the other."

So far, I like LoP having the final say in all controversies over rules, and also less rules to worry about. However, this is one of those occasions where short, nicely written GL's would be extremely helpful to the average member. ...I'm just saying...

Edited by Mark, 09 June 2014 - 07:46 PM.

Mark
Discussion is an exchange of knowledge: argument is an exchange of ignorance.
Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
APOGEE MESSAGE BOARD

#47 EChatty

EChatty

    Lurker Extaordinaire

  • SuperMod
  • 22,747 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:44 PM

Mark: The other moderators/admins who had access to what was going on are not on the board right now.

Me, I did not have access to the PM because I'm not officially an OT moderator, I'm just filling in watching the place while Rhea recovers from her fall. I have jurisdiction to boot/ban if needed, but Miko had taken care of that.

#48 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:08 PM

View PostOmega, on 09 June 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

I'm not sure what's gone on behind the scenes, and I'll defer to staff on that. I've been there! So let me just describe what it looks like on this side of the curtain. I've been an OT mod twice, and I trust the motivations of everyone on staff implicitly. So if it looks to me like something is being handled in a way that makes no sense, the staff has a serious perception problem. And perception problems are real problems around here. :)

There was no benefit to booting LotS from that thread. Whether it's justified or not based on his (clearly, if unconsciously, racist) statement, if there's nothing to be gained by executing a boot, I'd argue against it. Discussion had calmed down by the time anyone got around to it. Moderating when moderation does not achieve a specific goal is, almost definitionally, harmful.

Now, Nonny getting booted appears to be completely unjustified. She called a statement racism. And it was. As I understand it, that's allowable by our standards, and always has been.

My strong suggestion would be that if staff is going to take action like that, based on discussions that took place unseen, some public explanation would be good.

To Rhea (and by extension the entire staff), statements from any staff member to the effect that they won't discuss any issue further are (again from a perception standpoint) just not helpful. I'm not presently saying anyone is obligated to discuss anything, but saying you won't is probably a bad idea. Also, if discussion of moderator action is to be confined to this forum, the staff should hold fast to that as well.

Specs, declaring a discussion in IC to be useless in under nine hours is, frankly, absurd. Give the staff some breathing room. I agree that they messed up, but they're trying, and they can only respond so fast. Nine hours is not enough time, and I think you understand that. You're acting out of anger, not reason. We all do that sometimes. But it evokes an anger response from others, and that's not what you want right now.

In fact, the whole situation is just snowballing. Can we please all take a step back before responding, and ask whether you're posing in anger? Even anger at me for calling out about half the forum just now? :)

I explained the rationale in the thread, as did Miko.  It was discussed in the SL before action was taken, another reason for the slowness. We rarely do anything without discussion there. We'll try to minimize the SL discussions in the interests of promptness from now on. I completely understand the need for prompt action. I am to blame for some of the slowness, given that I was in the hospital and then took a bad fall after I got home.

We're always happy to discuss staff action via PM, particularly when the PM is started by the person who is the recipient of the staff action (as we have been with LotS). The person who was the recipient of the staff action may agree to disagree with us, but we usually come to an understanding. We refuse to take action on a great many complaints. You just don't see that part of the job. We get a complaint, we respond to the complainant and we discuss our rationale (usually not taking action) for either the action or lack of action. Most of the members who report a poster's actions don't want to be identified outside of the SL, and they have a right to their privacy.

I haven't participated in this thread because we were very clear about why we were doing what we were doing. We did explain ourselves in the thread. You're all more than entitled to your opinions, but anything else Miko and I have to say will simply contribute to an argument. I was not ignoring any of you - I just personally have nothing else constructive to contribute to the discussion. As many of you have pointed out, it's all about perception, and yours is different from ours this time.

I hope this clarifies the situation somewhat. Sorry, but the condition of my body won't allow me to sit any more today.

Edited by Rhea, 09 June 2014 - 09:41 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#49 Balderdash

Balderdash
  • Islander
  • 5,729 posts

Posted 09 June 2014 - 11:46 PM

Well, the rationale for what was done to Nonny in my opinion still sucks and sets a bad precedent but we must balance the scales as always.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#50 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:14 AM

View PostAnakam, on 09 June 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

View PostGodeskian, on 09 June 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

If you choose to bow out at this point Specs, I'll understand, but I dislike immensely the implied threat of closure of Exisle due to having a debate about moderator actions in the forum specifically for such discussions. This vague notion of 'if the TOS violations keep up we may not be able to keep Exisle open' suggests a far deeper concern, and frankly I've been here too damn long to let that go.

Yep on that, especially the TOS violations thing, Gode.  Speaking of which, I can't even find them--there's a link in the old board guidelines (Fossil skin, bottom of page), but clicking on it just takes me to the board index.  Even if that's just my browser having an attitude problem, the idea of mounting TOS violations is pretty disturbing.

I've got the same problem here (Comfy skin) so it's not just you.

It seems that issue with the link to the TOS was mentioned somewhere here before but not sure when or what thread.

Anyone got a working link?

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#51 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:47 AM

Well, someone could just ask for staff to clarify that statement on this thread.

Staff, what TOS violations have been "mounting up" recently?

Thanks.
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#52 EChatty

EChatty

    Lurker Extaordinaire

  • SuperMod
  • 22,747 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:41 AM

I've asked in the SL for someone to find a link to the ToS and put it in LoP's pinned thread here in IC as per Tricia's request. Me, I can't find it either, so that's why I asked about it. Hopefully someone can find them and link to them.

#53 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:03 AM

Based on other TOS I have read, I have a general idea of what might be included in any TOS for a site but actually seeing the TOS for EI would be helpful.

If Orph can't fix the link, maybe he could copy and paste it?

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#54 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:07 AM

Thanks, Chatty. That would be helpful.

The claim that has alarmed so many is that there have been mounting TOS violations that staff has had to deal with as the board's guidelines have been loosened a bit.

People are concerned because this is alarming. Plus no one has seen this happening. One would think that TOS violations--which usually include porn and copyright violations--would be apparent to the membership.

So apparently, we've missed some pretty egregious stuff.....
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#55 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:14 AM

Orph is working on it

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#56 Spectacles

Spectacles
  • Awaiting Authorisation
  • 9,632 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:17 AM

Quote

Cait: We all know your penchant to just having staff stay out of your way and let you be.  There a lots of threads that can be viewed if anyone else is interested.  I understand this is a pet project Specs.  There was a time, when it would have been a pet project of mine.  But after dealing with members from the staff side of things, letting you all just have a free for all while staff scrambles to keep this place open when TOS violations mount up, well, isn't all that productive in the end.

So the question, really, is not "where's the TOS?" but "huh?" What TOS violations have been mounting up?
"Facts are stupid things." -Ronald Reagan at the 1988 Republican National Convention, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"

"Although health care enrollment is actually going pretty well at this point, thousands and maybe millions of Americans have failed to sign up for coverage because they believe the false horror stories they keep hearing." -- Paul Krugman

#57 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:27 AM

^^^^I'm reading that as the key word being "when" but I may be wrong.

Would be good to review the TOS either way because it never hurts to have a reminder :)


Somehow we've gotten derailed from the OP here .  Sort of.

Edited by Tricia, 10 June 2014 - 08:32 AM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#58 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:41 AM

View PostMikoto, on 09 June 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Patience everyone.

You will get the explanation as to why they were thread booted. And why it took so long. (I assure you, there is a legitimate reason for it.) You're all making assumptions about things done in private conversation, and in SL where you can't see. You've only got half the picture.

But you'll get the explanation when I have the time necessary to craft such a post as every word will be intensely scrutinized, which means it takes awhile to craft it so every word means what I want it to mean. Honestly its been nine hours and you're already baiting me and pushing me to explain when I'm not ready? I have a life, you know.

My mental health care provider and I will be interested to see that legitimate reason.

As for private conversations, my impacted Inbox makes it impossible for anyone not on the staff to open a private conversation with me.  Where are the moderator attempts to discuss this with me privately?  As it stands, it looks like I was booted for calling somebody a "racism."
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#59 Mikoto

Mikoto

    Rejected on all levels.

  • Islander
  • 9,304 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:10 AM

All right, here is most of what has been going on regarding this matter. Understand there are still conversations in SL and in PM that you have not seen and I'm not authorized to release without further permission.

Specs-while you feel resentful at my calling your angry pushing for a response before I'm ready, "baiting". I very much feel it was baiting and I've taken offense to it. However, I'm a big girl, I'm moving on.

The font of most of my explanation might be a bit wonky but that's because I worked on it in a document and c/ped the bulk of it here.

This is the only explanation I'm giving. I won't repeat myself and I may only respond for clarification purposes. If you still have a serious problem with my moderating, then your next step is to PM an Admin or LoP about it. So here goes.

So the first question being asked is "Why did the staff take so long to respond?" (I've been authorized by the Admins to share the following information.)

Quite simply because there was a lot of confusion about how the new guidelines worked when I brought the topic up in SL right after I issued my initial "Knock it off" post in the OT thread itself. Some Staffers including myself thought that we couldn't use any tools like thread boots or warnings, that we simply had to tell a member what not to do and if they don't cooperate we take it to LoP to discuss a ban. Yet other staff thought that we could still use our mod tools as well as verbally asking a member to cooperate. After quite literally days of back and forth about interpreting the GL's I finally summoned LoP to decide it once and for all. Obviously he confirmed we could still use our tools. Then after that I conferred with Rhea about what to do with LotS and the thread boot was issued. An unfortunate set of circumstances but that was what it was. We decided on carrying on through with the thread boots because we did not want to set the "Well you didn't do it last time so I should get away with it this time" precedent. In any case this is a one-off problem as now everyone understands the new GLs.

Secondly. "Why did we boot LotS out of the thread?"

That has a two-part answer. Part one is because his post consisted of unacceptable remarks and accusations towards fellow ExIslers.

What LotS called 'negotiating with terrorists', others call a 'prisoner exchange' which routinely occurs at the end of wars, especially with POWs. Just because other members are defending a prisoner exchange it doesn't make them terrorist-supporters. Just because they're happy to see a soldier being returned home after captivity doesn't make them terrorist-supprters. It's not acceptable to accuse fellow members of things like that.

Part two is my request as a moderator was and always has been, for LotS to dial it back and be nicer to his fellow members by refraining from making those kinds of accusation. Soon after I'd announced his post was under review he PM'd me stating point blank that he wasn't going to change, thereby I can reason he wasn't going to cooperate with Rhea and I. The truth is he had every opportunity to just agree with my request. All he had to was say "Ok" and tone down his behaviour. Instead he chose to make this an issue about cooperation. Well, so be it. You refuse to cooperate with moderators who are then forced to step it up a notch. Hence, the thread boot.

Finally. "Why was Nonny booted?"

She accused LotS of making racist remarks. While I'm not American and thus can't judge whether the remark was indeed racist or not since the connotation isn't in my normal vocabluary, I defer to Rhea on that. In any case, Nonny, instead of addressing his point, which is basically that he thinks Democrats are too enthralled with Obama to see what LotS considers the immorality of what he's done, she chose to attack his statement as racist and by logical extension, LotS. If you call what someone said racist, you're accusing them of engaging in racist behaviour. LotS has already been sanctioned for his actions in that thread, and I find it difficult to look at what, from his point of view and mine, is a personally insulting statement since it was addressed specifically to LotS' personal opinion and not say the same thing to Nonny, about sticking to the argument rather than name-calling back to make a point. Both Rhea and I agree on this matter. It's not acceptable behaviour. In addition to this, although the moment has passed we felt that the ban had to be enacted because we'd done the same with LotS, due to the confusion that occurred about the new guideline setup.
Rejected and gone.

#60 yadda yadda

yadda yadda
  • Islander
  • 1,503 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:15 AM

View PostNonny, on 10 June 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

View PostMikoto, on 09 June 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Patience everyone.

You will get the explanation as to why they were thread booted. And why it took so long. (I assure you, there is a legitimate reason for it.) You're all making assumptions about things done in private conversation, and in SL where you can't see. You've only got half the picture.

But you'll get the explanation when I have the time necessary to craft such a post as every word will be intensely scrutinized, which means it takes awhile to craft it so every word means what I want it to mean. Honestly its been nine hours and you're already baiting me and pushing me to explain when I'm not ready? I have a life, you know.

My mental health care provider and I will be interested to see that legitimate reason.

As for private conversations, my impacted Inbox makes it impossible for anyone not on the staff to open a private conversation with me.  Where are the moderator attempts to discuss this with me privately?  As it stands, it looks like I was booted for calling somebody a "racism."

I've been basically sitting back and watching this discussion develop without making comment because i don't want to repeat or exacerbate my rookie gaffe of inappropriately questioning the staff's (Rhea's) censure of you Nonny, prior to the actual booting of you from the thread. If you have not been contacted privately thus far to provide a reason for that action, the reason as laid forth in post #165 by Mikoto was presented somewhat offhandedly, as an additional comment to post #163 where Mikoto states she will so longer be discussing moderation issues within that thread. Post #163 states..."Though perhaps I should have said I'm discussing it no further other than to boot Nonny from the thread for post #47. I appreciate what Yadda was trying to say but my opinion is closer to Rhea's than anyone else. It came across as racist and that isn't acceptable behaviour either..."

  This statement kind of threw me for a loop because it both dismissed my carefully considered and in my opinion, unassailable argument that you had criticized the content of LoTS' racist statement, and not LoTS as being a racist..."post, not poster", and agreed with Rhea's conclusion which to me appeared to be based on something other than or apart from the facts and of the matter and the quoted rhetoric in evidence. The concluding line of Mikoto's statement relating to booting you "It came across as racist and that isn't acceptable behaviour either" made no sense to me. What came across as racist? Your criticism of LoTS' racist statement now makes you, Nonny, a racist? That non sequitur along with agreement with and validation of Rhea's (in my view) illogical and incorrect assessment of the original scenario left me to simply throw up my hands and throw in my cards. I didn't want to appear as an argumentative whiner, nor make the mods look bad by continuing to point out their errant conclusion as based upon the evident facts. Plus, I didn't realize there was this IC forum to properly make these arguments and raise these issues.      

  I simply wanted to add to the list of those here whom see no justification for your booting from that thread. Mikoto has said that she will work to craft a statement of explanation for her action and I hope that it will credibly address the basic issue of why your post was judged an personal attack on LoTS instead of a calling out of the content of his post's "boy" reference. That is really what this boils down to. Not behind the scenes consideration of the level of LoTS' capacity for taking offense or attempts to balance the scales of censure for the appearance of even-handedness.

           Hang in there Nonny. Don't let it get you down.

yadda



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: June 2014 Board Blowup, The Argument

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users