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How does this message board deal with racism?

racism June 2014 Board Blowup The Argument

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#141 Balderdash

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 10:26 PM

View PostCait, on 17 June 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

View Postyadda yadda, on 15 June 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

   Hey Baldy, since you ask questions or offer observations and get "I'm not going to repeat myself" and then an inference that you're deaf, and I ask basically the same questions and make the same observations and get a rather thought out, detailed, and insightful explanation....just sayin' if you like, feel free to phrase your questions or observations in the form of "what yadda said?" or "what yadda said!"  :smirk:

This is an interesting response, but before I get to it, I hope you all won't mind me clarifying something.  The saying "fall on deaf ears" refers to continuing to talk when someone isn't listening or will not change a position.  In other words, it was Miko's reference to herself, NOT a reference to Baldy.  Miko has made her position and her decision making clear, and won't continue to debate it.  To continue to do so [with Miko] means your words will fall on her deaf ears.  Just wanted to make that clear before this small thing escalates into something completely unnecessary.

I think that if this "small thing" were going to escalate it would have done so by now.  And, if that's the case we've all been wasting our time, so what's new.

Quote

And before anyone says it, stating a position clearly and maintaining a position, DOES NOT mean, nor has it ever meant, that Miko wasn't listening or that any other staff member wasn't listening.  It simply means there is an impasse .  I think the saying "agree to disagree" applies here.

Or it could mean what it always means in here, in IC.

Quote

Now to the quoted part.  What a healthy observation.  Talking in measured tones, without insult is a way to be heard and to engage in a conversation?  What a concept.  You mean civil discussion can work?

Yes, that was sarcasm, but not directed at anyone.  Please believe that.  It's just such an interesting observation for a relative newcomer to make here in IC.  My irony meter went off.  I wish we all could note this excellent observation [yes, myself included], and maybe we wouldn't get so angry with each other.

Just a reminder here [as a long standing member & staff member], we are not enemies here.  We honestly aren't.  Can't we try to approach each other as friends who have a misunderstanding instead of as enemies?

I don't think that we're enemies at all,  staff and LoP are the grownups and we members little children.

Edited by Balderdash, 17 June 2014 - 10:27 PM.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



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#142 Cait

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 10:57 PM

View PostBalderdash, on 17 June 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:



I think that if this "small thing" were going to escalate it would have done so by now.  And, if that's the case we've all been wasting our time, so what's new.

To be clear, I meant the "deaf ears" small misunderstanding, NOT the major one that is the topic of this thread.

Quote

Or it could mean what it always means in here, in IC.

I suppose it could, but then people would only be viewing things from one POV, and we all know that in real life, there are always multiple POV's [i.e. multiple realities and multiple truths].  It's why the truth is so difficult to determine in real life.  So many POV's, so many opinions about what is true, and so many ways to falter in our meditations on life and livingness.

Quote

I don't think that we're enemies at all,  staff and LoP are the grownups and we members little children.

This is a sad statement.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#143 yadda yadda

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 11:22 PM

View PostCait, on 17 June 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

View Postyadda yadda, on 15 June 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

   Hey Baldy, since you ask questions or offer observations and get "I'm not going to repeat myself" and then an inference that you're deaf, and I ask basically the same questions and make the same observations and get a rather thought out, detailed, and insightful explanation....just sayin' if you like, feel free to phrase your questions or observations in the form of "what yadda said?" or "what yadda said!"  :smirk:

This is an interesting response, but before I get to it, I hope you all won't mind me clarifying something.  The saying "fall on deaf ears" refers to continuing to talk when someone isn't listening or will not change a position.  In other words, it was Miko's reference to herself, NOT a reference to Baldy.  Miko has made her position and her decision making clear, and won't continue to debate it.  To continue to do so [with Miko] means your words will fall on her deaf ears.  Just wanted to make that clear before this small thing escalates into something completely unnecessary.

And before anyone says it, stating a position clearly and maintaining a position, DOES NOT mean, nor has it ever meant, that Miko wasn't listening or that any other staff member wasn't listening.  It simply means there is an impasse .  I think the saying "agree to disagree" applies here.

Now to the quoted part.  What a healthy observation.  Talking in measured tones, without insult is a way to be heard and to engage in a conversation?  What a concept.  You mean civil discussion can work?

Yes, that was sarcasm, but not directed at anyone.  Please believe that.  It's just such an interesting observation for a relative newcomer to make here in IC.  My irony meter went off.  I wish we all could note this excellent observation [yes, myself included], and maybe we wouldn't get so angry with each other.

Just a reminder here [as a long standing member & staff member], we are not enemies here.  We honestly aren't.  Can't we try to approach each other as friends who have a misunderstanding instead of as enemies?

Thank you Cait for noting the virtue of civility in discussion, and complimenting my use of same. I'm flattered. I've long felt a civil tone and respect for others beats angry contentiousness hands down in fostering understanding and better communication. Even while modeling *yadda pirouettes* my suit of civility it should be noted that we all are capable of slipping now and again into inappropriate personal commentary (except probably Gode) when the heat was on as did I in an exchange with another member the other day. So please postpone my canonization ceremony. :happy:

I would like to say that yes, I have maintained a civil tongue in this protracted discussion of this issue of Nonny's booting and the new guideline of mandated suspension of moral duty and conscience in deference to staff's superior clarity of thought in identifying offensive content of the various nasty -isms. Nonetheless I have felt an equal level of frustration and disappointment to that of Baldy, Specs, Nonny, and the many other members who form a consensus that the intransigence, inflexibility, and demeanor of defensiveness manifested by staff in announcement, attempting justification, and ultimate declaration of an impasse for discussing these decisions demonstrate error and lack of justifiability and act to do both the staff and the EI membership a disservice.

   Civil discourse is always nice but sometimes a strident voice and a shoe banging on a desk can also be a tool to get a point across to deaf ears that can nonetheless pick up the vibrations. Or to register a point for posterity. A spoonful of sugar can help the medicine go down, in a most delightful way. But if it's bad or contraindicated medicine is it really doing anyone any good?

All I have to do is look at the OT forum, where posting traffic has dried up to a virtually nil trickle, where last week it was a vibrant marketplace of exchanged ideas, information, and perspective. Sometimes the best intended prescribed medicine does not effect a recovery or cure. Sometimes the patient lapses into a coma.

Respectfully to all at EI, yadda

Edited by yadda yadda, 17 June 2014 - 11:38 PM.


#144 Mikoto

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 10:42 AM

Thank you, Cait and Yadda.

Both of you have made reasonable and accurate points. Yes, I've made my decision and I won't change my mind. And yes, I respond far better to civilised, reasoned discussion over angry contentiousness. Yadda, while we disagree, it has been a pleasure discussing the situation with you.

And while I won't be changing my mind about the thread boots, I've learnt and taken in new perspectives from this experience. And just because I'm not answering every post, it doesn't mean I'm not reading.
Rejected and gone.

#145 Balderdash

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:22 AM

^^^ Unfreaking-believable.  Ok, I'm out.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#146 Nonny

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:57 AM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 17 June 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

^^  Indeed. Only by speaking out can we change the world.  :)

Absolutely.  For speaking out and standing up for myself and other women in the mid 70s to early 80s, I have ended up mentally disabled, physically disabled, and six units short for Social Security retirement.  My comp&pen nontaxable income is being attacked my my state's tax board, and I can't even devote all my time to writing anymore, as fighting back is sucking the life out of my time.  And while my actions did benefit my sisters in arms for a while, once more the entrenched male culture of the armed forces is fighting back, rape, workplace and all.

While an unfair thread boot is the least of my worries, it is a nuisance, and this is why: I put my life on the line fighting sexism, just to find that, all these years later, sexist language is still widely acceptable, as is sexist behavior in the workplace.  Racism OTOH is a big deal.  I attacked no one.  I merely pointed out a potential problem with language that, because racism counts, is an issue, but had it been sexist, would have been ignored.

Last night I found out that women officers can be and have been court martialed for failing to report a rape.  Damned if they do, damned if they don't.  They don't report because bringing charges against a brother in arms destroys their career.  If it is discovered that a rape was not reported, it's the victim who ends up in trouble and heading for Leavenworth, not the rapist.  Would somebody like to tell me that anything about that is okay?  Here's a clue: don't. Just don't.
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#147 Mikoto

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 12:05 PM

Oh and Nonny,

I've got nothing against you at all. Honestly. When it comes to sexism our opinions are much closer than it seems. Feel free to PM me and I'd enjoy discussing the subject with you. :)


Edited to add: Oh yeah I nearly forgot your PM system is glitched here. Still, I go under the same name on TerranBBS.

Edited by Mikoto, 18 June 2014 - 12:18 PM.

Rejected and gone.

#148 M.E.

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 12:27 PM

Unfreaking-believable.

#149 Themis

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:49 PM

View Postyadda yadda, on 17 June 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

All I have to do is look at the OT forum, where posting traffic has dried up to a virtually nil trickle, where last week it was a vibrant marketplace of exchanged ideas, information, and perspective. Sometimes the best intended prescribed medicine does not effect a recovery or cure. Sometimes the patient lapses into a coma.

Indeed.  The world, especially the Middle East, is going to Tartarus in a handbasket again and there's a distinct lack of commentary in OT.  A sure sign that the patient has lapsed into a coma.  If "comatose" is the way TPTB want that forum to be, why not just eliminate it?
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#150 Rhea

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 11:20 AM

View PostNonny, on 18 June 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Absolutely.  For speaking out and standing up for myself and other women in the mid 70s to early 80s, I have ended up mentally disabled, physically disabled, and six units short for Social Security retirement.  My comp&pen nontaxable income is being attacked my my state's tax board, and I can't even devote all my time to writing anymore, as fighting back is sucking the life out of my time.

Have you applied for Social Security Disability? Surely you would qualify based on physical disability alone. That income could start before you turn 65 and would be the same amount as you would get from regular Social Security.

(Sorry for getting off track, but this is important.)

Edited by Rhea, 21 June 2014 - 11:23 AM.

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#151 EChatty

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 11:26 AM

Not a problem Rhea. I know Nonny's PM system is frazzled. I hope she can work something out.

#152 Nonny

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:31 PM

View PostRhea, on 21 June 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

View PostNonny, on 18 June 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Absolutely.  For speaking out and standing up for myself and other women in the mid 70s to early 80s, I have ended up mentally disabled, physically disabled, and six units short for Social Security retirement.  My comp&pen nontaxable income is being attacked my my state's tax board, and I can't even devote all my time to writing anymore, as fighting back is sucking the life out of my time.

Have you applied for Social Security Disability? Surely you would qualify based on physical disability alone. That income could start before you turn 65 and would be the same amount as you would get from regular Social Security.

(Sorry for getting off track, but this is important.)

I was cheated out of SSD in the early 80s, didn't find out until about four years ago.  I have tried but haven't been able to confirm any of the information, but SSD application is based on timeliness, so once your time runs out, so does your eligibility, and mine ran out decades ago.

If I had received SSD three decades ago, I would be receiving both SSD and VA comp&pen, but since I had finally, and with very bad grace, been granted SSI, every penny was clawed back out of my c&p back pay.

Meanwhile, I have spent the last few years trying to get healthy enough for a part time job to make up those 6 units.  All the agencies that assist veterans, disabled veterans (and I qualify as superdisabled) and women dropped me last year, and when I realized why and fixed the problem, won't budge (imagine that).

Did you know that if you claim a college degree and a potential employer cannot get hands on your transcript, they assume you lied?  And that it's a job hunt killer?  Because no matter how you are able to prove, as in my case, that your college acknowledges that they kept an illegal hold on your transcript and that they are sorry and will provide it upon demand, you are DONE.

Oh yeah, and if I had stayed married for exactly six and a half months longer, this would not be a problem.  I'd be covered under the dx's megaunits.

My last hope is finding sponsorship and advertizing for my blog, which is a reach out to disabled and suicidal veterans, but is mostly a vanity blog, displaying what I do to stay strong, and not informative, as I am not qualified to do more than provide links and advice on how to survive the VA claims process, and not how to manage it.

Somehow the same forces that have decreed that disabled veterans are moochers have made the VA claims process hell, and have tricked the Dems into allowing a good and honorable man to be vilified, and rendered us vulnerable to what is amusingly called nonVA healthcare with a GOP eye to destroying the whole system with privatization.  Military supply is a mess because it was privatized into Halliburton in the 70s, other support services more recently.  Whatever is wrong with the VAMCs can be fixed with more staff and better budgetary support.

I agree that it is important, and I appreciate your concern, but all my efforts and the efforts of those trying to help have come up with nothing but obstacles.
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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#153 Tricia

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostThemis, on 18 June 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

View Postyadda yadda, on 17 June 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

All I have to do is look at the OT forum, where posting traffic has dried up to a virtually nil trickle, where last week it was a vibrant marketplace of exchanged ideas, information, and perspective. Sometimes the best intended prescribed medicine does not effect a recovery or cure. Sometimes the patient lapses into a coma.

Indeed.  The world, especially the Middle East, is going to Tartarus in a handbasket again and there's a distinct lack of commentary in OT.  A sure sign that the patient has lapsed into a coma.  If "comatose" is the way TPTB want that forum to be, why not just eliminate it?
If you look at just the first page of OT, there are 47 threads (or there were were I counted yesterday).  Of that 47, 19! were started by 1 person (Specs), 9 were started by another member (Nonny), and the rest by 10 different people, some of who had started 1 or 2.

It has happened before that OT was quiet   ....and it is likely to happen again.  

I am not much of a thread-starter in OT myself as I am never sure whether my concerns in the news are of interest to anyone else.

But  why should someone else always start the threads?  Why not just go for it and do it? Especially news of the Middle East issues.

(again, not personally much of a thread starter and I have been busy this week so not as up on the news of the last two weeks or I would do it)

Edited by Tricia, 21 June 2014 - 12:35 PM.

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#154 Nonny

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostEChatty, on 21 June 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Not a problem Rhea. I know Nonny's PM system is frazzled. I hope she can work something out.

I spent years trying to straighten it out, but gave up a long time ago.  Mods and admins can reach me, or could a few months ago.
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#155 Tricia

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:42 PM

^^^I  think that they can but only if they use an already existing pm as I could do it that way months as a member...but when it was accidentally deleted on my end (checked the wrong box) ...no more. :(

So unless it is still existing on both ends....no can do

Edited by Tricia, 21 June 2014 - 12:43 PM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.




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