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How does this message board deal with racism?

racism June 2014 Board Blowup The Argument

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#41 M.E.

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:52 PM

I used to love posting daily on this board, LoP.

Now......I'm just too scared .  :ninja2:

Ya know what?  It took me 30 minutes to write/type these three lines and another 10 to press post. :whatsthat:

#42 Mark

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 12:01 AM

Mark: Now, there's our first case proving my point, LoP.
I'm sorry you've been so scared about things here, M.E.

added in...I'd also hate to lose Spectacles (one of our smartest, brightest members), and yadda-yadda (another well-spoken EI member) over something like what's going on.

If absolute power must rule absolutely, by all means, rule with absolute humility! Allow yourselves to be human, and admit mistakes. Overturn rulings when everyone involved knows the ruling was unjust, especially given the time-period after the offenses. Is that too much to ask?

Edited by Mark, 12 June 2014 - 06:29 AM.

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#43 243Skunk

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 12:31 AM

I must be in a conformist type mood the last several days. I am not really seeing the issue here. Lord of the sword (whom I like) verbally attacked the membership, which isnt allowed, and got booted. Nonny (whom I also like) in turn attacked him, calling his posts racist, and got booted too. I didnt like their part in the debate getting ended like that as they were both making points, but they broke the rules and got punished.

As a US citizen, I have the right of freedom of speech. But nowhere in the constitution does it say I have freedom of speech on a internet message board. Someone pays the bills. Gotta follow their rules, or be shown the door.

#44 Mark

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 03:30 AM

Mark: Ah, but 'tis this lack of member rules along with the lack of moderating rules that we be referrin' to, matey.

Lack of kindness from certain moderators (who are always supposed to be nice to members...even if they've broken a moderation taboo). Lack of moderator action for a whole week. It doesn't add up to good moderation. If a post cannot be addressed within a 2 day time period by our current staff...perhaps it's time for new staff that CAN get to the board at least every other day, and make a call on a set of short written rules moderators must go by.
And if mods can't be nice to the ExIsle members voicing concerns whilst interacting and giving sanctions, perhaps modding isn't really for them. Perhaps it's time for a new set of moderators who will be more humble, and show a bit more humility.

It reminds me of that scene from Road House with Patrick Swayze...if somebody is drunk and rude, show them the door...just show it to 'em nicely. If they won't go out the door you show them, then help them out.... but do it nicely.
Frankly, staff has come off as being immature or spoiled-sounding after being confronted with these issues of late. Is that because the old rules were thrown out, and you're all under the protection of King LoP...who can lop off heads, and pass judgement without trial if it suits him to save his precious staff members?   :blink:
Cait's post in the last thread on this topic was the rudest thread I've ever seen a staff member write on this board. Anakem got her slowed down a bit, but that's no excuse to slam the minions because of Mars' orbit, is it? Mikoto has been "matter-of-fact', though not overly rude. Blaming Rhea for not being here to help isn't really a reason to put off moderation, in my opinion.

SO, GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME THE BOOT!

Edited by Mark, 12 June 2014 - 05:16 AM.

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#45 243Skunk

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:28 AM

If you think what has happened in this thread has been rude, its been nothing compared to some places I have posted. I have board owners call me names and troll me (unsucessfully, I might add) for suggesting older versions of parts in a firearm work better than MIM plastic coated ones. ( dont ask ).

Pretty much this place is kick back. At least from what I have experienced.

#46 Mark

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:15 AM

View Post243Skunk, on 12 June 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

If you think what has happened in this thread has been rude, its been nothing compared to some places I have posted. I have board owners call me names and troll me (unsucessfully, I might add) for suggesting older versions of parts in a firearm work better than MIM plastic coated ones. ( dont ask ).

Pretty much this place is kick back. At least from what I have experienced.

Mark: Well, there are other places' standards...then there are ExIsle standards. I like to think we set higher standards here than anywhere else.

Edited by Mark, 12 June 2014 - 05:51 AM.

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#47 Tricia

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:33 AM

http://www.exisle.ne...s/#entry1492675

EI TOS  to be found here until Orph has time to fix the link

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#48 Omega

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:27 AM

I've gotta say, being afraid to post is pointless. If this is the place that will boot you for posting perfectly reasonable things, then who cares if you get booted? What are you losing? Your perfect attendance record?

#49 Omega

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:49 AM

Just to be clear: if the staff won't back off from this bad precedent, I'm suggesting the rest of us just ignore it and post as we each deem necessary. Take what you want and pay for it. The odds of this decision having practical effect this decade are almost zero. There's a time to walk out on principle, but I don't think this is it.

My main goal here has been to convince the staff they made a mistake. I apparently can't. So I'm going to go on with life. The staff here making a bad decision doesn't mean I have to remove more enjoyment from my life by leaving.

#50 Avalon

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 08:59 AM

But the thing is, for some of us, it's not enjoyable to post in a place that penalizes you for calling out something that should be called out publicly. Or constantly deflects conversations like this as just being members picking on staff.

I've tried to leave a couple of times because I just don't enjoy being here much anymore. There's just too much ridiculousness that goes on. This is actually the only board (and I'm on quite a few) where I have people on ignore, and sadly, it's a long list. There are others I'd like to put on ignore, but can't.

I come back because of the few people I do enjoy hearing from, mostly in the Gen and Review sections. And because it's like family here, a big old dysfunctional family I've lived with since the Slipstream days. But I've found other places to visit some of those people I still enjoy. And if you want to get healthy, eventually you leave dysfunctional family behind.

#51 Themis

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:01 AM

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View PostMark, on 12 June 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

added in...I'd also hate to lose Spectacles (one of our smartest, brightest members), and yadda-yadda (another well-spoken EI member) over something like what's going on.

Indeed.  I rarely weigh in on this stuff, but everything involved in this situation is beyond ridiculous.  Staff made a mistake.  Members should be able to call a statement racist, homophobic or whatever - it's usually a valid part of the overall discussion.
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#52 Avalon

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:13 AM

^^^Yes, exactly.

#53 Tricia

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:22 AM

^^ That's the one thing that I do agree with in this situation.

Personally I also will pm the person who offended and explain to them why it was offensive.

In case, they did not realize it.

Not yelling at them.  Just explaining.  

It is up to them what they do with that....say oops, sorry or not.

But it can not be ignored within the thread/ conversation

Edited by Tricia, 12 June 2014 - 09:24 AM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#54 Mikoto

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:58 AM

View PostLover of Purple, on 11 June 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

I understand. And I hope the members can understand that I will NOT tolerate racism and would permaban a racist. So, I see the charge of racism very serious and I would like the staff to check into it before someone is called (or accused) of racism. I know it seems petty, but I have seen such accusations turn into a major battle and more than the racist gets hit. All I ask is to take it to a staff (heck, if it is racism bring it to an Admin or myself. I repeat myself..I will NOT tolerate racism.

LoP

New instructions for next time acknowledged LoP.
Rejected and gone.

#55 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 10:11 AM

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I haven't weighed in on this controversy, mostly because so much sh*t happened so quickly, that I had trouble keeping up enough to organize my thoughts into words.  (Something that normally takes me some time.)  Plus I didn't think adding one more voice to the chaos would actually help anything.

There have always been these kind of fights here on ExIsle, with differing opinions on how things should be handled, or outrage on how something was handled.  But the board is still here, and most members have stuck it out.  I always keep that in mind when I read these things, and I think of all the fun we have the rest of the time.  I trust things to blow over, and know that all the very good people here will continue to be just that, very good people.

But what hurts is the knowledge that every so often, someone is so hurt or offended during one of our epic brawls, that they leave because of it.  I have been dreading that that might be the outcome here, because this place is always less for it.

So this is my plea, to anyone considering leaving:  Please stay?  There are so many things that need to be said in the interesting discussions that happen here, and every voice matters, every varying perspective is absolutely necessary to see a complete picture.

M.E., I generally lurk in OT, always have.  It's too daunting for me to post there most of the time, but I always learn a lot from the people who post there, and someone almost always eventually posts what I am thinking, or what I didn't know I was thinking.  But I love reading and posting in reviews, GMD, the beach, and the hug threads.  I wouldn't lose that for the world.  I say, politics are always tough, but you can't go wrong posting cheerful chatter with friends.  :)  Please don't be afraid to do that.  :hugs:  (And I should take my own advice and post more often.  ;) )

Yadda, I don't know how you found this board, but I have been so glad of your interesting posts these last few months.  As I said, there is something of an old guard of members here, and over the years many have left, one at a time, either to real life issues or to arguments like these.  We don't get many new members joining, and new members as interesting, oft posting, and well spoken as you, are truly rare.  You are also one of those I mentioned above, who tends to post what I didn't know I was thinking.  I don't know where you came from, but please, don't leave?


And I say the same to everyone else.  As difficult as some of our problems are, don't let it hurt the board more by depriving us of more voices.  Everyone here has a good heart.  We can get through this.

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 12 June 2014 - 10:17 AM.

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#56 FarscapeOne

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 10:25 AM

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 12 June 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

I haven't weighed in on this controversy, mostly because so much sh*t happened so quickly, that I had trouble keeping up enough to organize my thoughts into words.  (Something that normally takes me some time.)  Plus I didn't think adding one more voice to the chaos would actually help anything.

There have always been these kind of fights here on ExIsle, with differing opinions on how things should be handled, or outrage on how something was handled.  But the board is still here, and most members have stuck it out.  I always keep that in mind when I read these things, and I think of all the fun we have the rest of the time.  I trust things to blow over, and know that all the very good people here will continue to be just that, very good people.

But what hurts is the knowledge that every so often, someone is so hurt or offended during one of our epic brawls, that they leave because of it.  I have been dreading that that might be the outcome here, because this place is always less for it.

So this is my plea, to anyone considering leaving:  Please stay?  There are so many things that need to be said in the interesting discussions that happen here, and every voice matters, every varying perspective is absolutely necessary to see a complete picture.

M.E., I generally lurk in OT, always have.  It's too daunting for me to post there most of the time, but I always learn a lot from the people who post there, and someone almost always eventually posts what I am thinking, or what I didn't know I was thinking.  But I love reading and posting in reviews, GMD, the beach, and the hug threads.  I wouldn't lose that for the world.  I say, politics are always tough, but you can't go wrong posting cheerful chatter with friends.  :)  Please don't be afraid to do that.  :hugs:  (And I should take my own advice and post more often.  ;) )

Yadda, I don't know how you found this board, but I have been so glad of your interesting posts these last few months.  As I said, there is something of an old guard of members here, and over the years many have left, one at a time, either to real life issues or to arguments like these.  We don't get many new members joining, and new members as interesting, oft posting, and well spoken as you, are truly rare.  I don't know where you came from, but please, don't leave?


And I say the same to everyone else.  As difficult as some of our problems are, don't let it hurt the board more by depriving us of more voices.  Everyone here has a good heart.  We can get through this.

SFG

I share all of these sentiments and couldn't have said it better.

And to add:  Spectacles, I have truly enjoyed reading your posts and your points of view.  I don't agree with some of them, but I think I have become better at understanding perspectives that I was never able to comprehend because of you.  I do learn a lot from you, and I would like that to continue.

Yadda:  I agree with SciFi Girl, you are very well thought and spoken.  I definitely enjoy reading your posts.

Lord of the Sword:  Just like I said when I messaged you, there are a lot of things I agree with you on.  I would hate to see you gone, as well.

In short, can't we all just... stay?

#57 Nonny

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 10:31 AM

Well said, Omega, Avalon and Sci-Fi Girl.  I briefly considered leaving the board, then decided to take advantage of an opportunity to work on my unfairness issues.  My VA clinician as well as my Inner Child are saying it's about time!  While I don't actually thank the folks who provided me with this opportunity, I will say to one in particular, at least we still have Firefly.
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#58 Anakam

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 11:10 AM

View PostOmega, on 11 June 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

Are you saying that observing that a racist statement is racist is grounds for thread booting, and will be in the future? If so, then I have to ask, why? To what benefit? Keep in mind that these discussions are public. If someone makes a racist statement, and the rest of us let it go by without comment, that's a strong public implication that we do not object to the statement. That's really not a position I'm willing to occupy, rule or no. I'll take a thread boot first.

View PostThemis, on 12 June 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

View PostMark, on 12 June 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

added in...I'd also hate to lose Spectacles (one of our smartest, brightest members), and yadda-yadda (another well-spoken EI member) over something like what's going on.

Indeed.  I rarely weigh in on this stuff, but everything involved in this situation is beyond ridiculous.  Staff made a mistake.  Members should be able to call a statement racist, homophobic or whatever - it's usually a valid part of the overall discussion.

I agree with both of these posts, especially the commentary on speaking up.  I know there are 'social justice' type pages out there where every statement is scrutinized for acceptability and there are no second chances.  EI is not this kind of place.  I have no desire to see it turn into that kind of place.  But ordinary people saying that something is racist, is sexist, is homophobic, and so on... that is part of being in a given society (no one is an island).  To try to speak up, and to feel awkward when we don't.  People in charge saying it's wrong, no matter what the context, has never been enough to change people's minds.  The words of the people being wronged have probably never been enough.  It is up to us ordinary people to speak up.  Silence in the face of sexism, homophobia, etc. is not being excellent to each other nor is it hope living again, it is doing ourselves a disservice, no matter if the venue is the seat of political power or a battered old BBS.

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(of course, in 2014 we understand that 'he' can mean 'he or she'... gotta wonder what he'd make of the last 45 years.)

View PostOmega, on 12 June 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Just to be clear: if the staff won't back off from this bad precedent, I'm suggesting the rest of us just ignore it and post as we each deem necessary. Take what you want and pay for it. The odds of this decision having practical effect this decade are almost zero. There's a time to walk out on principle, but I don't think this is it.

My main goal here has been to convince the staff they made a mistake. I apparently can't. So I'm going to go on with life. The staff here making a bad decision doesn't mean I have to remove more enjoyment from my life by leaving.

You sound like Nox, especially that first sentence, a few months before SlipstreamBBS shut down.  Yes, I just SSBBS'd this thread.  But there's a resemblance.

View PostAvalon, on 12 June 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

But the thing is, for some of us, it's not enjoyable to post in a place that penalizes you for calling out something that should be called out publicly. Or constantly deflects conversations like this as just being members picking on staff.

I've tried to leave a couple of times because I just don't enjoy being here much anymore. There's just too much ridiculousness that goes on. This is actually the only board (and I'm on quite a few) where I have people on ignore, and sadly, it's a long list. There are others I'd like to put on ignore, but can't.

I come back because of the few people I do enjoy hearing from, mostly in the Gen and Review sections. And because it's like family here, a big old dysfunctional family I've lived with since the Slipstream days. But I've found other places to visit some of those people I still enjoy. And if you want to get healthy, eventually you leave dysfunctional family behind.

Avalon!!!  I saw you around, leaving karma/reputation. :)  I've left a number of times myself, some of which have been due more to being busy and/or having other places to hang out than anything happening on EI.  I agree with your last paragraph too.

Edited by Anakam, 12 June 2014 - 11:13 AM.

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#59 Avalon

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 11:33 AM

((((Anakam)))) :)

#60 Rhea

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 11:55 AM

View PostMark, on 12 June 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

Mark: Ah, but 'tis this lack of member rules along with the lack of moderating rules that we be referrin' to, matey.

Lack of kindness from certain moderators (who are always supposed to be nice to members...even if they've broken a moderation taboo). Lack of moderator action for a whole week. It doesn't add up to good moderation. If a post cannot be addressed within a 2 day time period by our current staff...perhaps it's time for new staff that CAN get to the board at least every other day, and make a call on a set of short written rules moderators must go by.
And if mods can't be nice to the ExIsle members voicing concerns whilst interacting and giving sanctions, perhaps modding isn't really for them. Perhaps it's time for a new set of moderators who will be more humble, and show a bit more humility.

It reminds me of that scene from Road House with Patrick Swayze...if somebody is drunk and rude, show them the door...just show it to 'em nicely. If they won't go out the door you show them, then help them out.... but do it nicely.
Frankly, staff has come off as being immature or spoiled-sounding after being confronted with these issues of late. Is that because the old rules were thrown out, and you're all under the protection of King LoP...who can lop off heads, and pass judgement without trial if it suits him to save his precious staff members?   :blink:
Cait's post in the last thread on this topic was the rudest thread I've ever seen a staff member write on this board. Anakem got her slowed down a bit, but that's no excuse to slam the minions because of Mars' orbit, is it? Mikoto has been "matter-of-fact', though not overly rude. Blaming Rhea for not being here to help isn't really a reason to put off moderation, in my opinion.

SO, GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME THE BOOT!

Cait is no longer a mod. She's a librarian, making an effort to make old threads accessible but putting up links that a person can click on to go to other, similar threads. She's a staff member in name only.

King  Lop owns the board and pays the bills.

Edited by Rhea, 12 June 2014 - 11:56 AM.

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