Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

ExIsle's Rules

June 2014 Board Blowup Staff Response

54 replies to this topic

#21 EChatty

EChatty

    Lurker Extaordinaire

  • SuperMod
  • 22,747 posts

Posted 28 June 2014 - 08:41 PM

SFG is right, you can PM your concerns to staff or to other posters. talk it out, invite the maximum number of friends you're allowed.

If any member feels they're being talked about in an unfair manner in such a thread, they are free to PM someone from staff about it.

#22 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

  • Islander
  • 31,142 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 07:02 AM

So basically that problem I had trying to archive all those years ago has now become a serious problem.  I think I just figured out how to get around it without having to delete anything I would like to keep.  Of course, it involves more cooperation than a normal private conversation, but hey!  Just my bad luck that all that effort several of us put into not solving it came to this.
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#23 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 14,891 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 12:06 PM

*
POPULAR

Is a Watchdog allowed to also participate in the thread?

While I like the idea of the discussion being limited to one thread-- that was one of the four suggestions I made-- I don't like the idea of members not being able to participate.  I understand that we're all guests here in somebody else's house and that if we're asked to take off our shoes, we should do that or not come in.  However, the flip side of that is that this is also a community and that the members of that community should be able to express their opinions on any internal matters that arise, just as they do on external matters. In fact, that is even more important.

One of the most fundamental problems with the recent incident that I observed, as somebody not directly involved, is that there is a lot of antagonism between the regular members and the staff.  Mods and members should not see each other as enemies. On a small scale, I was witnessing civil disobedience against a rigid authority.  Some of the citizens were certainly acting out in extreme ways, but some members of the staff were also intransigent and showed no sign of listening to the concerns of the members. Now, some of that was eventually reversed-- after the situation had gone too far to be completely reparable, apparently-- but I don't think the content or tone of the new rules really addresses that as a fundamental issue.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#24 EChatty

EChatty

    Lurker Extaordinaire

  • SuperMod
  • 22,747 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 01:41 PM

All I can say, RJ, is that throughout the history of this board, every time a complaint thread is opened up to the public, the discussion would get drowned and stifled with snipes, complaining and accusation rather than people putting forth their opinion on why the call should be reversed. That's one reason it would take so long to either reverse or back up the decision. This way, the booted member and the moderator and/or admin if necessary, can talk about it and possibly render a decision one way or the other more quickly.

#25 Balderdash

Balderdash
  • Islander
  • 5,729 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 01:55 PM

View PostEChatty, on 29 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

All I can say, RJ, is that throughout the history of this board, every time a complaint thread is opened up to the public, the discussion would get drowned and stifled with snipes, complaining and accusation rather than people putting forth their opinion on why the call should be reversed. That's one reason it would take so long to either reverse or back up the decision. This way, the booted member and the moderator and/or admin if necessary, can talk about it and possibly render a decision one way or the other more quickly.

Or the member can be shut down more easily.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#26 yadda yadda

yadda yadda
  • Islander
  • 1,503 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:53 PM

View PostEChatty, on 29 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

All I can say, RJ, is that throughout the history of this board, every time a complaint thread is opened up to the public, the discussion would get drowned and stifled with snipes, complaining and accusation rather than people putting forth their opinion on why the call should be reversed. That's one reason it would take so long to either reverse or back up the decision. This way, the booted member and the moderator and/or admin if necessary, can talk about it and possibly render a decision one way or the other more quickly.

  I can't speak to the history of the board. My stay here hasn't been all that long. From the recent history I have observed I can say that it appears that staff here has a hard time distinguishing any difference between "snipes", "complaining", "vilification",  "accusation" and putting forth opinion. The comments from staff during this recent fiasco would seem to indicate a very thin-skinned and defensive  "us vs. them" mindset, with very little respect or regard for membership's concerns or opinions. RJ Diogenes wisely points out above as an uninvolved neutral observer "...that there is a lot of antagonism between the regular members and staff". He also notes that "some of the citizens were certainly acting out in extreme ways, but some members of the staff were intransigent and showed no sign of listening to the concerns of the members" Does it not stand to reason, not that reason is necessarily a standard here, that members with concerns ignored and unanswered are going to experience increased frustration leading some to sniping and complaining? Is that not a function of human nature, in this case likely catalyzed by staff intransigence and apparent unconcern? Wouldn't that issue be something appropriate and valuable to kick around in the SL discussions on how to more effectively moderate and keep member unrest and frustration to a minimum rather than a roaring firestorm, at least as much as the brainpower invested in constructing a more constricting framework of rules to tamp down free speech and opinion? Are there any mirrors in the SL?

And one other thing I can't quite wrap my mind around, why would the sniping and complaining and "accusation" (the loaded term containing so many connotations here  :smirk: ), as opposed to "putting forth opinions" so delay the process of rendering a decision? It's not like staff deigns to consider the sniping and complaining anyway, so how does that cost them time? Is it like a group hand-wringing, rending of garments, and gnashing of teeth  session up there from the "sniping" and "complaining" that distracts from the group consideration of the real issues and keeps the decision clock from marching on? In case this post is considered as vilifying or bad form I shall make it my last here. Here's hoping Raeven and Omega can help to remedy or ameliorate the cliquishness and swollen sense of self importance of the staff. The membership truly deserves better.

yadda out---

#27 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 03:37 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 29 June 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Is a Watchdog allowed to also participate in the thread?

While I like the idea of the discussion being limited to one thread-- that was one of the four suggestions I made-- I don't like the idea of members not being able to participate.  I understand that we're all guests here in somebody else's house and that if we're asked to take off our shoes, we should do that or not come in.  However, the flip side of that is that this is also a community and that the members of that community should be able to express their opinions on any internal matters that arise, just as they do on external matters. In fact, that is even more important.

Most message boards I have been a member of...people have not had the opportunities we have here to weigh in on these matters. At all.  And sanctions and appeals were completely behind the scenes.  

No discussion of those issues on those other boards. Period.

So being able to witness an appeal discussion is better than it all being behind the scenes.

I have often compared these open-to-all appeal threads to too many cooks in the kitchen.  Loud and messy and usually ending up with a lot of toes getting stepped on and feelings hurt because of too many opinions voiced rather strongly

SFG gave up with a good solution IMO.

BTW I am sure it would not be difficult to include a WD in the appeal thread.  Especially if a WD is asked for.  

Which reminds me...with everyone so concerned that things were or were not handled in a timely manner and whether staff was being fair.....I saw NO ONE ask for the WDs to weigh in.

Edited by Tricia, 29 June 2014 - 07:38 PM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#28 Omega

Omega

    Maktel shcree lotak meta setak Oz!

  • Moderator
  • 4,036 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 07:04 PM

View PostEChatty, on 29 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

All I can say, RJ, is that throughout the history of this board, every time a complaint thread is opened up to the public, the discussion would get drowned and stifled with snipes, complaining and accusation rather than people putting forth their opinion on why the call should be reversed. That's one reason it would take so long to either reverse or back up the decision. This way, the booted member and the moderator and/or admin if necessary, can talk about it and possibly render a decision one way or the other more quickly.

I see this as being akin to a court hearing. There are some formal procedures, the aggrieved party gets to make their case, the judges ask questions, there are higher judges to appeal to. But in court, it's never the case that any interested party can participate. The wide-open informal process sounds nice, but clearly has some serious problems here. Trying something else makes sense. If it doesn't work, we'll try something yet else.

#29 Omega

Omega

    Maktel shcree lotak meta setak Oz!

  • Moderator
  • 4,036 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 07:06 PM

View PostBalderdash, on 29 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

View PostEChatty, on 29 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

All I can say, RJ, is that throughout the history of this board, every time a complaint thread is opened up to the public, the discussion would get drowned and stifled with snipes, complaining and accusation rather than people putting forth their opinion on why the call should be reversed. That's one reason it would take so long to either reverse or back up the decision. This way, the booted member and the moderator and/or admin if necessary, can talk about it and possibly render a decision one way or the other more quickly.

Or the member can be shut down more easily.

I think that's unjustified fear. I think we all know that the staff (which I suppose includes me today) could just any of us up entirely, at any time, without the slightest trouble. Bans like that only come after extreme and lengthy provocation.

I'm not going to say the staff hasn't been unfortunately unresponsive at times. We all know that's the case. But actively shutting down a complaining member? I don't think that's happened, to my recollection.

#30 Omega

Omega

    Maktel shcree lotak meta setak Oz!

  • Moderator
  • 4,036 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 07:16 PM

View Postyadda yadda, on 29 June 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Here's hoping Raeven and Omega can help to remedy or ameliorate the cliquishness and swollen sense of self importance of the staff. The membership truly deserves better.

yadda out---

I don't think I'd describe anyone here as having a "swollen sense of self importance". Shoot, if anyone around here has an inflated ego, it's me. I'd say more that the staff feels unappreciated. Everyone honestly tries to make this place better. It's just that we fail. We must. It's impossible to make a community optimal for everyone at the same time, especially with real-life constraints on all our time. But nobody likes having their failures pointed out, then jumped up and down upon repeatedly. :)

#31 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 07:35 PM

Forgot to say earlier--

Thank you for finally getting the current GLs (which are listed in the OP) linked at the proper place...bottom right hand of the page under Board GLs. :)

Now there can be no confusion.

Edited by Tricia, 29 June 2014 - 07:36 PM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#32 Elara

Elara

    Feel the silence of the moonlight.

  • Watchdog
  • 2,908 posts

Posted 29 June 2014 - 08:47 PM

People have real concerns about this set up, and that is understandable, but you have it failing and going all kinds of wrong before you've even given it a chance. As Omega said, if it doesn't work, then the Staff can once again go back to the drawing board.
Just try it for awhile, wait until the kinks get worked out, before you completely shoot it down.
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#33 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 14,891 posts

Posted 01 July 2014 - 06:00 PM

View PostEChatty, on 29 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

All I can say, RJ, is that throughout the history of this board, every time a complaint thread is opened up to the public, the discussion would get drowned and stifled with snipes, complaining and accusation rather than people putting forth their opinion on why the call should be reversed. That's one reason it would take so long to either reverse or back up the decision. This way, the booted member and the moderator and/or admin if necessary, can talk about it and possibly render a decision one way or the other more quickly.  
In all the time I've been here, I've found this to be a nice place full of nice people-- if there is some kind of historical grudge between the staff and the members, shouldn't that be addressed directly, rather than just trying to manage it with rules?

View PostTricia, on 29 June 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Most message boards I have been a member of...people have not had the opportunities we have here to weigh in on these matters. At all.  And sanctions and appeals were completely behind the scenes.  
The most contentious board that I have Modded for is TrekBBS, and they have a forum where members can open discussion threads on Mod or Admin actions (after they have first discussed it with the Mod or Admin involved). Especially in a case like this one, where multiple members are effected directly and issues were raised that effected the entire membership, I don't think these restrictions are helpful.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#34 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 01 July 2014 - 07:15 PM

I was not advocating not addressing those issues.

Only stating that not all message boards are not like this one in the way these issues are handled. So openly discussed, I mean.  Sometimes too many opinions in the mix can be just as damaging as those options to express them being restricted.  Because  not everyone will end up pleased with the results.  

Maybe I should just shut up now because I probably am not expressing myself well.  

The difference a year makes.... :(

Edited by Tricia, 01 July 2014 - 07:18 PM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#35 Balderdash

Balderdash
  • Islander
  • 5,729 posts

Posted 01 July 2014 - 07:31 PM

View PostOmega, on 29 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

View PostBalderdash, on 29 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

View PostEChatty, on 29 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

All I can say, RJ, is that throughout the history of this board, every time a complaint thread is opened up to the public, the discussion would get drowned and stifled with snipes, complaining and accusation rather than people putting forth their opinion on why the call should be reversed. That's one reason it would take so long to either reverse or back up the decision. This way, the booted member and the moderator and/or admin if necessary, can talk about it and possibly render a decision one way or the other more quickly.

Or the member can be shut down more easily.

I think that's unjustified fear. I think we all know that the staff (which I suppose includes me today) could just any of us up entirely, at any time, without the slightest trouble. Bans like that only come after extreme and lengthy provocation.

I'm not going to say the staff hasn't been unfortunately unresponsive at times. We all know that's the case. But actively shutting down a complaining member? I don't think that's happened, to my recollection.

After things that were said by Cait and Mikoto I don't have a lot of faith that staff cares at all about members so my fear is justified.  I'm not going to rehash it all, we all read it.  I suppose that I could put on my asbestos undies and once more into the breach but I'm really kind of 'meh' over it all.  Don't get me wrong I'm glad that Nonny's thread boot was rescinded but it should have been, it never should have happened.  And we members are still being portrayed as whiners, complainers and other adjectives of similar bent, we all saw a problem and tried to bring it to the attention of Staff and it's offensive to me to be called a whiner by the very Staff  that moderates the board.  

I trust and like you Omega you have proven yourself a person who can not just listen but you actively try to hear and that's a good thing.   :)

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#36 Mixxster

Mixxster
  • Just Washed Ashore
  • 46 posts

Posted 02 July 2014 - 02:41 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 01 July 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

The most contentious board that I have Modded for is TrekBBS, and they have a forum where members can open discussion threads on Mod or Admin actions (after they have first discussed it with the Mod or Admin involved). Especially in a case like this one, where multiple members are effected directly and issues were raised that effected the entire membership, I don't think these restrictions are helpful.

I totally agree. As you said earlier, if you put up a public forum you're inviting people to join. Yes, there are rules to be followed. That said, restricting them from voicing their concerns about operations, especially regarding an issue like the latest one, seems far from constructive. And what if the poster in question isn't able to articulate their defense as well as others? What if they're less than assertive? Should those posters have less of a chance at reversal, even if justified, than someone who is more forceful and/or better at expressing themselves?  

View PostBalderdash, on 01 July 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong I'm glad that Nonny's thread boot was rescinded but it should have been, it never should have happened.

Yes, and it should have been unnecssary to protest that boot so long and so vigorously but that brings us to this...

View PostBalderdash, on 01 July 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

And we members are still being portrayed as whiners, complainers and other adjectives of similar bent, we all saw a problem and tried to bring it to the attention of Staff and it's offensive to me to be called a whiner by the very Staff  that moderates the board.

Members continued to protest precisely because their arguments and logic were being dismissed. Had staff been willing to objectively review the decision in the beginning instead of sniping and ignoring member concerns, it probably would not have seemed that members were such whiners.

#37 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:29 PM

I understand and respect LoP's decision but would like to offer an idea..

How about a compromise?

An appeal thread where all members can voice their concerns and opinions but with a time limit on it.  

Say, 72 hours?  And then the thread is locked. You can get a lot of posts in that amount of time. It's 3 days. At the end of that time, lock the thread and the admins and LoP can address the situation and render a decision within another 72 hours. ....or at least within the allotted previously mentioned 5days.  

This way, the members get to weigh in too. The thread would not ramble on in circles for days and everyone who wishes to express their concerns would get their chance.  Within that time period.

Just an idea and probably no one will like it but it's just an idea that would seem to be a compromise.

It's sort of like what RJ was talking about IMHO

Edited by Tricia, 02 July 2014 - 03:52 PM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#38 Balderdash

Balderdash
  • Islander
  • 5,729 posts

Posted 02 July 2014 - 04:11 PM

View PostTricia, on 02 July 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

I understand and respect LoP's decision but would like to offer an idea..

How about a compromise?

An appeal thread where all members can voice their concerns and opinions but with a time limit on it.  

Say, 72 hours?  And then the thread is locked. You can get a lot of posts in that amount of time. It's 3 days. At the end of that time, lock the thread and the admins and LoP can address the situation and render a decision within another 72 hours. ....or at least within the allotted previously mentioned 5days.  

This way, the members get to weigh in too. The thread would not ramble on in circles for days and everyone who wishes to express their concerns would get their chance.  Within that time period.

Just an idea and probably no one will like it but it's just an idea that would seem to be a compromise.

It's sort of like what RJ was talking about IMHO

That's better than nothing, I'll take it.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#39 Tricia

Tricia

    To err on the side of kindness is seldom an error.

  • Islander
  • 10,245 posts

Posted 02 July 2014 - 04:25 PM

I can only make the suggestion  but if more needs to be done  a thread?,,,a vote to have it considered, then maybe we can go that extra step?

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#40 Sci-Fi Girl

Sci-Fi Girl

    Help me save Dark Matter!

  • Islander
  • 5,085 posts

Posted 02 July 2014 - 06:44 PM

For posterity, and for anyone who is reading the new rules but missed the events that led to them, I have tagged the relevant threads.  Events were spread across quite a few.  Here are the tags:

June 2014 Board Blowup  (All the related threads that I could tag)
The Argument Portion of those
and the Staff Response portion of those.

There is one vital thread missing from those tags though, I could not tag it as it was locked.  Here it is, as it also contains LoP's official ruling:

Mark shouldn't have got booted from 2 threads, for comments in one


I hope this helps someone.  :)

SFG
"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

Posted Image   Posted Image


Check out my music threads:

Beautiful Music: Folk, Acoustic, Traditional, and World

A Celebration of Song Lyrics, New and Old: Just the poetry  (to include those with different musical tastes than me)

When Sci Fi Actors Sing



Reply to this topic



  

Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: June 2014 Board Blowup, Staff Response

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users