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June 2014 Board Blowup Staff Response

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#41 RJDiogenes

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:33 PM

View PostTricia, on 01 July 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

I was not advocating not addressing those issues.  
I know. I was just saying that the new rules don't address that. At least not the way I interpret them.

View PostMixxster, on 02 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

And what if the poster in question isn't able to articulate their defense as well as others? What if they're less than assertive?
This is a very good point, too.  The participation of the Watchdogs could be useful here, but the member could also ask for a specific advocate.

View PostTricia, on 02 July 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Say, 72 hours?  And then the thread is locked. You can get a lot of posts in that amount of time. It's 3 days. At the end of that time, lock the thread and the admins and LoP can address the situation and render a decision within another 72 hours. ....or at least within the allotted previously mentioned 5days.  
That's a good idea.  There should be some flexibility to allow for vacations or other issues, but a time limit is wise to prevent things from going around in circles forever.
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#42 Elara

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 07:48 PM

View PostMixxster, on 02 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I totally agree. As you said earlier, if you put up a public forum you're inviting people to join. Yes, there are rules to be followed. That said, restricting them from voicing their concerns about operations, especially regarding an issue like the latest one, seems far from constructive. And what if the poster in question isn't able to articulate their defense as well as others? What if they're less than assertive? Should those posters have less of a chance at reversal, even if justified, than someone who is more forceful and/or better at expressing themselves?

True, but for anyone that can't express themselves, or needs any kind of help, they could ask a friend for help, or anyone could PM them and offer suggestions. No one would be alone. Then there is the flip side, what if a person does not want people to help? What if they just want their voice heard, but others are helping? As kind as that help may be, what if it is drowning out the one that is actually involved?
Not really disagreeing, Mixx, just seeing things from all sides.
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#43 Balderdash

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 10:22 PM

View PostElara, on 03 July 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

View PostMixxster, on 02 July 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I totally agree. As you said earlier, if you put up a public forum you're inviting people to join. Yes, there are rules to be followed. That said, restricting them from voicing their concerns about operations, especially regarding an issue like the latest one, seems far from constructive. And what if the poster in question isn't able to articulate their defense as well as others? What if they're less than assertive? Should those posters have less of a chance at reversal, even if justified, than someone who is more forceful and/or better at expressing themselves?

True, but for anyone that can't express themselves, or needs any kind of help, they could ask a friend for help, or anyone could PM them and offer suggestions. No one would be alone. Then there is the flip side, what if a person does not want people to help? What if they just want their voice heard, but others are helping? As kind as that help may be, what if it is drowning out the one that is actually involved?
Not really disagreeing, Mixx, just seeing things from all sides.

Or what if the membership want to be heard on an issue like racism and it's not just about a member having a run-in with the law?

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#44 Elara

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 02:00 AM

View PostBalderdash, on 03 July 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

Or what if the membership want to be heard on an issue like racism and it's not just about a member having a run-in with the law?

That's just it, in this way LotS (sorry, but you work for my example) would have made his comment, got booted, then came in here to put up a thread contesting the boot. In the way he used the word "boy", the staff would rule against him and the issue would be closed. Racism is fairly cut and dry. Everyone might be upset by the fact that someone posted something racist, but an obvious rule break like that is not really a time for a discussion.
If someone wants to discuss racism, an article could be found and posted in OT, then we could all discuss it. Something like Par's homophobic thread so many years ago.

Now Nonny's boot was different, but that really wasn't about racism, that was a misunderstanding of what she posted. In that instance, if Nonny felt she needed help, she could contact any one of us for assistance.

Which makes me think that another idea is, if a person is really uncomfortable, then perhaps LoP could amend this and allow a member to choose someone to speak for them in the thread.

As I said before, it seems like this is an idea that should at least be given a try. If it fails, it fails, but the way it is now sure isn't good for any of us.
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#45 Tricia

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 10:08 AM

I am not sure that there really is any way of handling appeals that doesn't lead to upset feelings and anger.

All we can do is try this way...and if it doesn't work, try something else.

I can personally think of at least three different tweaks on appeals that I can remember in recent years...and all had their problems. But you never know what will work...or not....until we all see it in practice.

I will admit that personally I would choose to appeal for myself in PM, not on the board.

Edited by Tricia, 04 July 2014 - 10:11 AM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


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Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#46 Mixxster

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 12:38 PM

View PostElara, on 03 July 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

True, but for anyone that can't express themselves, or needs any kind of help, they could ask a friend for help, or anyone could PM them and offer suggestions. No one would be alone. Then there is the flip side, what if a person does not want people to help? What if they just want their voice heard, but others are helping? As kind as that help may be, what if it is drowning out the one that is actually involved?
Not really disagreeing, Mixx, just seeing things from all sides.

Elara, I appreciate your even-handedness in viewing the problem. Personally, as I said earlier, I think members should be able to express themselves regarding these types of situations. In fact, the members had basically moderated the problem quite well themselves. The boots were a solution in search of a problem and, in fact, caused a problem rather than solving one. Obviously, it would have been different had the debate still been raging but It was over.

I know you disagree but as far as the new rules, I think transparency and open participation are preferable. That's JMHO, of course.

#47 Balderdash

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 01:09 PM

View PostMixxster, on 04 July 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

View PostElara, on 03 July 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

True, but for anyone that can't express themselves, or needs any kind of help, they could ask a friend for help, or anyone could PM them and offer suggestions. No one would be alone. Then there is the flip side, what if a person does not want people to help? What if they just want their voice heard, but others are helping? As kind as that help may be, what if it is drowning out the one that is actually involved?
Not really disagreeing, Mixx, just seeing things from all sides.

Elara, I appreciate your even-handedness in viewing the problem. Personally, as I said earlier, I think members should be able to express themselves regarding these types of situations. In fact, the members had basically moderated the problem quite well themselves. The boots were a solution in search of a problem and, in fact, caused a problem rather than solving one. Obviously, it would have been different had the debate still been raging but It was over.

I know you disagree but as far as the new rules, I think transparency and open participation are preferable. That's JMHO, of course.

This.  And thanks Mixx for expressing it so artfully.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#48 Elara

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 01:59 PM

View PostMixxster, on 04 July 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Elara, I appreciate your even-handedness in viewing the problem. Personally, as I said earlier, I think members should be able to express themselves regarding these types of situations. In fact, the members had basically moderated the problem quite well themselves. The boots were a solution in search of a problem and, in fact, caused a problem rather than solving one. Obviously, it would have been different had the debate still been raging but It was over.

I know you disagree but as far as the new rules, I think transparency and open participation are preferable. That's JMHO, of course.

Thanks, Mixx. And I appreciate how you state your view.

Totally agree, in this case the time issue was a problem. In hind sight, perhaps a better way to have dealt with it would have been for Staff to post a reply saying that "due to misunderstandings, LotS' post was left too long. This is to say that the misunderstandings have been sorted and next time something similar is said, that person will be booted." I think that could have been acceptable, and wouldn't have caused an issue. Plus, it would have dealt with the "You didn't do anything to so and so when they did the same thing" problem.

As for transparency, completely agreed. That is why I'd prefer to see any issue dealt with on the board, in IC, where everyone can read. That way there is no possibility of anyone tweaking their view of what was said. This protects both Membership and Staff.

Open participation... I don't disagree (heck, I've joined in many times, obviously. :D  ), but I just think this is something that should be tried. It may fail miserably, or it may succeed, we won't know unless we give it a chance. If it fails, I will personally post a thread *apologizing. :)

* has to be a clear case of failure, not just someone upset because they didn't get their way. (Hey, I can't be apologizing for just anything. :lol:  )
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#49 Mixxster

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 05:32 PM

Thanks, Baldy.


Elara, I guess it depends on the meaning of the word "failure", right?  :lol:

#50 RJDiogenes

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 05:35 PM

Ironically, this thread is demonstrating how an open discussion can be civil and respectful.  :lol:
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#51 Tricia

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 06:10 PM

Perhaps more telling is the fact that there are not that many people in the conversation currently
;)

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.


#52 Elara

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 01:17 AM

View PostMixxster, on 04 July 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

Elara, I guess it depends on the meaning of the word "failure", right?  :lol:

:eek2:  ~Reba Hart~ Cra-a-ap! ~/Reba Hart~ :lol:
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#53 RJDiogenes

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 04:35 PM

View PostTricia, on 04 July 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Perhaps more telling is the fact that there are not that many people in the conversation currently
;)
Touche.  :lol:
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#54 Balderdash

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:58 AM

View PostTricia, on 04 July 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Perhaps more telling is the fact that there are not that many people in the conversation currently
;)

Yeah, because we've given up and that's just how this board likes it.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC


#55 Tricia

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 06:55 AM

The matter has been settled.

Or at least the ones that most members were posting about.  The thread boots.

This thread is LoP's new rules...which except for a few tweaks are the same basic rules, some restated more forcefully than previously.


Not a whole lot to comment on except those tweaks...which look a lot like a slight variation on things that have been attempted before.  

Maybe it will work in this new form...maybe it won't. But we won't know until someone gets booted and it took a LONG time for this batch of boots and appeals to occur.  Might be another long wait to see.  :)

We've got new/old mods whose style of moderation should be familiar to us who frequent OT.  

And thanks again to Omega and Cait for stepping up once again.

Now I am out  of this thread.  Not much more I can say on the subject and I am going to enjoy what is left of the holiday.

Edited by Tricia, 06 July 2014 - 07:27 AM.

In true dialogue, both sides are willing to change. --Thich Nhat Hanh


You don't need to attend every argument you are invited to


Do not ask that your kids live up to your expectations.  Let your kids be who they are, and your expectations will be in breathless pursuit.




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