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Doctor Who: Listen


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#1 DWF

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 07:55 AM

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The Doctor, Clara and Danny travel to the end of the universe where they encounter ghosts from the past, present and future,

Edited by DWF, 13 September 2014 - 02:15 PM.

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#2 NeuralClone

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 08:03 PM

Wow. This episode was absolutely incredible. I didn't think there would ever be an episode that would top the two parter with the Family but I think this one did it. Very, very good.
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#3 DWF

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 09:16 PM

The ep. was abit of a mess for me, there's no way Clara could've gotten to Gallifrey but then it should have been just as impossible in The Name Of The Doctor as well. Much of the stoty is left unexplained, but I guess if hte moral is that it's OK to be afraid then I it worked at some level. And I'm not enitrely sure about them messing with Danny's past.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

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#4 NeuralClone

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 09:34 PM

How is it that Clara couldn't have gotten to Gallifrey? We know that Gallifrey was saved and not actually destroyed in the Time War. We know this from the 50th anniversary episode and from the Christmas special. Gallifrey is back and out there somewhere. We also know that Clara's role in the Doctor's life is to repeatedly save him from harm. It made perfect sense that she would be able to get to Gallifrey and help him. Talking to him and reassuring him when he was a child likely helped shape him into the man he is. This time it was more of a metaphorical saving. She saved him from his fear.

I think leaving unanswered questions is what made this such a strong episode for me. Keeping what was under the covers a mystery is what made it scary. If they had revealed what was there, it wouldn't have mattered what they showed. It would have been disappointing and not particularly scary.

Thematically, this episode is hardly a mess at all. There's a clear message about drawing strength from facing your fears and that you don't have to do so alone. The story itself was an unsual one for this show but I thought it worked really well.

Edited by NeuralClone, 13 September 2014 - 09:37 PM.

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#5 DWF

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 09:47 PM

Gallifrey is time locked, if it was that easy to get there I'm sure the Doctor would've found it already. And it certainly felt like a mess to me, but then as long as Moffat's been in cahrge changing the past is no big thing anymore. And for that matter if the Doctor was being sucked out by the open door how could Orson save him without the vacuum affecting him as well.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#6 NeuralClone

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 09:54 PM

View PostDWF, on 13 September 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Gallifrey is time locked, if it was that easy to get there I'm sure the Doctor would've found it already.
No it's not. The cracks in space and time have completely changed things. The episode made it very clear that the TARDIS was following Clara's thoughts and feelings. She wanted to save the Doctor and the TARDIS brought her to where the dream started. Clara was the source of the Doctor's dream and at the same time she saved him from his fear. Or have you forgotten that Clara is in every point in the Doctor's past and future? The TARDIS flew Clara there based on her instincts. It's probably not possible to fly back there without her having that exact same fear and desire to save the Doctor. Her helping the Doctor at that point in time is probably a fixed point in time and space.

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And it certainly felt like a mess to me, but then as long as Moffat's been in cahrge changing the past is no big thing anymore.
You do know this is a time travel show, right? Changing the past and the future is kind of the entire point of the premise. Every single time the Doctor steps in to save Earth or some other planet or group of people, he's changing things. This was the case in the classic series, when RTD was in charge, and it's the case now.

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And for that matter if the Doctor was being sucked out by the open door how could Orson save him without the vacuum affecting him as well.
Gravity boots? The spacesuit he was wearing? He was from 100 years in the future after all. No explanation was necessary. The episode showed us what we needed to know and the rest can be easily explained.

Edited by NeuralClone, 13 September 2014 - 10:04 PM.

"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#7 DWF

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 10:06 PM

View PostNeuralClone, on 13 September 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

View PostDWF, on 13 September 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Gallifrey is time locked, if it was that easy to get there I'm sure the Doctor would've found it already.
No it's not. The cracks in space and time have completely changed things. The episode made it very clear that the TARDIS was following Clara's thoughts and feelings. She wanted to save the Doctor and the TARDIS brought her to where the dream started. Clara was the source of the Doctor's dream and at the same time she saved him from his fear. Or have you forgotten that Clara is in every point in the Doctor's past and future?

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And it certainly felt like a mess to me, but then as long as Moffat's been in cahrge changing the past is no big thing anymore.
You do know this is a time travel show, right? Changing the past and the future is kind of the entire point of the premise. Every single time the Doctor steps in to save Earth or some other planet or group of people, he's changing things.

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And for that matter if the Doctor was being sucked out by the open door how could Orson save him without the vacuum affecting him as well.
Gravity boots? The spacesuit he was wearing? He was from 100 years in the future after all. No explanation was necessary. The episode showed us what we needed to know and the rest can be easily explained.

We saw in Father's Day the effects of messing with time and yes Gallifrey is not only in it's own pocket universe but it's time locked as well, maybe you should see The Day Of The Doctor again. The Time Lords opened those craks but closed them again. And as for changing time, think about this, the Doctor didn't die on Trenzalore, so did she really go though the Dcotor's lives and save him? And we know that she only saw 11 Doctors including the War Doctor, it was Clara who convinced the Time Lords to save the Doctor and give him more lives.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#8 Cardie

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 10:27 PM

I think the shape under the cover had to be one of the other kids playing a prank. When the Doctor was a child he had a real experience of something/one under his bed grabbing his ankle. From this formative experience he became obsessed with the idea of there being a perfect hiding race that shadows each of us. In fact, the Doctor was making all the uncanny things happen himself.

The episode was incredibly atmospheric and benefited from a complete lack of frantic running around or silly monsters. (The ones we imagine are always far scarier than the ones we see.) Moffat certainly loves this idea of time travelers shadowing people from childhood to adulthood. I find it just a bit stalkerish but he uses the trope whenever he can.

Looks like a marriage between Danny and Clara is inevitable.
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#9 FarscapeOne

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 11:29 PM

LOVED this episode!  The mood and atmosphere were perfect.

The obvious answer is Clara and Danny end up married.  I don't know if that is true.  It does point to that happening, yes, but Clara was able to redirect the TARDIS to The Doctor's childhood, and they obviously are not together.  Danny is someone who is on her mind now, so it makes sense that the TARDIS took them to his descendants just by association.

I am puzzled that the TARDIS was able to go to Gallifrey at all, since the planet has been time-locked.  The only other explanation I can think of is maybe at that time, he was offworld somewhere.  An outpost or colony.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 13 September 2014 - 11:30 PM.


#10 NeuralClone

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 12:08 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 13 September 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

It does point to that happening, yes, but Clara was able to redirect the TARDIS to The Doctor's childhood, and they obviously are not together.
She was able to redirect the TARDIS to the Doctor's childhood because she had him on her mind at the time. She wanted to save them all, and the Doctor especially.

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I am puzzled that the TARDIS was able to go to Gallifrey at all, since the planet has been time-locked.  The only other explanation I can think of is maybe at that time, he was offworld somewhere.  An outpost or colony.
I'm pretty sure he was on Gallifrey when he debated using the Moment, and the barn in this episode was the same barn he returned to at the end of the Time War. I don't recall if they ever state directly where the barn was located, though. So I suppose it could be some sort of outpost.

Edited by NeuralClone, 14 September 2014 - 12:14 AM.

"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#11 FarscapeOne

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 01:54 AM

Neural Clone, that was what I was saying when I said about Clara.  Maybe my post wasn't clear enough.

The Moment couldn't be on Gallifrey when he used it.  He took it out from that vault and was in some desert.  It also couldn't be on Gallifrey because when it was used, wouldn't it be enveloped with Gallifrey, too?  Along with The Doctor?

#12 NeuralClone

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 06:28 AM

I got the impression that he was willing to sacrifice himself to end everything.
"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#13 DWF

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 06:29 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 14 September 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

Neural Clone, that was what I was saying when I said about Clara.  Maybe my post wasn't clear enough.

The Moment couldn't be on Gallifrey when he used it.  He took it out from that vault and was in some desert.  It also couldn't be on Gallifrey because when it was used, wouldn't it be enveloped with Gallifrey, too?  Along with The Doctor?

The barn in the desert is the same one in this ep. that we saw in The Day Of The Doctor, but as we saw in The Day Of The Doctor the barn is in the middle of nowhere. Teh thing is though if it's possible to travel to Gallifrey in the past the Daleks could also go there and destroy the planet.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#14 RJDiogenes

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 05:09 PM

I'm happy to come here and see all the positive responses to this episode.  It really blew me away (moreso because I had one of those dreams just two nights ago).  But this story just hit the mark on all levels, from the opening soliloquy, to the disastrous dating, to the hide-behind-the-couch sequence in the boarding house, to the Doctor's surreal commentaries, to the identity of the astronaut figure, to that final amazing scene with Clara and the child Doctor. I commented last week on the irony of Clara being the boss of the Doctor now that he's an old man, but I never anticipated a turnaround like this. She was right there with him when he was literally a child. And then: "I don't take orders." "Do as your told." The words you speak into a child's ear can determine how the universe unfolds. This was one of the best episodes ever.
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#15 DWF

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 09:43 PM

The notion that it was all a figmant of the Doctor's imagination id a bit much let alone that the revelation came from Clara, And although Sarah Jane said once that the Doctor talks to himself becasue he's the only one who can understand him, it is more htan alittle odd that the ep. starts out with the Doctor trying to prove his theory to himself, if Clara were a normal ongoing companion she'd already be there.

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The thing about the new show's near obsession with changing the past is that it means there's no real consequences for their actions. Clara was able to fix the problem with her date only to create a new problem, it's as if she didn't really learn anything, but she was given a second chance none the less, But then two weeks ago the Doctor had to learn the consequences of his actions even without the benefit of time travel or his 2000 years of aquired learning. Strangely enough I felt Doctors on the old series had a greater understanding of wisdom then the newer Doctors have been showing over the years.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#16 NeuralClone

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 12:57 AM

The episode intentionally cast doubt on the Doctor's theory and at the same time gave it credibility. There was something there. Leaving it ambiguous is what helped make the episode so effective.
"My sexuality's not the most interesting thing about me."
— Cosima Niehaus, Orphan Black, "Governed By Sound Reason and True Religion"

#17 DWF

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 04:36 AM

Not acoording to Clara, in her eyes it was always the Doctor.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#18 Luciferian

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 05:19 AM

Ive actually heard a rumour that the child in the bed could actually have been The Master as a child, because didn't they both run away frightened by the Schism?

also the thing with the First Doctor saying that you cant rewrite history, then the Ninth Doctor saying Time is in flux, is explained with the whole fixed points in time but events around it can be changed. The Doctor (as well as Captain Jack) is himself a fixed point in time, he cant go back over his own timeline or shouldn't anyway.

Also its the Time War itself that's timelocked

#19 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 08:23 AM

Wowee!  That was amazing! :clap:


Here's an interesting thought: The Doctor is not supposed to cross his own timeline, but some idiot turned the safeties off!!! :lol:  

SFG ;)

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 15 September 2014 - 09:44 AM.

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#20 Virgil Vox

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 10:34 AM

I loved this episode. The mood and atmosphere were just so amazing. I loved the scene where Clara and Danny were under the bed and then someone sat down on it. That entire sequence was amazing.

I haven't been the biggest Clara fan but she has grown on me a lot over these past few episodes. I hope she stays around for a while. Her dinner with Danny (both of them) were just so awkwardly funny and sad. I hope she does end up with Danny in the end. They make a cute couple.

I like that it was kept ambiguous about whether there really was a species that had perfected hiding or not. It made everything scarier keeping it vague. Sure it could all be in the Doctor's imagination since Clara was the one who grabbed his leg but there could still be something there. Her speech to the Doctor was so great. Just like it was when the Doctor gave it to young Danny.

It didn't bother me that Clara ended up on Gallifrey. We've all ready been shown that she exists all throughout the Doctor's timeline and has been there for the important moments. Sure maybe she shouldn't have been able to get onto Gallifrey but do we even know for sure that that was Gallifrey?
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