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Once Upon A Time: The Snow Queen

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#21 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:23 AM

View PostCardie, on 15 November 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

I would judge Roland to be between 3 and 5 when he first appears. I think it is several years between David meeting Anna and becoming the replacement for James.

As to how SQ could enact a memory wipe, Grandpabbie did it to make the whole realm forget that Ingrid and iced sister had ever existed, so it's magic fairly easily available in Arendelle.

I was just thinking even his current age could be a good guide, as the kid is a year older, and there was a 1 year time-jump between when we first got introduce to him and this season. He was carried last year, I don't see that happening anymore ;) Most people don't carry five year olds for any length of time. Some men might pick them up in play, but generally not for carrying for any length of time.
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Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
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Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#22 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:52 AM

I asked Keb about what we were puzzling over, and she answered with her timeline observations. You can see her answer in the discussion link I posted on the previous page.

(I can't link right now, on a mobile, but I will add the link again when I can. :) )

I think her answer provides some clarity. :cool:

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 15 November 2014 - 10:55 AM.

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#23 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:55 AM

View PostDWF, on 15 November 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 15 November 2014 - 01:25 AM, said:

Quote

quasi-step-grandfather (Hook).

Oh, that only just sunk in.  :oh:  Can Hook be step-father and step-grandfather at the same time?  :freakoutnonny:

SFG

Hook didn't marry Neal mother hence the quasi. And Henry will probably be spending alot of time with Archie when he gets older. :D

I consider Hook's and Milah's relationship to be more real than Regina's and Snow's father. The latter may have been legal, but there was no love there. On either side I think. Snow's father appear to just want a mother/womanly example for his kid. Don't think it turned out so great ;) He may have cared for Regina, but in a more platonic fashion, he was obviously still in love with his dead wife. And it seems Hook spent a good deal of quality time with his quasi-step-son Baelfire in Neverland ;)

Edited by sierraleone, 15 November 2014 - 10:57 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#24 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:59 AM

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 15 November 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

I asked Keb about what we were puzzling over, and she answered with her timeline observations. You can see her answer in the discussion link I posted on the previous page.

(I can't link right now, on a mobile, but I will add the link again when I can. :) )

I think her answer provides some clarity. :cool:

SFG

Thanks. I went to read it and saw your comment, I'll go check for the follow-up. I couldn't get the timeline spread sheet to work though :)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#25 DWF

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 12:08 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 15 November 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostDWF, on 15 November 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 15 November 2014 - 01:25 AM, said:

Quote

quasi-step-grandfather (Hook).

Oh, that only just sunk in.  :oh:  Can Hook be step-father and step-grandfather at the same time?  :freakoutnonny:

SFG

Hook didn't marry Neal mother hence the quasi. And Henry will probably be spending alot of time with Archie when he gets older. :D

I consider Hook's and Milah's relationship to be more real than Regina's and Snow's father. The latter may have been legal, but there was no love there. On either side I think. Snow's father appear to just want a mother/womanly example for his kid. Don't think it turned out so great ;) He may have cared for Regina, but in a more platonic fashion, he was obviously still in love with his dead wife. And it seems Hook spent a good deal of quality time with his quasi-step-son Baelfire in Neverland ;)

Snow's father seemed to be morein love with Snow than Regina but at least it was a legal marriage. Rumple was told that Milah was dead though. And to complicate matters even further both Hook and Neal were going after Emma. :wacko:
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#26 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 12:17 PM

View PostDWF, on 15 November 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Snow's father seemed to be morein love with Snow than Regina but at least it was a legal marriage. Rumple was told that Milah was dead though. And to complicate matters even further both Hook and Neal were going after Emma. :wacko:

Legality doesn't mean much to me compared to how the people in the relationship felt about their marriage/relationship. But then, my mother had a 25 year long common-law relationship.

Regina didn't want to be married to Snow's father and we knew that, heck Cora knew that. Snow knew that too, more or less. She knew about Regina loving stable-boy.

Edited by sierraleone, 15 November 2014 - 12:18 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#27 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 12:29 PM

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 15 November 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

I asked Keb about what we were puzzling over, and she answered with her timeline observations. You can see her answer in the discussion link I posted on the previous page.

SFG

I finally got her time-line to work. She still has Roland's birth listed after Snow and Charming met, though from what I understand she hasn't included the finale/time travel episode into her figurings yet, which is where it is actually first establishes that Roland was born prior to Snow and Charming meeting.

"Snow White robs Prince Charming's carriage" is dated as April 13, 3 B.C. (before curse I presume ;) )
"Roland is born" is listed as May 21, 3 B.C., with the following comment:

Quote

Marian appeared to be between 6-9 months pregnant in 219. Roland is 4 years old in 303, which is about a year and 2 months after Emma arrives in Storybrooke and time starts moving again. This places his birth 2 months after Marian's life was saved and roughly 4+28 years before 303's events. (219, 303) Enchanted Forest.

At first I was scratching my head over her being "saved" but then I realized she meant Robin stealing the healing potion(?) and/or Belle saving them from Rumple's arrow perhaps. I also don't see how early season 3 can be 14 months from the curse being broken, if you add in another year for the time jump that happens half-way through season 3 then it has been *at least* 26 months from the curse being broken now and it should be Dec 2013 in Storybrooke (a month after Frozen has been released ;) ), when the writers are saying it is early 2013. So, yeah, parts of the crowded timeline from Snow and Charming meeting, and post-curse time-line, need some jiggering :)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#28 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 12:53 PM

ETA - apparently Aurora's pregnancy was in stasis while she was a monkey, so ignore the below. I don't know how tenable that is though, because it makes it seem that  Aurora's kid was premature then, if there was no fetal development...
She was turned into a monkey in between the flashback events of 3x19 and gave birth soon after the events in the 'present day' in Storybrooke in the season 3 finale. ;) Of course I don't know how far into the 'year' under the second curse in FTL they were. Snow looked visibly pregnant, but then the actress was. Aurora did not look visibly pregnant, though they had her in a big cape which could hide a lot, and some women just don't show that much. Meh.

Though it occurs to me, when they say there was a year jump, there could not have been a year jump. Unless time goes by slower in FTL then in our world, and I don't think we want to speculate on that ;)

In episode 3x03 "Quite a Common Fairy" Mulan goes to see Aurora and discovers that Aurora is pregnant before going back to join Robin Hood and his Merry Men. Even if Aurora's period was 1 day late, and she was 2 weeks past her due date when she gave birth, there can't be much more than 9 months between the events before Neal arrived in Neverland to save Henry and when Aurora and Phillips were de-monkeyfied, which was in the season finale (or episode before) if I recall correctly. So the year jump was an exaggeration. Or just admit the writers have little idea what they are doing ;)

This also means that baby Neal was likely a little premature, unless Snow got pregnant in Neverland.

Edited by sierraleone, 15 November 2014 - 01:20 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#29 sierraleone

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 06:57 PM

I now have a question that has more to do with the mythology than the timeline.

You know it occurs to me that the presence of Sarah Fisher (i.e. Ingrid/Snow Queen) did not raise any questions by Regina/Henry before. No matter what assumption we go with, I see holes in the story (other than memory loss, that is always a dependable story hole filler ;) ). I assume how/why/where/when Sarah Fisher came to Storybrooke with be answered, at least cursorily, but how that does that address the follow scenarios/holes?

1 - Sarah Fisher came over with the first curse, and somehow, like Gold and Regina, kept her memories, and even more was able to leave (how else would she had have her six months with teenager Emma). Granted we don't know how involved Regina was in setting up everyone's existence in Storybrooke to be miserable, maybe the curse magic was intelligent enough to do that without explicit direction and Regina only gave explicit direction were she wanted to/had interest (if needed even then). So Regina may not know everyone in town....

However, Sarah Fisher ran a Ice-cream shop. Certainly a parent (which Regina has been the past 11+ years) would notice the Ice-cream shop in town. However, Sarah Fisher, as established, she left for six or more months in 1998/1999(?). And she probably left longer (who'd want to stay in Storybrooke if they knew better?) Even if she didn't have the Ice-cream shop set up before Henry was born would Regina have not noticed a new business in town? In a town were people go day to day in a fog of unchanging misery? (I assume before Emma showed up it was quite monotonous) Could Regina have not noticed a new business pop-up in town? One as tasty, and as family/child-attracting, as an Ice-cream shop?

2 - Sarah Fisher never came over with the first curse and came back sometime in the last 6 years, before Emma. Again, same problems with Regina. However, similarly you have problems with Henry. Henry was absolutely adamant in season one that no one every comes into town, and no one ever leaves. Wouldn't he similarly have noticed a new business that would be of interest to him, with its owner that he has never seen before? Granted, he may not be able to logic it out that this person is absolutely new, and I don't know for how long he had the storybook from Mary Margaret that made him think these things through more.

We know she didn't come back with the second/third curse because those happened mid season three (at the beginning and end of the one year jump), and the photos on the Sarah/Emma meeting/conflict were from season one.

Regardless of the scenario I am sure Rumple knew who she was the whole time she was in Storybrooke, whatever whole time in Storybrooke actually means ;)


Of course, a little hand-waving and a little memory-wiping (memory inserting might be more appropriate here) and the whole mess goes away :p We know the Snow Queen can erase memory, and has other magic besides ice-magic


*Regina is driving Henry home from school and sees a new business, an Ice-cream business, on the route. Regina pulls over, and steps out of the car and sees a blonde business-woman welcoming customer's in*

"Excuse me, who the hell are you?" an angry Regina asks.

*Blonde woman waves her hand in an arc*

"Hi Regina! Got a new flavour to try, you and Henry should come by after dinner."

*The anger on Regina's face turns into her mayoral sternness, then confusion before sliding off into a more open congenial expression often reserved for things involving Henry*

"Maybe another time Sarah, Henry has a lot of homework tonight"


Gawd, I am tired of memory loss being the only thing apparently holding some plots together ;)

Edited by sierraleone, 16 November 2014 - 06:58 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#30 DWF

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 07:30 PM

Well either the ice cream shop was always there as we know they all went out for ice cream upon returning to Storybrooke in the second season or they just went to Granny's. It's possible that the Ice Queen just took over the shop at the start of this seaon sensing that Elsa was in town.
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#31 sierraleone

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 08:04 PM

View PostDWF, on 16 November 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Well either the ice cream shop was always there as we know they all went out for ice cream upon returning to Storybrooke in the second season or they just went to Granny's. It's possible that the Ice Queen just took over the shop at the start of this seaon sensing that Elsa was in town.

You mean she was in town for some portion of at least 2+ years, but not running the Ice-cream shop (which has always been in business?), and thereby was a background town-person which Regina and Henry would have been less likely to notice? As long as her entering/exiting town was done discretely/secretly (which with her teleportation power isn't difficult to imagine).

So, basically, an ownership change in the Ice-cream shop happened something since Emma broke the curse, and, honestly, with everything else happening around town, who'd notice? I mean, since the curse was broken there have been two other curses, one of which has added to their numbers ;) ETA - (well not who'd notice their ice-cream lady/man changing, but who'd think it of note and assume it is a stranger to the Enchanted Forest / Storybrooke and not just something much more benign with a normal explanation).

(Is the Enchanted Forest presumed vacated now, except for Ogres? Cora protected a small part of the Enchanted Forest from being transported to Storybrooke in the first curse, but still frozen in time. Where resided apparently Aurora, Phillips, Mullan, Robin Hood and men, some King Arthurian court people, and who knows who else. I assume Cora's protected area included Rapunzel, and probably some associates, since she didn't mention any time in Storybrooke not being locked up in tower ;) There be some good land for claiming there, though I am sure the Ogres are trying to populate it ;) ).

Edited by sierraleone, 16 November 2014 - 08:12 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#32 DWF

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 08:37 PM

Well I doubt if the ownership of the shop happened normally, I just kind of thought she got rid of the previous owner magically. I can't imagine Ingrid being a part of either Gold or Regina's plan from tehn start. I know that Regina's been busy with Robin Hood, but it's odd atht she's not been all that interested in Ingrid's plans.
The longest-running science fiction series: decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans... Cybermen! They're still in the nursery compared to us. Fifty years of absolute fandom. That's what it takes to be really critical.

"Don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido

#33 sierraleone

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 09:05 PM

View PostDWF, on 16 November 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

Well I doubt if the ownership of the shop happened normally, I just kind of thought she got rid of the previous owner magically. I can't imagine Ingrid being a part of either Gold or Regina's plan from tehn start. I know that Regina's been busy with Robin Hood, but it's odd atht she's not been all that interested in Ingrid's plans.

Well I meant how the Storybrook-ians(?) would have perceived it. They basically think, "eh, I guess that previous guy/girl wanted out of the business, as this previously unknown and presumably harmless person Sarah says" ;) Emma must not have asked about the previous owner though, considering her superpower ;)

Maybe Regina just figures it is time for someone else to save the day for once :)

Edited by sierraleone, 16 November 2014 - 09:05 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#34 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 02:11 AM

LOL!  Apparently William Shatner tweets his reactions while viewing Once and other shows.  :lol:

During this episode:

Quote

William Shatner ‏-  Nov 9

#OUAT how does Robin Hood know the Wonderland guy?

:facepalm-f7e:   :howling:

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 17 November 2014 - 02:12 AM.

"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

Posted Image   Posted Image


Check out my music threads:

Beautiful Music: Folk, Acoustic, Traditional, and World

A Celebration of Song Lyrics, New and Old: Just the poetry  (to include those with different musical tastes than me)

When Sci Fi Actors Sing

#35 RJDiogenes

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 07:29 PM

"Spock, how does Robin Hood know the Wonderland guy?"

"One moment, captain.  Checking the library computer now."
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#36 Cardie

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 07:41 PM

When they checked all the Storybrooke records, they ruled out the Snow Queen coming over with the first curse. Of course we see how and when she came to our world in yesterday's episode. Because Ingrid was out and about during Emma's teen years, she had to come over to some place outside Storybroke and then was able to come there once the curse was lifted. She's like Emma, August, and Hook in that she never had any of the memory problems related to the curses or to leaving Storybrooke. Her own memory-erasing spells were derived from the rock trolls' as I suspected.
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#37 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 07:57 PM

RJ, I posted another hilarious twitter exchange here.  :rolleyes:

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 17 November 2014 - 07:58 PM.

"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

Posted Image   Posted Image


Check out my music threads:

Beautiful Music: Folk, Acoustic, Traditional, and World

A Celebration of Song Lyrics, New and Old: Just the poetry  (to include those with different musical tastes than me)

When Sci Fi Actors Sing

#38 RJDiogenes

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 08:04 PM

"From battles."  Yeah.  That was quite a battle he had with Elaan of Troius.  :lol:
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image



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