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And the indictment of Ferguson officer is...?

Ferguson Michael Brown Officer Dan Wilson

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#41 offworlder

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 12:53 PM

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resisting arrest does not automatically make it that no officer crossed a line, does not mean you get to do what the hell you want, oh 'free play' like in NFL- the real question is did this officer follow his training and what exactly was his training? and since this turned into adversarial with the community, indict investigation, the police were the attacked party, they will not IA investigate this guy and his training.

we see so often an officer goes strait to the Glock, or strait to a artery clamp neck MMA hold thing- but are they trained to jump to that or to do other, a multi level tiered thing of all the procedures you can do, all the tools on your belt, and your radio for backup, and & etc

why did he go to that neck hold thing? was he trained to do a takedown instead with leg sweep, grab wrist and Hook Em up?? or which tier did he skip? and, big one, why did he hold the hold after, the guy was down? was he trained to do that? what was this training, did he follow training? does the training have to be changed? i think it's one Huge thing the communities and protests are going for, change/improve the training!

like the Seattle thing, kicking the head of someone already down and cuffed! or the Rodney, taken down but instead of speedily cuffed they just swung and swung and beat the crap with knight sticks?? that was not training! we see this so much, officer skips steps, just shoot, just shoot 16 bullets, just murder/death/kill

or just choke, keep the choke, no other methods, no other tiers, levels, ............... I say the training is, and should be, you do your martial take down fast to keep subject off balance, sweep, pressure point pain, to get the edge, but dont hold it, make your  moves, multi off em, then cuff em fast, down, hooked up, and take em in, no wrestling for minutes, no shoots, no chokes, get em on his face on that ground, a knee in the small of back to hold em. But it would take an IA investigation on this, which we may not see.

the Mizz one the guy was sat down, have a chat, speak about family, threat, security, and he resigned; we dont know if this one will be like that; or if police, confronted with the adversarial, will quietly circle the wagons, and this guy who has had these complaints before will just remain, on the street.


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#42 Omega

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:00 PM

View Post243Skunk, on 06 December 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

View PostOmega, on 06 December 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

You said that the fact that this man died after resisting arrest means it wasn't an aggressive act by police. And you're right that if the police want to arrest you, they will. But they didn't arrest this man. They killed him. For peacefully, verbally resisting arrest.

If you think that's okay, then my earlier statement is entirely accurate.

I think what killed him is still up for debate, which is why the grand jury didnt indite. If anything, those EMS guys just standing there deserve just as much credit too.

The man was alive. The police responded to conversation with physical force, which is not appropriate. The nature of the physical force used was forbidden by their training, specifically because it can kill people. And then the guy dies immediately.

And you're proposing this is... what? Coincidence? The man just happened to die immediately after an unnecessary and dangerous attack? Drat the luck...

#43 Rhys

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 09:40 PM

In Ontario, we have the Special Investigations Unit (SIU) - a civilian agency that conducts an investigation whenever "police officers are involved in incidents where someone has been seriously injured, dies or alleges sexual assault". This would even include incidents where, for example, a police officer tried to get someone to pull over, they sped up, and ran into & killed a bystander. (i.e. Not just for suspicion of excessive force by an officer, etc.)

http://www.siu.on.ca/en/index.php

I was surprised to find out that this kind of agency is unusual.
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#44 243Skunk

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 03:49 AM

View PostOmega, on 06 December 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

The man was alive. The police responded to conversation with physical force, which is not appropriate. The nature of the physical force used was forbidden by their training, specifically because it can kill people. And then the guy dies immediately.

And you're proposing this is... what? Coincidence? The man just happened to die immediately after an unnecessary and dangerous attack? Drat the luck...

I'm going off my own personal observations here, which comes from the only version of the Video that I've seen, which was edited for dramatic affect. If you have a better/more complete version that you know about, I'd be willing to dissect that one, too...

What I see at first is an agitated man yelling at two plainclothes cops, waving his hands around. He is sweaty, with sweat marks on his chest. So its either hot, or he has physically exerted himself. Or both. The narrative of the video I saw (from Time Magazine, which I would assume is a trustworthy source) said he had just broken up a fight, so it could very possibly be both. Presumably, his heart rate is already up.

From what I know, I see that the two cops that are already there are standing by for their back-up to arrive, hoping that he will calm down enough so that they can take him into custody. This lasts several minutes, or even longer. I can't really tell, as the film is cut at least once. Once additional resources arrive, they attempt to take him into custody. One Officer attempts to grab his arm/hand, in what I would assume would be an attempt to place it behind his back to handcuff him. However, at this time he pulls away, with what appears to me to be clenched fists.

This is an important fact that nobody (or almost nobody) notices or mentions. The first Officers attempts to use firm grip only, and the Suspect (Garner) pulled away. At this point, he crossed the threshold from non-compliant, to aggressive combative on most Police use of force charts. Hands are dangerous, especially with a size differential like there was between the first few officers and Garner. Realistically, Garner could have at that moment punched and seriously injured someone. Seeing how agitated that he was, I could see that as a real possibility. At that point, that is when they take him to the ground. Everything up to that point was legit as far as I was concerned. They even had cause to use a joint lock or some form of take down to gain compliance. And all of this occured BEFORE the neck restraint was applied.

Secondly, fighting someone like this (both sides, for both the Officer and the Suspect) is physically draining. It takes a lot physically out of you, and can leave you winded. And that is if you are physically fit and work out. Garner wasn't. He also had bronchial asthma, heart disease, obesity, and hypertensive cardiovascular disease. These were listed as contributing factors in his autopsy. So he was already in bad shape medically, and the physical exertion, combined with the neck damage and the positional asphyxia from being on the ground was enough to put him into cardiac arrest.

There were errors made on both sides. (I can personally point to the knee on the head as cringe-worthy). Not rolling him over on his side so he could breathe easier. Not doing CPR. But Juries don't look just at those things, they look at everything. His medical condition. What he was doing prior to the use of force, which caused it. Him pulling away when Officers first attempted to grab his arms. Those cause reasonable doubt, which makes this a hard case to win.

#45 Omega

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 04:39 AM

I was with you until "hard to win".
http://fivethirtyeig...-darren-wilson/

Remember, we're not talking about juries. We're talking about grand juries. Totally different thing. Reasonable doubt is not the standard.It is statistically essentially unheard of for a grand jury to not indict. Unless the accused is a cop. Then the stats are reversed. So whether the trial would have been hard to win for the prosecution, we'll never know. There are barriers preventing cops from ever being judged by the same standards as we mere simple civilians are.

Edited by Omega, 07 December 2014 - 04:42 AM.


#46 243Skunk

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:52 AM

And I think you answered your own question with your link.

Quote

There are at least three possible explanations as to why grand juries are so much less likely to indict police officers. The first is juror bias: Perhaps jurors tend to trust police officer and believe their decisions to use violence are justified, even when the evidence says otherwise. The second is prosecutorial bias: Perhaps prosecutors, who depend on police as they work on criminal cases, tend to present a less compelling case against officers, whether consciously or unconsciously.

The third possible explanation is more benign. Ordinarily, prosecutors only bring a case if they think they can get an indictment. But in high-profile cases such as police shootings, they may feel public pressure to bring charges even if they think they have a weak case.

“The prosecutor in this case didn’t really have a choice about whether he would bring this to a grand jury,” Ben Trachtenberg, a University of Missouri law professor, said of the Brown case. “It’s almost impossible to imagine a prosecutor saying the evidence is so scanty that I’m not even going to bring this before a grand jury.”

Primarily, I am thinking of the first and third explanation. The DA had no other choice than to "punt" to the Grand Jury in the Wilson case. With all of the contradictory witness statements, all they had was the physical evidence which didn't support any type of prosecution. In the Garner matter, you can pull use of force experts from across the country to explain what went wrong, but ultimately you still have to introduce the full Use of Force manual which points to what aggressive/combative means. They get to see what the options are for those situations. They also (presumably) got the full video of the incident, and not the chopped up version we have all seen. You also have to introduce the full medical record for Garner, which showed all of his medical issues. Apparently, what was enough to show that the preponderance of the evidence didn't support the indictment.

That's probably not going to sit well with you. I also know that I'm not going to change anyone's minds in this. I'm only giving the flip side of the coin to try to explain the other side.

#47 DarthMarley

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 12:25 PM

Exactly. Overgrown children are STILL throwing tantrums over this.

This never should have made it to a grand jury.

Pointing to these grand jury outcomes as shocking statistical outliers shows an embarrassing misunderstanding of statistics and law.
The stats don't lie, but people using them are apparently trying to lie.
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#48 Balderdash

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 11:50 AM

View PostDarthMarley, on 09 December 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

Exactly. Overgrown children are STILL throwing tantrums over this.

This never should have made it to a grand jury.

Pointing to these grand jury outcomes as shocking statistical outliers shows an embarrassing misunderstanding of statistics and law.
The stats don't lie, but people using them are apparently trying to lie.

They are not overgrown children throwing tantrums, they are Americans with rights and they continue to exercise their rights.   Hopefully at the very least we get a national dialog about what is acceptable use of force and community policing.

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



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#49 243Skunk

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 06:58 PM

View PostBalderdash, on 10 December 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

View PostDarthMarley, on 09 December 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

Exactly. Overgrown children are STILL throwing tantrums over this.

This never should have made it to a grand jury.

Pointing to these grand jury outcomes as shocking statistical outliers shows an embarrassing misunderstanding of statistics and law.
The stats don't lie, but people using them are apparently trying to lie.

They are not overgrown children throwing tantrums, they are Americans with rights and they continue to exercise their rights.   Hopefully at the very least we get a national dialog about what is acceptable use of force and community policing.

Some of them are. If they weren't, then the would realize that shutting down freeways and stomping on Police cars doesn't win them any arguments with the general population.

#50 Balderdash

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 10:35 AM

View Post243Skunk, on 10 December 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

View PostBalderdash, on 10 December 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

View PostDarthMarley, on 09 December 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

Exactly. Overgrown children are STILL throwing tantrums over this.

This never should have made it to a grand jury.

Pointing to these grand jury outcomes as shocking statistical outliers shows an embarrassing misunderstanding of statistics and law.
The stats don't lie, but people using them are apparently trying to lie.

They are not overgrown children throwing tantrums, they are Americans with rights and they continue to exercise their rights.   Hopefully at the very least we get a national dialog about what is acceptable use of force and community policing.

Some of them are. If they weren't, then the would realize that shutting down freeways and stomping on Police cars doesn't win them any arguments with the general population.

Well, lets concentrate on the few and forget about the vital message coming from MOST protesters.  Besides people in my area, DC, weren't that upset when protesters shutdown 395, it was pretty cool.

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#51 243Skunk

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 12:37 PM

View PostBalderdash, on 11 December 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Well, lets concentrate on the few and forget about the vital message coming from MOST protesters.  Besides people in my area, DC, weren't that upset when protesters shutdown 395, it was pretty cool.

Unfortunately, the actions of a few taint the rest. Kinda the story of life, actually.

#52 Omega

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 11:56 AM

^The same is true about law enforcement. Except, of course, law enforcement often ignores its legal obligation to do something about the few tainting the rest. Which is, of course, the fundamental problem being protested.

#53 Nonny

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 02:34 PM

View Post243Skunk, on 11 December 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

View PostBalderdash, on 11 December 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Well, lets concentrate on the few and forget about the vital message coming from MOST protesters.  Besides people in my area, DC, weren't that upset when protesters shutdown 395, it was pretty cool.

Unfortunately, the actions of a few taint the rest. Kinda the story of life, actually.

Like Bush?  Cheney?  Issa?
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#54 Nonny

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 07:20 AM

Meanwhile: Thug Kills White Prosecutor and Wife in Texas
http://www.dailykos....s?detail=email#

Quote

... Yeah, he's a white guy.

Still, he got a trial.  He wasn't shot by the police when they went to arrest him.  Sure he didn't steal "cigars" (allegedly) or sell loose cigarettes in public.  Williams wasn't caught carrying a toy air rifle around Walmart (John Crawford) or playing with a BB gun in a park (Tamir Rice) or dressing up like his favorite Anime character (Darrien Hunt).  He only stole county equipment and hoarded enough guns to arm a small militia.  
Unlike the young men and boys listed above, no one had to gin up evidence of his wicked character, or post facto justifications for why he should be killed by officers of the state.   I'll bet I'm the first person to label him a "thug" or a "brute" or an "animal."  That's because the use of those terms have been reserved for young African American males of late.  These terms, such as thug, are acceptable code words for a certain racial slur that starts with the letter N.  They are used to reinforce racial stereotypes among whites regarding African Americans - that they are criminals, a brutish, dangerous, amoral, drug infested  people who represent a threat to civil society.
So while Eric Williams is one sick, evil SOB, he does have the color of his skin going for him.  You won't hear of any Fox News host or right wing radio jocks calling him a thug. They probably won't mention him at all, and if they do, there won't be any discussion of white on white crime.  They sure as hell won't touch the subject of his gun collection, which is every white American's God given right under the second amendment.  
White people with strong political agenda can walk around the street and in stores carrying their semiautomatic "long guns" and nothing happens to them. A drunken, angry white man stand outs in the street pointing a loaded rifle at passersby, and law enforcement treats him with respect and spend as much time as they need to "de-escalate the situation."  Black boys play in an empty park with a fake gun, or carry a fake samurai sword and get shot shortly after police arrive on the scene.
And let's not forget the masses of white men who took their guns to Cliven Bundy's Ranch in Nevada to protect the rights of a common criminal....

So tell me again how this is not about racism.
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All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#55 Mark

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 05:16 AM

Mark: I guess making what happened in Waco to David Koresh and all his followers wasn't race related either. If the ATF wanted Koresh, it was widely known he went to town every few days...usually alone. However, our government in all their infinite wisdom decided to storm the walls of his compound, starting fires that led to the death 76 Branch Davidians died during the raid and resulting fire. 17 of the deaths  were children under 17 years of age.

Violence amongst humans doesn't necessarily have to be motivated by race. I heard a news report that stated racism in other countries is far worse than in the United States.

I've been profiled by police officers in my life. When I lived in Tulsa they stopped me nearly everyday they saw me in an predominantly African-American neighborhood. I couldn't make them understand I was a salesman who was working in that neighborhood for my home improvement company (I won't list the name of it). The Tulsa Police Department would stop me, ask me to for ID and insurance, tell me to step out of the car, then to search my trunk. I always complied with every order, and didn't hesitate to let them search my trunk until the third day of three-in-a-row stops. I had to complain, and ask them exactly what it was they were stopping me for, that I hadn't broken ANY laws. They had no legally logical responses to my inquiry. It was harrassement to an extreme, but in their eyes, they were just doing their job to catch drug-related criminals.

I told the police officers on that last day that just because I was a white guy in a black neighborhood, didn't give them an excuse to stop me for no reason. I also added that after this third day in a row, I would file charges against them if they continued to stop and search me without just and legal cause.

So, racism works in mysterious ways. I've known the biggests racists in the world...terribly prejudiced, and opinionated about anyone but their own color. I've also known those same people to be as nice as nice can be to the minorities they secretively despised privately. Racism doesn't necessarily begat violence...however, after the past few weeks of violence in protests rallies, people are beginning to test my tolerances regarding race, and their opinions they are being treated negatively by police. I have the greatest sympathy for minorities who have experienced racism, bigotry, and even violence aimed their way by police...however, the manner in which these latest protest rallies have been conducted, I'm starting to see why some police may harbor negative emotions toward the minority protesting.

No matter how angry I was at some actions by a police officer in a few cities around the country, I would never consider going down to the Dallas rally just to tell one police officer standing guard to go F*#(! himself, that I hated him, and his family. Many protesters in California were seen and heard doing just that. One protester screaming at the top of his lungs while marching in the rally, went out of his way, marched slowly, and in place for a while, so he could rail on one particular officer standing guard over a streetfront store to protect it from looters. This protester was said to have screamed at he top of his lungs for 20 minutes at this one officer, calling him and his family obscenities and saying he hated him and everyone connected with him, and wishing he'd just die.

And all of this laying down in the highways to protest these things they're supposedly upset about? If I were to lay down in the highways around where I live to protest something, I'd be arrested, or run over. I say these protesters deserve no better than what I myself would expect to recieve if I were in their shoes!!

Come on people!  Get a life.   There may need to be changes made...but often it's ourselves that need changing first. So before any of you protesters start crying racism and violence....take a look in the mirror, and see what it is about yourselves that you could change to make a positive difference in our society. I'm sure that protester on California that screamed obscenities at that one officer for 20 minutes made that officer feel just wonderfully about black people. I bet he went home thinking of ways he could make that man's tomorrow just a little bit better.  :sarcasm:  Riiiight.

Edited by Mark, 17 December 2014 - 05:03 PM.

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#56 offworlder

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 01:56 PM

on the Waco, there are things we dont know, if they had a way to take him and his stockpiled weapons down without a nightmare siege on the damn place they would have done, do i dont buy what you dish on that one, but,

on this other stuff, i say it's not down to the police or chief, they are included but- it's too easy, and people and press do it _all_ the time, to pick out a visible, brand name, this police, this dept, this chief, and try to lay it all on them, all their fault, they'r the evil, they must be changed and fired and, and- like a target- like Godell and the NFL, it's all the league, they must, all their fault, when really...... it's societal, and must be solved societally- the police, or the NFL league, pick yer issue, are in there, are involved, but it's not down to them, not some brand target so easy to toss rotten eggs on't- it's down to us, it's societal, solve it societally.
"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#57 Mark

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 06:15 PM

View Postoffworlder, on 16 December 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

on the Waco, there are things we dont know, if they had a way to take him and his stockpiled weapons down without a nightmare siege on the damn place they would have done, do i dont buy what you dish on that one, but,
on this other stuff, i say it's not down to the police or chief, they are included but- it's too easy, and people and press do it _all_ the time, to pick out a visible, brand name, this police, this dept, this chief, and try to lay it all on them, all their fault, they'r the evil, they must be changed and fired and, and- like a target- like Godell and the NFL, it's all the league, they must, all their fault, when really...... it's societal, and must be solved societally- the police, or the NFL league, pick yer issue, are in there, are involved, but it's not down to them, not some brand target so easy to toss rotten eggs on't- it's down to us, it's societal, solve it societally.

Mark: Buy what I dish or not, it was a known fact.


Quote

Waco Siege  Wikipedia
Although the ATF preferred to arrest Koresh when he was outside Mount Carmel, planners received inaccurate information that Koresh rarely left it.[37] The Branch Davidian members were well known locally and had cordial relations with other locals. The Branch Davidians partly supported themselves by trading at gun shows and took care always to have the relevant paperwork to ensure their transactions were legal.[38] Branch Davidian Paul Fatta was a federal firearms licensed dealer and the group operated a retail gun business called the Mag Bag. When shipments for the Mag Bag arrived, they were signed for by Fatta, Steve Schneider, or Koresh. The morning of the raid, Paul Fatta and son Kalani were on their way to the Austin, Texas gun show to conduct business.[39]  


Mark: So two of the people the ATF wanted weren't even in the compound, but were on their way to a gun show in Austin!  The ATF, FBI, along with Janet Reno, just got in too big a hurry to make their raid and arrest the suspects. With a bit more patience and more in-depth intel from people in Waco who knew the Davidiians personally, the agencies would have discovered extremely easy ways to arrest key suspects, gain peaceful access to the compound and their weapon's stash. The fire, the deaths of the four ATF officers, and the Davidians (especially the children) would likely never have happened if things had been handled by people with cooler heads, and who used better psychological tactics, and better recon before attempting to serve a warrant, or make a raid.

Quote


As the siege wore on, two factions developed within the FBI,[22] one believing negotiation to be the answer, the other, force. Increasingly aggressive techniques were used to try to force the Branch Davidians out (for instance, sleep deprivation of the inhabitants by means of all-night broadcasts of recordings of jet planes, pop music, chanting, and the screams of rabbits being slaughtered). Outside the compound, nine Bradley Fighting Vehicles (carrying M651 CS tear gas grenades and Ferret rounds) and five M728 Combat Engineer Vehicles (CEVs) (obtained from the U.S. Army) began patrolling.[22] The armored vehicles were used to destroy perimeter fencing and outbuildings and crush cars belonging to the Branch Davidians. Armored vehicles repeatedly drove over the grave of Branch Davidian Peter Gent despite protests by the Branch Davidians and the negotiators. Two of the three water storage tanks on the roof of the main building had been shot at and holed in the initial ATF raid. Eventually the FBI cut all power and water to the compound, forcing those inside to survive on rain water and stockpiled military MRE rations.[22] Criticism was later leveled by Schneider's attorney, Jack Zimmerman, at the tactic of using sleep- and peace-disrupting sound against the Branch Davidians: "The point was this – they were trying to have sleep disturbance and they were trying to take someone that they viewed as unstable to start with, and they were trying to drive him crazy. And then they got mad 'cos he does something that they think is irrational!"[55]

Despite the increasingly aggressive tactics, Koresh ordered a group of followers to leave. Eleven people left and were arrested as material witnesses, with one person charged with conspiracy to murder.[22] The children's willingness to stay with Koresh disturbed the negotiators, who were unprepared to work around the Branch Davidians' religious zeal. However, as the siege went on, the children were aware that an earlier group of children who had left with some women were immediately separated, and the women arrested. During the siege, a number of scholars who study apocalypticism in religious groups attempted to persuade the FBI that the siege tactics being used by government agents would only reinforce the impression within the Branch Davidians that they were part of a Biblical "end-of-times" confrontation that had cosmic significance.[56] This would likely increase the chances of a violent and deadly outcome. The religious scholars pointed out that—while, on the outside, the beliefs of the group may have appeared to be extreme—to the Branch Davidians, their religious beliefs were deeply meaningful, and they were willing to die for them.[56]
Koresh's discussions with the negotiating team became increasingly difficult. He proclaimed that he was the Second Coming of Christ and had been commanded by his father in heaven to remain in the compound.[22] One week prior to the April 19 assault, FBI planners considered using snipers to kill David Koresh and possibly other key Branch Davidians.[57] The FBI voiced concern that the Branch Davidians might commit mass suicide, as had happened at Jonestown where over 900 Peoples Temple members and other people killed themselves or were murdered at leader Jim Jones's behest in 1978, although Koresh had repeatedly denied any plans for this when confronted by negotiators during the standoff, and people leaving the compound had not seen any such preparation.[58]
Final assault


Posted Image
An M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle brings down the back wall and roof of the Mount Carmel gymnasium

Posted Image
Smoke rises from the compound

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Last remnants of the razed Mount Carmel Center burn down
Newly appointed U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno approved recommendations by the FBI to mount an assault, after being told that conditions were deteriorating and that children were being abused inside the compound.[51] Reno made the FBI's case to President Bill Clinton. Recalling the April 19, 1985, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSAL) siege in Arkansas (which was ended without loss of life by a blockade without a deadline), President Clinton suggested similar tactics against the Branch Davidians. Reno countered that the FBI was tired of waiting; that the standoff was costing a million dollars a week; that the Branch Davidians could hold out longer than the CSAL; and that the chances of child sexual abuse and mass suicide were real because Koresh and his followers were crazy. Clinton later recounted: "Finally, I told her that if she thought it was the right thing to do, she could go ahead."[59] Over the next several months, Janet Reno's reason for approving the final gas attack varied from her initial claim that the FBI had told her that Koresh was sexually abusing children and beating babies (the FBI later denied evidence of child abuse during the standoff) to her claim that Linda Thompson and her one-woman "Unorganized Militia of the United States" was on the way to Waco to aid or attack Koresh.[


The local sheriff, in audiotapes broadcast after the incident, said he was not apprised of the raid. Alan A. Stone's report states that the Branch Davidians did not ambush the ATF and that they "apparently did not maximize the kill of ATF agents", explaining that they were rather "desperate religious fanatics expecting an apocalyptic ending, in which they were destined to die defending their sacred ground and destined to achieve salvation."[48] A 1999 federal report later noted:


The violent tendencies of dangerous cults can be classified into two general categories—defensive violence and offensive violence. Defensive violence is utilized by cults to defend a compound or enclave that was created specifically to eliminate most contact with the dominant culture. The 1993 clash in Waco, Texas at the Branch Davidian complex is an illustration of such defensive violence. History has shown that groups that seek to withdraw from the dominant culture seldom act on their beliefs that the endtime has come unless provoked.[49]

Alan A. Stone, M.D. | Harvard Law School wrote:

The tactical arm of federal law enforcement may conventionally think of the other side as a band of criminals or as a military force or, generically, as the aggressor. But the Branch Davidians were an unconventional group in an exalted, disturbed, and desperate state of mind. They were devoted to David Koresh as the Lamb of God. They were willing to die defending themselves in an apocalyptic ending and, in the alternative, to kill themselves and their children. However, these were neither psychiatrically depressed, suicidal people nor cold-blooded killers. They were ready to risk death as a test of their faith. The psychology of such behavior—together with its religious significance for the Branch Davidians—was mistakenly evaluated, if not simply ignored, by those responsible for the FBI strategy of "tightening the noose". The overwhelming show of force was not working in the way the tacticians supposed. It did not provoke the Branch Davidians to surrender, but it may have provoked David Koresh to order the mass-suicide.[48]

Mark: So perhaps it's the  overzealousness and gung-ho attitude many members of law enforcement exhibit in their personalities that lead to bad things happening to their suspects. I've known several policemen, and each one seemed to be a bit of a thrill-seeker, and adrenaline junkie.

Mark
Discussion is an exchange of knowledge: argument is an exchange of ignorance.
Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
APOGEE MESSAGE BOARD

#58 offworlder

offworlder

    pls don't kick offworlders, we can find a place too

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 02:39 PM

food for thought, in this stuff about police, 'oh they just want to murder black people' or 'they'r all killers' and the police are the problem and we must fix them, the only problem.. here we wonder, executed in the street or executed in the media, not a good spot for cops to be in there, and maybe we have less people applying for those academies?

here's Dori telling us a story that illuminates in this, the gist comes up round the 4 m mark, see how he describes, lays this out, true story,

http://kiroradio.com/listen/9980540

this is why i said above, it's a societal problem not a police one, too lazy to just attack the name brand target, we need societal fixes for this,

"(Do you read what they say online?) I check out all these scandalous rumours about me and Elijah Wood having beautiful sex with each other ... (are they true?) About Elijah and me being boyfriend and boyfriend? Absolutely true. We've been together for about nine years. I wooed him. No I just like a lot of stuff - I like that someone says one thing and it becomes fact. It's kind of fun." --Dominic Monaghan in a phone interview with Newsweek while buying DVDs at the store. :D

#59 Nonny

Nonny

    Scourge of Pretentious Bad Latin

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 06:58 AM

4 things that should happen now that we know the truth about Witness #40, a white supremacist

http://www.dailykos....ite-supremacist

Quote

No eyewitness testimony was more consistent with Darren Wilson's personal story of events the day he shot and killed Mike Brown than that of Witness #40—who we now know as white supremacist Sandy McElroy.

Not only did Sandy McElroy testify before the grand jury twice, she was allowed to show what she claimed was her journal from the day Mike Brown was killed. In the journal she said she decided to travel to a black neighborhood so she could learn to no longer "call blacks niggers." In the transcript of her testimony, in her back and forth with members of the grand jury, members are recorded as actually stating that they believe she's telling the truth.
What's clear now, and what was actually clear to the FBI and the prosecutors before she ever testified, is that Sandy McElroy wasn't anywhere near Canfield Drive the day Mike Brown was killed and made her entire story up. Not only that, but Sandy McElroy was on record with the St. Louis police as having lied and concocted fanciful stories in other murder cases in which she falsely claimed to be a witness.
Her inclusion in the grand jury pool of witnesses poisoned the well and her testimony is the most quoted testimony of conservative pundits; Sean Hannity alone has quoted her at least 21 times in various broadcasts. In addition to her calling African Americans "apes" and saying police should "kill the niggers" in the aftermath of Mike Brown's death, she regularly posted comments on various social networks showing her affection for Darren Wilson weeks and weeks before she ever claimed to be a witness.
The FBI, in their interrogation of Sandy McElroy, completely tore apart her story and proved that she never drove onto Canfield Drive, never drove off of Canfield Drive, was never seen on Canfield Drive, and couldn't find one person or photo or message before or after the event to confirm that she was ever there....

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The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#60 Balderdash

Balderdash
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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:42 AM

View PostNonny, on 19 December 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

4 things that should happen now that we know the truth about Witness #40, a white supremacist

http://www.dailykos....ite-supremacist

Quote

No eyewitness testimony was more consistent with Darren Wilson's personal story of events the day he shot and killed Mike Brown than that of Witness #40—who we now know as white supremacist Sandy McElroy.

Not only did Sandy McElroy testify before the grand jury twice, she was allowed to show what she claimed was her journal from the day Mike Brown was killed. In the journal she said she decided to travel to a black neighborhood so she could learn to no longer "call blacks niggers." In the transcript of her testimony, in her back and forth with members of the grand jury, members are recorded as actually stating that they believe she's telling the truth.
What's clear now, and what was actually clear to the FBI and the prosecutors before she ever testified, is that Sandy McElroy wasn't anywhere near Canfield Drive the day Mike Brown was killed and made her entire story up. Not only that, but Sandy McElroy was on record with the St. Louis police as having lied and concocted fanciful stories in other murder cases in which she falsely claimed to be a witness.
Her inclusion in the grand jury pool of witnesses poisoned the well and her testimony is the most quoted testimony of conservative pundits; Sean Hannity alone has quoted her at least 21 times in various broadcasts. In addition to her calling African Americans "apes" and saying police should "kill the niggers" in the aftermath of Mike Brown's death, she regularly posted comments on various social networks showing her affection for Darren Wilson weeks and weeks before she ever claimed to be a witness.
The FBI, in their interrogation of Sandy McElroy, completely tore apart her story and proved that she never drove onto Canfield Drive, never drove off of Canfield Drive, was never seen on Canfield Drive, and couldn't find one person or photo or message before or after the event to confirm that she was ever there....

Yep.  What a surprise, eh?  :grr:

Another Democrat leaning Independent that has to search for truth because it can't be found on Fox News OR MSNBC.



"Being gay is not a Western invention, it is a human reality"  by HRC




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