9 replies to this topic

[Virgil Vox]

This run of episodes has been fantastic. This easily could have been the season finale. This episode had a lot to love.

The ending with Arsenal, Canary, Wildcat, and the residents of the Glades taking on Brick and his thugs was amazing. I loved that Arsenal got to tell Brick that he had failed the city. It was really well done. The Glades has been crapped on so much that to see the citizens fighting to take back their homes was just a great moment for the series.

I feel like this season is trying to redeem Merlyn and justify why he has done the evil things he has. I get it. His wife was murdered and that unhinged him. That doesn't wipe away the fact that he murdered 503 people and has escaped justice. Sure, he didn't kill Brick but that doesn't make him a saint.

The argument Team Arrow had about whether to accept Merlyn's help or not was convincing. Of course Roy would want his help since Merlyn saved Thea. At least they rejected his offer, mainly thanks to Felicity. Which made it a sucker punch when Oliver accepted his help. The confrontation between him and Felicity at the end was gut wrenching.

Okay, how does hacker extraordinaire Felicity not know that Merlyn has tapped the computers in the Arrow cave?

It felt like there was a scene missing between the defeat of Brick and Oliver standing on top of that truck talking to the people. The fight was still going on and then boom! It's over. Just a rough transition.

Kudos to Lance for knowing that Roy is Arsenal, but it does beg the question how he's never figured out that Oliver is the Arrow or that it's not Sara as the Canary. Though he knows now thanks to Sin. I am ready for this plot of Lance not knowing Sara is dead to be over.

[Christopher]

Virgil Vox, on 06 February 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

I feel like this season is trying to redeem Merlyn and justify why he has done the evil things he has. I get it. His wife was murdered and that unhinged him. That doesn't wipe away the fact that he murdered 503 people and has escaped justice. Sure, he didn't kill Brick but that doesn't make him a saint.

But then, Oliver killed a lot of people, both for Waller and in his "Vigilante" era, and he's managed to redeem himself and become something better. Maybe Malcolm can do the same, for Thea's sake. Although what he did to Thea, making her kill Sarah without even knowing it, would be pretty damn hard to atone for.

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Kudos to Lance for knowing that Roy is Arsenal, but it does beg the question how he's never figured out that Oliver is the Arrow or that it's not Sara as the Canary. Though he knows now thanks to Sin. I am ready for this plot of Lance not knowing Sara is dead to be over.

It's been implied before that he suspects Oliver of being the Arrow but doesn't want to know. Like that time when he called the Arrow while Ollie was standing right next to him, and when Ollie's phone went off, Lance gave him a curious look for a moment and then just shrugged it off. Wasn't there an episode where he actually told Felicity or someone outright that he doesn't want to know?

And yeah, I'm glad Laurel's stupid lie is finally starting to unravel.

[sierraleone]

Yes, really great episode

Virgil Vox, on 06 February 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

I feel like this season is trying to redeem Merlyn and justify why he has done the evil things he has. I get it. His wife was murdered and that unhinged him. That doesn't wipe away the fact that he murdered 503 people and has escaped justice. Sure, he didn't kill Brick but that doesn't make him a saint.

The argument Team Arrow had about whether to accept Merlyn's help or not was convincing. Of course Roy would want his help since Merlyn saved Thea. At least they rejected his offer, mainly thanks to Felicity. Which made it a sucker punch when Oliver accepted his help. The confrontation between him and Felicity at the end was gut wrenching.

Yeah, Felicity does make a very good case for not wanting to be a woman Oliver loves

I mean, I can understand Oliver's logic. He didn't know who killed Sarah (or who instigated/planned it) for quite a while. And when he did, and found out the reason Merlyn had done this it made quite the simple trap for Oliver if he wanted to protect his sister. (also, since he no longer kills unless absolutely necessary killing Merlyn in revenge for Sarah is mostly a non-starter.). Since Arrow was defeated by R'a he is still left in the position to protect his sister, potentially from the whole league now, until he is able to actually defeat R'a. To further that end it makes logical sense to work with the one other person who is both willing to protect your sister and is able to train you to possibly defeat R'a. Additionally, Oliver is probably hoping that either Thea will be protected from the knowledge of Sarah's death and/or if she does find out that she will disown Merlyn. Because if Oliver kills Merlyn, and Thea finds out, regardless of all the other details she will probably turn her back on Oliver. I suppose Oliver could probably tell her, but would she believe Oliver when she knows how much Oliver hates Merlyn, and would just think Oliver is trying to drive a wedge between her and Merlyn? And that would make it harder for Merlyn and Oliver to protect her.

Also, maybe Oliver feels that to judge Merlyn as too evil to be even worked with towards a common-goal would be a bit hypocritical of him Even if Oliver doesn't think Merlyn is redeemable or changable, working with him towards a common-goal is something different.

But still, Felicity reaction is understandable

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Kudos to Lance for knowing that Roy is Arsenal, but it does beg the question how he's never figured out that Oliver is the Arrow or that it's not Sara as the Canary. Though he knows now thanks to Sin. I am ready for this plot of Lance not knowing Sara is dead to be over.

Sin was wrong though. The woman posing as the Canary is Lance's daughter

ETA: In last weeks episode, when they showed Oliver's friend going back to working for the league... Do you think he went back to further help Oliver (and by extension Thea) and/or will end up doing so?

Edited by sierraleone, 06 February 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[Virgil Vox]

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But then, Oliver killed a lot of people, both for Waller and in his "Vigilante" era, and he's managed to redeem himself and become something better. Maybe Malcolm can do the same, for Thea's sake. Although what he did to Thea, making her kill Sarah without even knowing it, would be pretty damn hard to atone for.

Granted, but Oliver has worked since then to be better than killing. He's trying to do right and feels remorse for his actions. Plus, as far as we know, he's never committed an act of terrorism. Merlyn isn't trying to redeem himself. Not really. He's the same selfish individual who wanted to blow up the Glades (and half succeeded) because his wife died. His methods have just changed. Maybe he didn't kill Brick, but he still set everything into motion when he brainwashed Thea into killing Sara. For all we know this could have been his plan all along, and that's why he saved Thea in the first place. I have no problems with bad guys getting redeemed, but Merlyn is a murderer and terrorist who so far hasn't shown any real remorse for his actions. The closest we've gotten to that is him saying that maybe trying to blow up the Glades as a response to his wife's death wasn't the best idea ever.

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And yeah, I'm glad Laurel's stupid lie is finally starting to unravel.

It's the one thing that has bugged me all season. It's such a cruel thing to do, even if Laurel and co. think they're doing Lance a favor. They're all going to lose his trust when he finds out.

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To further that end it makes logical sense to work with the one other person who is both willing to protect your sister and is able to train you to possibly defeat R'a.

I agree that it's logical for Oliver to make a deal with the devil so that he can learn how to beat Ra's. Yet at the same time I don't get why he thinks he needs to confront Ra's on his own level. Oliver isn't a master swordsman and there's no way he can learn in time unless Ra's decides to delay his revenge for several years.

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ETA: In last weeks episode, when they showed Oliver's friend going back to working for the league... Do you think he went back to further help Oliver (and by extension Thea) and/or will end up doing so?

Without knowing exactly what happened that made Maseo go to the League (though I'm guessing his son died) it's hard to tell if he went back solely for Oliver's sake or as some kind of penance. I think it's probably both. I'm sure Maseo will come to Oliver's aid whenever the final showdown between Ra's and Oliver takes place.

[sierraleone]

Virgil Vox, on 06 February 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Without knowing exactly what happened that made Maseo go to the League (though I'm guessing his son died) it's hard to tell if he went back solely for Oliver's sake or as some kind of penance. I think it's probably both. I'm sure Maseo will come to Oliver's aid whenever the final showdown between Ra's and Oliver takes place.

I forgot to mention their kid. I think he must be dead too. He was what, 10-13 in the flashbacks 5ish years ago, so he'd be 15-18 now. And his parents have gone their separate ways for a while now and obviously don't have kid friendly lives (well, his mother might have been able to manage, but it would have been some isolated teen years for him). But I don't think his mother would have wanted that for him. So, if he wasn't let go to some relatives (and both China and Japan have low birth rates, he likely doesn't have a lot of extended family), the kid is most probably dead. That is probably (and the events surrounding it) what has lead his parents to their current circumstances.

[Christopher]

sierraleone, on 06 February 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

Yeah, Felicity does make a very good case for not wanting to be a woman Oliver loves

Well, she's got no shortage of alternative suitors to choose from. All the superheroes fall for Felicity. I'm actually wondering if her rift with Oliver is setting her up to follow Brandon Routh into an Atom spinoff.

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Since Arrow was defeated by R'a

That's Ra's. Ra's al Ghul.

Speaking of which, I noted something interesting these past two episodes. Most of the characters pronounce "Ra's" the way it was pronounced in the Nolan movies, like "Roz." But both Maseo and Tatsu pronounce it "Raysh," the way it's always pronounced in animated productions. I wonder why that is. (I gather that both are more or less valid in different regional dialects -- although neither of them follows standard Arabic pronunciation, which would be sort of "Rrah-ss.")

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Additionally, Oliver is probably hoping that either Thea will be protected from the knowledge of Sarah's death and/or if she does find out that she will disown Merlyn.

I'm sure the last thing Oliver would want is for his sister to discover that she had been made to kill without her knowledge.

Virgil Vox, on 06 February 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Granted, but Oliver has worked since then to be better than killing. He's trying to do right and feels remorse for his actions. Plus, as far as we know, he's never committed an act of terrorism. Merlyn isn't trying to redeem himself. Not really. He's the same selfish individual who wanted to blow up the Glades (and half succeeded) because his wife died. His methods have just changed.

Even so, there's a crack in the armor now. Maybe that can be cultivated.

Edited by Christopher, 06 February 2015 - 09:52 PM.

[Virgil Vox]

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Well, she's got no shortage of alternative suitors to choose from. All the superheroes fall for Felicity. I'm actually wondering if her rift with Oliver is setting her up to follow Brandon Routh into an Atom spinoff.

While I think Felicity would be great in an Atom spin-off (or even joining The Flash) I'd rather she stick around the Arrow Cave. She makes that show work and without her there it wouldn't be as good.

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Even so, there's a crack in the armor now. Maybe that can be cultivated.

I just find myself against any kind of redemption arc for Merlyn. Maybe it's because he hasn't paid for his crimes or that he doesn't show remorse. I'd rather the show not just brush away over 500 deaths simply because Merlyn can teach Oliver how to use a sword.

[Christopher]

Virgil Vox, on 09 February 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

While I think Felicity would be great in an Atom spin-off (or even joining The Flash) I'd rather she stick around the Arrow Cave. She makes that show work and without her there it wouldn't be as good.

Clearly, we need to clone Emily Bett Rickards. That way, she can star in all three shows. Felicities for everybody!

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I just find myself against any kind of redemption arc for Merlyn. Maybe it's because he hasn't paid for his crimes or that he doesn't show remorse. I'd rather the show not just brush away over 500 deaths simply because Merlyn can teach Oliver how to use a sword.

Well, of course that's not what I'm suggesting. I mean that, now that Merlyn's started to realize some of his past beliefs were in error, that could be cultivated and he could get to the point where he does experience genuine remorse and repentance. He's not there yet, but it might be possible for him to get there.

Edited by Christopher, 09 February 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[Orpheus]

Christopher, on 09 February 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

Clearly, we need to clone Emily Bett Rickards

Motion seconded.

All in favor say "Aye!"

[Virgil Vox]

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Motion seconded.

All in favor say "Aye!"

Aye! Seriously, if there was a way that Emily Rickards could pull double or triple duty on all these shows I would just lose my mind. Seriously, just give Felicity her own spin-off. Oh, and bring Allison Mack back as Chloe to be her partner. I would watch that show forever and ever.