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Issa now Urging Voters Against Recall

California Recall Election Issa 2003

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#1 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 05:17 PM

Just when you thought the California recall couldn't get weirder:

Issa Now says no to Recall.


For you Californians who'd like to see him
presented with a bill.

Pretty much puts the lie to any chance this was anything other than a Republican grab for power. (Well, primarily an Issan grab for power even if he did get served with an irony sandwich by Arnold.)

Ro

#2 Rov Judicata

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 05:22 PM

Quote

Pretty much puts the lie to any chance this was anything other than a Republican grab for power

Not really.

Davis is a terrible governor. From what we know, it sounds like Bustamente would be far worse. His extensive connections with the racist organization Mecha and the campaign finance issues are profoundly troubling. Seeing him on national TV refusing to condemn the slogan "For the race everything, for those outside the race nothing" was profoundly disturbing.

If it's between Bustamente and Davis, keep Davis. If only Arnold and McClintock would work together, they'd crush Bustamente. Yeesh.

That being said, it *is* terribly ironic.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. ß 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#3 Rhea

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 05:28 PM

^I agree with Rov on all counts. Rhea faints from shock  :ninja:

(I imagine Issa and his Republican friends would have thought it through a little more if they'd realized that they'd end up with a field of over 100 candidates, one of them the personable but politically vapid Ahnold).  :p

Edited by Rhea, 23 September 2003 - 05:30 PM.

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#4 Rov Judicata

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 05:35 PM

Rhea, on Sep 23 2003, 03:28 PM, said:

^I agree with Rov on all counts. Rhea faints from shock  :ninja:
:ninja:. *catches her*

Quote

(I imagine Issa and his Republican friends would have thought it through a little more if they'd realized that they'd end up with a field of over 100 candidates, one of them the personable but politically vapid Ahnold).† :p

Yeah, I don't think they saw that'n coming... ;).

So, let's see... the main options in California are: Incompetence, Sleaziness, and Vapidity.

Um, good luck with that... ;).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. ß 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#5 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 05:36 PM

I'm not arguing Davis' fitness as a governor, but the recall was going nowhere until Issa's infusion of cash greased the wheels.

I've been involved in recalls before that were truly grass roots. They were on a much smaller scale, but there's a clear difference to be seen. It's in the volunteers.

Ro

#6 Rov Judicata

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 05:39 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Sep 23 2003, 03:36 PM, said:

I'm not arguing Davis' fitness as a governor, but the recall was going nowhere until Issa's infusion of cash greased the wheels.
True. But no amount of cash can buy somebody's signature if they're happy with the way the government is functioning. And even citizens who are unhappy may not sign aboard; if there was a movement to recall my governor, I wouldn't sign. I disagree with her on a lot of things, but she's far from dangerously incompetent.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. ß 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#7 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 05:49 PM

See my comment above re grass roots vs commercial enterprise.

You have to get the petitions to the people to sign them. That takes footwork, even today.  (Though I'm not up on California's laws in this regard, so correct me if I'm wrong about that.)  Two motivations can carry you through-true believers, and hard cash.

This recall movement (I'm talking about the signatures to call it, not the election itself) didn't have  as much in the way of true believers as it did check signers and cashers.  

Ro

#8 Rhea

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 05:54 PM

I agree. When you have to bus in hired hands from out of state to solicit signatures for you, it's not a grassroots anything.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#9 Bad Wolf

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 06:24 PM

I'm with Ro all the way.

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#10 GiGi

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 06:28 PM

^ Ditto, sent off my letter.
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#11 HubcapDave

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 06:46 PM

Rhea, on Sep 23 2003, 03:54 PM, said:

I agree. When you have to bus in hired hands from out of state to solicit signatures for you, it's not a grassroots anything.
For those who characterize this as a Republican grab for power...... :p

You have a point, but not all of the signatures were collected that way.

Personally, I sent mine in from a form I downloaded form one of the recall sites.

The truth of the matter is, these are the people who get hired whenever someone's trying to collect signatures. I got hit up by one coming out of my local Safeway recently, for two separate ballot initiatives (one I signed, the other I didn't).

I don't get how this somehow lessens the fact that there were enough people out there that were dissatisfied with Gray Davis to get twice the amount of signatures needed to kick off the recall. "Grassroots" or not, this is what the people want to do.

#12 Banapis

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 08:08 PM

Ro-Astarte, on Sep 23 2003, 10:17 PM, said:

Just when you thought the California recall couldn't get weirder:

Issa Now says no to Recall.

After reading that, I thought it was *finally* safe to say that the CA recall couldn't get any weirder than that.

Then I saw this:

http://votearianna.com/cleanhouse/

:eek2:

Banapis

#13 Kosh

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 08:16 PM

Quote

The truth of the matter is, these are the people who get hired whenever someone's trying to collect signatures.

If there aren't enough people who want it enough to go out and get signatures, then there should be no recall. Hiring a company to come in and do very much of the job cheapens the whole thing. Glad it backfired on them.
Can't Touch This!!

#14 Kimmer

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 08:21 PM

HubcapDave, on Sep 23 2003, 04:46 PM, said:

Rhea, on Sep 23 2003, 03:54 PM, said:

I agree. When you have to bus in hired hands from out of state to solicit signatures for you, it's not a grassroots anything.
For those who characterize this as a Republican grab for power...... :p

You have a point, but not all of the signatures were collected that way.

Personally, I sent mine in from a form I downloaded form one of the recall sites.

The truth of the matter is, these are the people who get hired whenever someone's trying to collect signatures. I got hit up by one coming out of my local Safeway recently, for two separate ballot initiatives (one I signed, the other I didn't).

I don't get how this somehow lessens the fact that there were enough people out there that were dissatisfied with Gray Davis to get twice the amount of signatures needed to kick off the recall. "Grassroots" or not, this is what the people want to do.
Ummm ... what HubcapDave said. I downloaded a form and passed it around and collected signatures. That's grassroots to me.


kimmer

#15 Uncle Sid

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 09:10 PM

What's so great about "true believers"?  They actually care?  Big deal. True believers committed suicide in the Heaven's Gate cult.  True believers blew up the World Trade Center.  It's more like "true believers" are the people who have enough free time on their hands to pass out petitions.  The petition process isn't meant to gauge how much you "believe" in something, it gauges how many people will sign a petition.  If you believe enough, you'll sign the petition.  If you don't, no paid signature-taker can make you sign.  

The position that a petition campaign run by "true believers" is more legitimate than one that people are paid to gather signatures is specious.  One person's "true believer" is another person's "crackpot".
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#16 Norville

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 10:15 PM

Quote

If it's between Bustamente and Davis, keep Davis. If only Arnold and McClintock would work together, they'd crush Bustamente. Yeesh.

Agreed. Since I refuse to vote for Ah-nuld (or Bustamante, at this point), and McClintock, from the interviews I've heard, seems to have brains and guts and may actually want to revive California instead of being in this for the stardom of it, I've known for some time who I want to vote for. He has no chance against Ah-nuld, of course, but I'm going for the lost cause, anyway...
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Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
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Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#17 Ro-Astarte

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 08:30 AM

Quote

The position that a petition campaign run by "true believers" is more legitimate than one that people are paid to gather signatures is specious. One person's "true believer" is another person's "crackpot".

Thanks for the compliment, Sid. (Yes, that should be served with irony sauce.)

The assumption that "true believer" equals blindly obedient crackpot is equally specious.  

If you don't see a difference between bussing paid petition circulators and downloading and circulating a petition because you believe in it, I doubt anything I can argue will make you see it.

I believe there is a difference, and I'm neither a crackpot nor blind.

Edited by Ro-Astarte, 24 September 2003 - 12:48 PM.


#18 Rhea

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 12:01 PM

What Ro said. If the majority of the people soliciting signatures for the recall had been folks like Kimmer, then I would have believed it was genuine grassroots effort rather than a bankrolled power play. Instead, they were non-residents bussed in from out of state.

Generally speaking, most of the folks out soliciting signatures for petitions in MY area, at least, are not generally paid to do it - they volunteer their time, and I often actually know them. THAT is a genuine effort.

Edited by Rhea, 24 September 2003 - 12:02 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#19 HubcapDave

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 02:39 PM

Rhea, on Sep 24 2003, 10:01 AM, said:

What Ro said. If the majority of the people soliciting signatures for the recall had been folks like Kimmer, then I would have believed it was genuine grassroots effort rather than a bankrolled power play. Instead, they were non-residents bussed in from out of state.

Generally speaking, most of the folks out soliciting signatures for petitions in MY area, at least, are not generally paid to do it - they volunteer their time, and I often actually know them. THAT is a genuine effort.
Again, however the signatures were collected doesn't really matter. It mattrers that the signatures were collected!

What does not get mentioned in all this is Davis' effort to hire up all the companies who collect signatures in the state to thwart the efforts in the first place. You don't think that didn't have an effect on the recall effort "bussing in" signature gatherers? But I digress.

The simple fact of that matter is that in excess of 1.5 million votes were collected to initiate the recall, twice what was needed to initiate the recall.

#20 Banapis

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 02:41 PM

Banapis, on Sep 24 2003, 01:08 AM, said:

After reading that, I thought it was *finally* safe to say that the CA recall couldn't get any weirder than that.

Then I saw this:

http://votearianna.com/cleanhouse/
OK, maybe nobody else thought that was hysterically funny.  :blush:  At any rate, I saw it on "Countdown" last night where, incidentally,  Keith Olberman also had Issa on as a guest.  He's now done a 180 on his statements about voting against the recall and keeping Gray.

Quote

OLBERMANN: Relative to the lesser of how many ever evils are on the playing field for you here, is the suggestion that sticking with Governor Davis would be lesser of an evil, from your point of view, than would be the installation of Cruz Bustamante as the new governor of the state of California?

ISSA: No. The worst case is to having a uniquely failed governor remain. The people of California clearly want Gray Davis gone.

As for his comments that one of the Republican candidates should drop out he assures everyone:

Quote

Right now-and Iím not picking sides at all.

And it was very clear that he wasn't picking sides when he said:

Quote

But right now, everyone understands that, with Tom McClintock having less than half the votes, itís his decision to make. And thatís going to be something heís going to have to soul-search in the next day, probably after the debate, going to have to make an announcement, or Iíll have to make an announcement.

So he's not picking sides, but McClintock better drop out "or [he'll] have to make an announcement." What type of announcement Mr. Congressman?

Quote

Either the candidate gets out, which I proposed yesterday. Or, if they wonít get out by Friday or Saturday, then Iím going to weigh in. Iím going to weigh in very strongly for the benefit of the people of California and ask people who believed in me and who believed in the recall to also believe in the candidate that I choose... if we still have two candidates come the weekend, Iím going to have to do that.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/971246.asp

Banapis

Edited by Banapis, 24 September 2003 - 02:42 PM.




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