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Agents of SHIELD: Scars

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#1 G-man

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 07:51 AM

I KNEW IT!  Well, I didn't KNOW it, per se, but I was hoping, given what I saw in Age of Ultron.  Theta Protocol = recommissioning of the Helicarrier (please let it be called the Dooley if not the Margaret Carter).  It was nice to see someone admit that recommissioning and crewing such a large vessel would be an enormous undertaking that would take much time.

Unfortunately(?) they kinda finessed the whole rapproachment angle.  Coulson remains the director, but has retained the Gonzales' council to act as his advisors in an effort to integrate the two factions.  However, Mack is leaving because he doesn't trust Coulson; May is pissed because when it comes to Skye she doesn't trust Coulson; OTOH, it was nice to see Skye, Fitz and Simmons back together again.  Pity that SHIELD doesn't realize how they would appear to a population that seeks to remain hidden, and just what a threat Indexing would prove to be, especially should it fall into the wrong hands.

Gonzales attempt to soft-sell the program to Jiaying was ... pathetic.  Frankly, he doesn't come across as the type to make compromises, and he is surprised when his proposed program is rejected.  Albeit, Jiaying's reaction was ... well, I'm still reeling from it, though I do understand her thinking behind it.  Indexing allows ANYONE to be able to identify an Inhuman, leaving them no means to retain their anonymity, and Humanity does have a bad track record when it comes to simply "getting along".  Unfortunately, I don't see SHIELD offering any kind of compromise that wouldn't include Indexing, and I think the Index was the deal-breaker.

Now, the terrigen crystal being an Inhuman construct with diviner impurities within ... OK, that was an interesting reveal.  That she used it on Gonzales, yeah, declaration of war.  That she intended to use it on Coulson ... that's disheartening.

Alas, both SHIELD and the Inhumans are acting out of fear of the other, and in this instance, I can see both sides' arguments.  

Rayna, I rather liked Cal's summation of her.  She is resourceful, but she is greedy.  She is manipulative, always seeking her own advantage, and her gift is something that can give her much influence.  Whether her motives now have turned altruistic, or she remains the grasping individual that she was, or that she was trying to be altruistic and their rebuff would cause her to revert to form is still open to question, but I think Cal pretty much nailed her personality.

Bobbi, yeah, she was distracted.  She was distracted by Hunter rebuffs, she was distracted by Mack's leaving, but how could she have missed that May was going to be piloting the gang out to Afterlife?  Admittedly, I don't recall her being in the meeting where the decision on how to approach the Inhumans was being made, one would've thought that someone would've briefed her ... I guess she thought it was May, who was piloting her out to the Inhuman fastness so they could scout it out ahead of the regular party.  

But, was Bobbi present when Kara/Agent 33 was being conditioned by Whitehall and Bakshi?  What is Kara's beef with Bobbi?  Could Bobbi have been the one who had captured Kara in the first place?

What is up with that Kree stone?  It looked like it possibly housed some of the diviners, but it turns liquid in the presence of the Inhumans.  Is it actually a means of destroying them, or is it something else?

And anticipating that SHIELD and Jiaying's Inhumans are going to come to blows next week, just where are they going for the season finale?

Stay tuned, True Believers, and find out!

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 06 May 2015 - 08:01 AM.

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#2 Cybersnark

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:07 AM

The helicarrier wasn't the plot-hole I needed filled (It's Fury, of course he'd have an off-the-books helicarrier in his back pocket). I was hoping Theta Protocol would be the new Avengers facility in upstate New York. It seems more like the sort of thing Coulson would prioritize.

And we can't be sure Jiaying was planning to use the crystal on Coulson. She only brought it out after sounding out Gonzales on the Index; she was responding to his answers. It's possible Coulson would've been more flexible on that point (that lack of objectivity is not a weakness), and she wouldn't have needed her trump card.

On one hand, this is a declaration of war, but the bright side is that it leaves Coulson intact to hopefully defuse this mess.
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#3 BklnScott

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 11:17 AM

But Coulson did build that facility, didn't he? 400 beds?

Theta Protocol might refer specifically to the helicarrier, but he was quietly working on a number of things for Fury and Hill - finding the scepter, building the upstate facility, hiding the helicarrier. Perhaps other stuff too. At least, that's what I took from it.

Edited by BklnScott, 06 May 2015 - 11:19 AM.

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#4 G-man

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 11:33 AM

^^^ Possibly, or 400 beds could mean a hospital/emergency care center or even something acquired for the Helicarrier.

However, with Jiaying, the thing is, she had the terrigen crystal on hand when she was expecting to meet with Coulson, she had not expected to meet Gonzales.  Consequently, its use was always an option she maintained, no matter who she had meant with.

One would hope that she wouldn't have felt compelled to use it against Coulson as she did against Gonzales, given Coulson's treatment of, and concern for, Skye.  Therefore she might've at least been more agreeable to discuss the matter at length until they could arrive a mutually acceptable compromise or both could accept they had arrived at an impasse.

Unfortunately, I think the Index was a make or break issue for both sides, SHIELD wanting them Indexed (all the better to contain them) and the Inhumans not wanting to be Indexed for their own continual safety and freedom.

Even had Coulson agreed to allow the Inhumans to remain un-Indexed, I do not believe he could then have expected to retain control over SHIELD, as the members of Gonzales-gang would simply assume he's gone over to the other side.  This "you're either with us or against us" mentality of Gonzales precludes the possibility of suffering a neutral independent.

And by SHIELD actually appearing in and around Afterlife, whether they meant it or not, was a power-play that made manifest that the Inhumans could no longer consider Afterlife a safe haven from a hostile world.  Consequently, I can see how Jiaying would consider her people backed in a corner ... especially as she felt that their continued anonymity was essential to their continued survival.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 06 May 2015 - 01:50 PM.

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#5 BklnScott

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 11:53 AM

That's an interesting point - what if she HAD tried to use the mist on Coulson?

Methinks he would not have turned to stone. . .

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#6 Christopher

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 12:51 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 06 May 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

But Coulson did build that facility, didn't he? 400 beds?

Presumably those beds were for the Helicarrier support staff. It would've taken a lot of people to keep that thing operational and ready for action.

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#7 BklnScott

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 01:23 PM

Oh - It's a time jump.

The movie is a lot to take in… :)

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#8 G-man

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 01:49 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 06 May 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

That's an interesting point - what if she HAD tried to use the mist on Coulson?

Methinks he would not have turned to stone. . .

Well ... maybe.

Remember, Coulson reacted to the GH325 in the same manner as the other "normal" humans, his symptoms were only delayed by the TAHITI treatment, and it was only when the mystery was solved did he recover (more or less); in contrast, Skye suffered no side-effects after being injected with the same serum, being the same after as she was before, probably due to that Inhuman factor in her blood that had yet to manifest.

OTOH, even if he had survived and became something more, would the rest of SHIELD have retained Coulson in his role as Director, or would they consider him (as they're already inclined to) as being hopelessly compromised, to be removed from his position of authority?

In short, I can't really see how there could be a Win-Win scenario available for SHIELD and the Inhumans, where both would get what they desired.

Maybe ... MAYBE, if it had simply been between Phil and Jiaying, something might've been worked out, but that would've required those in SHIELD having absolute faith in Coulson's judgement, and one thing this season has been about is that loss/lack of faith.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 08 May 2015 - 12:19 PM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

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#9 Christopher

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 03:20 PM

View PostG-man, on 06 May 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Maybe ... MAYBE, if it had simply been between Phil and Jiaying, something might've been worked out, but that would've required those in SHIELD having absolute faith in Coulson's judgement, and one thing this season has been about is that loss/lack of faith.

I don't think so. Jiaying had the deadly crystal with her when she was expecting Coulson, and she'd already conspired with Cal (I assume) to have him fake his surrender and take his Mr. Hyde potion. And Gonzales was remarkably understanding and conciliatory in the meeting, so I'm not sure what Coulson could've done differently.

Jiaying murdered a man who came to negotiate with her in good faith, then shot herself twice to frame him for it, so that she'd have an excuse to start a war. This was not a sudden impulse or something that Gonzales provoked. This is what she intended to do from the start, what she would certainly have done to Coulson had he come.
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#10 RJDiogenes

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 07:03 PM

Not the best episode ever.  It kind of took me back to the bad old days of the HYDRA reveal, when everyone had to act out of character for it to work.  So Theta Protocol is a heli-carrier.  That's cool, but why keep it a secret from May?  There's no reason why she couldn't, and shouldn't, have known about it.  And now May is back to her forced conflict with Coulson mode.  And we have a mole who betrayed the team-- at least it only took one episode this time, and you could see it coming a mile away (unless you work for SHIELD).

Mack, at least, wasn't out of character in leaving, but I was disappointed anyway.  I really wanted him to reconcile with Fitz and stay with the team.  Maybe it will still happen, but I imagine that a war with the Inhumans will only convince him that he was right.

And it looks like Jiaying is even crazier than Cal. Did she conspire with him to get him on the quinjet, or trick him, knowing that he'd go berserk when he found out that she had been "shot by Gonzalez?"   In any case, very disappointing again, because once again Skye is betrayed by family-- although it looks like she will take their side against SHIELD next week.  Hopefully that's a red herring.

And Gonzalez turned out to be a dud.  The Big Man who took away the directorship from Coulson with his hard-line attitude and superior resources suddenly concedes because of off-screen events in a movie and then is unceremoniously killed off.  So much for that plot.

Hopefully the finale will be better.
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#11 Orpheus

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 12:57 AM

I definitely found this episode jarring. There were too many things that didn't make sense.

I don't necessarily believe that Jiaying intended to kill Coulsen; she may have simply kept the crystal in reserve as a secret weapon if needed -- much as Gonzales received "a secret weapon" at the last minute before leaving to meet her -- which, I note, he played almost immediately. Either he planned to use his secret weapon regardless, or something she said gave him serious doubts.

More on that in a follow-up post, but please indulge me in what may just be overthinking (I was, if you will recall, a founder of Overthinkers Anonymous on SlipstreamBBS, and author of its foundational work) on "the opposing secret weapons"

WHY would the coin-pendant be a "secret weapon? Because it would be an emotional prybar against an emotional woman? I don't buy that for an instant, and I can't believe the show would besmirch Olmos/Gonzales by expecting us to believe that. Gonzales has worked with (and under, q.v Maria Hill) strong capable women to whom feminity [rightfully] did not mean any weakness/emotionality beyond a strong man [q.v. Colson displayed admirable strength in acknowledging his underlying emotionality this week; I'd feel better about modern humanity if female characters would ever be seen as 'strong' for equally acknowledging their emotionality]

No, it was a secret weapon in some other sense. Personally I think it contained a recently embedded tracker (or worse) because that would tie in so well to the dialogue around the time he presented it (Jiaying's remark "I had hoped evil would never FIND her as it FOUND me", and the discussion of indexing, which, as we've seen, included not just characterizing, but keeping track of, "specials"). It could have been something worse [foreshadowed by the way he passed it over like a bomb, urging HER to open it, to which she reacted with obvious distrust and hesitation]

As an Overthinker, I must mention that the characters on the medallion are not even close to modern Mandarin AFAICT. They aren't even four (or more) characters arrayed at the cardinal points [traditional for medallions vs coins of commerce] but I think the staff [and Shield] would know better than to bluff that detail to a native Chinese woman -- much less, intend it to mean something.

The Crystal may have meant something else. For example, it may have been meant as a test of Coulson (a 'diviner', but stripped of its dangerous power). Jiaying may have had the same questions we have about the depth and significance of Coulson's changes. Is he now Blue Alien (not necessarily a good thing) or still driven by their agenda (they wanted the Chosen dead)? Is he now himself a Chosen? Is he now just Human? (not neccessarily a bad think to her, given the alternatives) Consider: she has many diviners, and merely touching Colson, or tricking him into touching it, would have been a test. Why did it have to be made into a crystal? Was it used as she had planned, or did she smash it in a last moment improvisation?

This much is certain: Jiaying would not have planned to murder Skye's father-figure Colson without giving strong consideration to how Skye would react. Maybe she (and Cal) underestimated that bond. Maybe the theatric "He tried to kill me, your mother" was meant to be enough. It's  certainly hard for me to think they expected SHIELD to let him aboard the QuinJet with those vials of "muscle milk" [Maybe he has more, maybe he has already taken some -- hence the broken table. Maybe something else -- but don't tell me they weren't meant to find the vials they found]

Yet JiaYing declared war. Against whom -- maybe not exactly whom we now assume, but it does mean war. Close enough.

More later.

#12 G-man

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 07:44 AM

View PostChristopher, on 06 May 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

View PostG-man, on 06 May 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Maybe ... MAYBE, if it had simply been between Phil and Jiaying, something might've been worked out, but that would've required those in SHIELD having absolute faith in Coulson's judgement, and one thing this season has been about is that loss/lack of faith.

I don't think so. Jiaying had the deadly crystal with her when she was expecting Coulson, and she'd already conspired with Cal (I assume) to have him fake his surrender and take his Mr. Hyde potion. And Gonzales was remarkably understanding and conciliatory in the meeting, so I'm not sure what Coulson could've done differently.

Jiaying murdered a man who came to negotiate with her in good faith, then shot herself twice to frame him for it, so that she'd have an excuse to start a war. This was not a sudden impulse or something that Gonzales provoked. This is what she intended to do from the start, what she would certainly have done to Coulson had he come.

Well, here's the thing ... sometimes it isn't so much the approach as the person making it.

Coulson had some credit due to Skye vouching for him, and Cal admitted that Coulson seemed to genuinely care for their daughter ... Gonzales had none of that.  Without that credit, I think that the negotiations were over before they even began.

Consequently, Gonzales attempts to establish rapport felt contrived,.  "Hey, HYDRA hurt you, they hurt me, too.  We have something in common."  Then he basically fumbled the whole handing over the medallion, by requiring Jiaying to open the box herself while remaining cagey about what's inside (see Orpheus' post above).  OK, it proved to be the medallion that SHIELD had uncovered in their cache from when they had taken her child away from her.  Yeah.  Really not the best opening for Gonzales to make, especially when he states that the Inhumans being Indexed was a requirement for SHIELD to suffer their continued existance.  This wasn't a discussion, this wasn't open to negotiation, this was a demand ... with Jiaying being able to deduce what a refusal of it would mean.  And that demand especially wouldn't go over well with someone who had witnessed what happens when minorities are marked by those in power.

And did I forget to mention that he brought a loaded pistol into her presence?  Hardly the actions of someone who is supposed to have come in peace, and only wanted to talk.  Also, I believe that in Diplomatic circles, it is considered not only a faux pas, but a major breach of etiquette and is considered a studied insult (if not threat) to the host.

Chances are, given how he had approached Coulson, had Jiaying refused his "request" he would've taken her hostage and called in the troops to force compliance on the Inhumans.  It wasn't by accident that he had brought the two other Quinjets, probably loaded with SHIELD Stormtroops, to escort him and the council (why were they going along?) to Afterlife.  This was very much a power-play, where Gonzales intended SHIELD to come out on top.

Face it, Gonzales was very much the wrong person to make the approach to Jiaying.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 07 May 2015 - 07:59 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#13 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 08:27 AM

Agreed that this episode was not a good one, or at least, very little good happened in it.

To be sure, any episode which contains the following dialog has problems:

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Skye: These are good people, Coulson.
Coulson: Are they?  People, I mean?

Are they people?!?  Shame on you Coulson!  You know better than that!  :mad:

And that was just the beginning.  :headshake:

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#14 Christopher

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 08:46 AM

View PostOrpheus, on 07 May 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

I don't necessarily believe that Jiaying intended to kill Coulsen; she may have simply kept the crystal in reserve as a secret weapon if needed -- much as Gonzales received "a secret weapon" at the last minute before leaving to meet her -- which, I note, he played almost immediately. Either he planned to use his secret weapon regardless, or something she said gave him serious doubts.

I disagree. Remember, she turned over Cal before she attacked Gonzales. And when Cal was turned over, he was carrying several empty vials that he smugly pretended not to recognize. Clearly, he had already taken his Mr. Hyde serum before turning himself over. And where did he get that serum? He couldn't have had it on him already, given that he'd been in the Inhumans' custody the whole time, and was presumably searched following his return from his little jaunt with Skye. So he would've had to make it, and he couldn't have gotten the resources to do so without Jiaying's consent.

So Jiaying and Cal must have already been conspiring to attack SHIELD even before the meeting with Gonzales. She turned him over as her Trojan Horse to attack SHIELD from the inside, then faked Gonzales's attack on her to trick the Inhumans into fighting SHIELD from the outside.



Quote

WHY would the coin-pendant be a "secret weapon? Because it would be an emotional prybar against an emotional woman? I don't buy that for an instant, and I can't believe the show would besmirch Olmos/Gonzales by expecting us to believe that. Gonzales has worked with (and under, q.v Maria Hill) strong capable women to whom feminity [rightfully] did not mean any weakness/emotionality beyond a strong man [q.v. Colson displayed admirable strength in acknowledging his underlying emotionality this week; I'd feel better about modern humanity if female characters would ever be seen as 'strong' for equally acknowledging their emotionality]

No, it was a secret weapon in some other sense. Personally I think it contained a recently embedded tracker (or worse) because that would tie in so well to the dialogue around the time he presented it (Jiaying's remark "I had hoped evil would never FIND her as it FOUND me", and the discussion of indexing, which, as we've seen, included not just characterizing, but keeping track of, "specials"). It could have been something worse [foreshadowed by the way he passed it over like a bomb, urging HER to open it, to which she reacted with obvious distrust and hesitation]

The "secret weapon" line was a red herring. We were supposed to think that Gonzales was up to no good, but that was a misdirect, every bit as much as Jiaying's gentleness and Cal's remorse were. I think Gonzales sincerely wanted to negotiate in good faith, and he was using "weapon" metaphorically for something that he hoped would help create some trust. He proved to be a better man than we'd thought he was, and that was mirrored by Jiaying proving to be a more bitter, twisted, and malevolent woman than we'd thought she was.



View PostG-man, on 07 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

Coulson had some credit due to Skye vouching for him, and Cal admitted that Coulson seemed to genuinely care for their daughter ... Gonzales had none of that.  Without that credit, I think that the negotiations were over before they even began.

Consequently, Gonzales attempts to establish rapport felt contrived,.  "Hey, HYDRA hurt you, they hurt me, too.  We have something in common."  Then he basically fumbled the whole handing over the medallion, by requiring Jiaying to open the box herself while remaining cagey about what's inside (see Orpheus' post above).

Now, that was part of the writers' misdirect, trying to make us think he was springing a trap on her, so that we'd be suitably surprised and impressed when it turned out to be a conciliatory gesture. This was all about the writers trying to make us think the characters had one intention and then revealing that they'd had another all along. Maybe they made the illusion too convincing.


Quote

Face it, Gonzales was very much the wrong person to make the approach to Jiaying.


That's what we were supposed to think. He surprised us in the end, but Jiaying had already set her own plan into motion. He was already doomed the moment he walked in that door, and Coulson would've been too.

Look, I have no reason to be arbitrarily biased against Jiaying. I'm deeply saddened that she turned out to be treacherous; it's the last thing I wanted to believe. But the chain of circumstances is, to me, unambiguous. She must have arranged for Cal to produce and take his serum, and she must have done it before SHIELD and Gonzales arrived, before she even knew that she'd be meeting with anyone other than Coulson. Therefore, she was already planning to turn on Coulson. Cal couldn't have been just a contingency plan in case things went south. I mean, we all know Cal by this point. Once you set him loose, there's no controlling him. She's already lit the fuse on the firebomb, and it can't be stopped. Therefore, it must have been her intention from the start to begin this war.

And really, though it's saddening, it's not that surprising. Whitehall vivisected her, chopped her to pieces while she was alive and conscious. Her scars must run far deeper than what we see on her face. That trauma would've given her a deep hatred and mistrust of any outsiders who want to gain any kind of power over her people. She wouldn't draw a distinction between HYDRA and SHIELD, or between Gonzales and Coulson. To her, they're all just facets of the same threat, and she's too blinded by her pain and rage at what Whitehall did to her to see any difference. It's one of those things you don't see coming, but that make perfect sense in retrospect. Of course her ordeal at Whitehall's hands would've changed her, hardened her, no matter how gentle a facade she projected.
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#15 G-man

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 09:21 AM

View PostChristopher, on 07 May 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

View PostG-man, on 07 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

Coulson had some credit due to Skye vouching for him, and Cal admitted that Coulson seemed to genuinely care for their daughter ... Gonzales had none of that.  Without that credit, I think that the negotiations were over before they even began.

Consequently, Gonzales attempts to establish rapport felt contrived,.  "Hey, HYDRA hurt you, they hurt me, too.  We have something in common."  Then he basically fumbled the whole handing over the medallion, by requiring Jiaying to open the box herself while remaining cagey about what's inside (see Orpheus' post above).

Now, that was part of the writers' misdirect, trying to make us think he was springing a trap on her, so that we'd be suitably surprised and impressed when it turned out to be a conciliatory gesture. This was all about the writers trying to make us think the characters had one intention and then revealing that they'd had another all along. Maybe they made the illusion too convincing.

Yeah, it was meant as a misdirect to the audience; but it depicted Gonzales as being rather tin-eared when dealing with an unknown.  His bringing a gun to the meeting was another indication of his ineptitude.

Quote

Quote

Face it, Gonzales was very much the wrong person to make the approach to Jiaying.

That's what we were supposed to think. He surprised us in the end, but Jiaying had already set her own plan into motion. He was already doomed the moment he walked in that door, and Coulson would've been too.

No.  Gonzales was the wrong person to send.  He might've had honorable intentions, but his fear of the unknown dictated his actions, and those actions undermined any and all good intentions he might've had.

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Look, I have no reason to be arbitrarily biased against Jiaying. I'm deeply saddened that she turned out to be treacherous; it's the last thing I wanted to believe. But the chain of circumstances is, to me, unambiguous. She must have arranged for Cal to produce and take his serum, and she must have done it before SHIELD and Gonzales arrived, before she even knew that she'd be meeting with anyone other than Coulson. Therefore, she was already planning to turn on Coulson. Cal couldn't have been just a contingency plan in case things went south. I mean, we all know Cal by this point. Once you set him loose, there's no controlling him. She's already lit the fuse on the firebomb, and it can't be stopped. Therefore, it must have been her intention from the start to begin this war.

On that, we agree.  

Of course, like Gonzales, Jiaying's actions were dictated to by her fear, for herself, her family, and her people -- especially in light of her experience.

So, what we had were two fearful people both taking precautions in anticipation of the other's treachery, the only difference is that Jiaying shot first.

Had it been Coulson, my thinking is that he may have presented a far less fearsome front than Gonzales, and Jiaying may've hesitated before pulling the trigger.

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And really, though it's saddening, it's not that surprising. Whitehall vivisected her, chopped her to pieces while she was alive and conscious. Her scars must run far deeper than what we see on her face. That trauma would've given her a deep hatred and mistrust of any outsiders who want to gain any kind of power over her people. She wouldn't draw a distinction between HYDRA and SHIELD, or between Gonzales and Coulson. To her, they're all just facets of the same threat, and she's too blinded by her pain and rage at what Whitehall did to her to see any difference. It's one of those things you don't see coming, but that make perfect sense in retrospect. Of course her ordeal at Whitehall's hands would've changed her, hardened her, no matter how gentle a facade she projected.

Is there any difference?  Outsiders wish to know the specifics of her community, and use such knowledge to keep them from running amok, if not exploit them for their own end.  The only proven way for peaceful co-existance for the Inhumans was to remain anonymous, unknown and at large, and that is no longer possible.

Afterall, how long after they have all been identified and indexed will it be before a decision is made by "outsiders," for the greater good, to then confine the Inhumans?

And after that, how long will it be when the decision arises to either "cure" them or sacrifice them?  After all, SHIELD isn't so much concerned about the Inhumans' well-being as they are about Humanity's, and unfortunately SHIELD (at least as espoused by Gonzales and, unfortunately, Coulson) does not consider the two to be one and the same, but rather distinct and separate.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 07 May 2015 - 10:36 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#16 BklnScott

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 11:09 AM

I see a lot of criticism of Jiaying in this episode but I dunno. Indexing would be a deal breaker for me too and I'd have a hard time looking at the quasi-military force demanding to index me as part of the "good guys." Also: SHIELD did snatch her kid, right?

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There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#17 FarscapeOne

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 11:35 AM

I wonder if Mack will go to the spinoff.  I would like to see that.

#18 G-man

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 11:49 AM

Yes-indeedy, Scott.  Something that Gonzales all but admitted when handing over the medallion.

As I said, Gonzales displayed an appalling amount of ineptitude, and insensitivity, when he went into that meeting.  Of course, SHIELD was so afraid of the Inhumans, that they ignored the probability that the Inhumans would be afraid of SHIELD.  Consequently, no effort was made to understand where the other side was coming from, and worse, no attempt was made to diffuse the tension before they met.

Instead SHIELD's plan was one of Intimidation:  Since [SHIELD] know where Afterlife is, let's arrive in force at the Inhuman's hide-out and demand that they submit to us :facepalm-f7e:  
There was really no way that was going to end well -- for all that it was in keeping with SHIELD's "Welcome Wagon Protocol".

Which is why I wished that Season 1 would've had Skye challenging more of SHIELD's protocols instead of simply going along with them.  Yeah, there are reasons why they do what they do, especially given what they face, but it doesn't make those tactics any less high-handed and dictatorial.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 07 May 2015 - 11:56 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#19 G-man

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 12:32 PM

Oh, yeah, May's estrangement from Coulson ...

The problem with this development is that we really do not know what is going on in May's mind.  She is both inscrutable and mercurial.

After SHIELD collapsed and Coulson discovered that May played him and was reporting on him to Fury, instead of weathering his displeasure until he had time to fully process everything, she left because she no longer felt the love.  Coincidentally, forstalling a confrontation with Ward and leaving the base and Skye vulnerable to his betrayal.  So, does this mean if she feels she's not fully trusted and in on all the secrets, she's always going to walk off?

After Coulson went on the run from Gonzales' Gang, and Gonzales sought to recruit her, she seemingly swallows all the information Gonzales' Gang provided without reservation -- nevermind that they had resorted to lies, subterfuge, and outright assault in dealing with Coulson instead of approaching him openly.  Given SHIELD's penchant for lies, misdirection and subterfuge, why wouldn't she be more suspicious of the information they are supplying her?

Then, she is shocked, SHOCKED, that Coulson, her best bud, the man who trusted her to put him down kept secrets from her.  OK, I guess that thinking you're someone's confidante, to discover that they were still keeping secrets from you would be disconcerting ... except that the last time Coulson had treated her as a confidante, the secrets they shared didn't stay between them.  Yeah.  Trust issues.

So, let's take a look at what secrets he kept from her:  The recommissioning of the Helicarrier (aka Theta Protocol); and seeing her Ex.

Theta Protocol, one would assume that Coulson kept this secret from his crew at the behest of Fury; so really, there should be no hard feelings there, since she had done the same thing to Coulson in the not-too-distant past.

That leaves the Ex.  OK, Coulson went to the Ex for therapy.  Ummm ... if so, why keep that secret from May?  Embarrassment that he wasn't in control and needed help?  May already knew that.  Heck, he gave May explicit orders to put him down if he DID lose control.  So, why hide that he was in therapy?  I can see wanting to keep it secret from the team, as he was keeping secret his compulsive wall-scribbling, but why keep it secret from May?  My guess is that Coulson wasn't seeing May's Ex for therapy sessions, but for some other, as yet undisclosed reason, and that Coulson is STILL lying to May.

Which begs the question, is May really angry with Coulson, or simply growing frustrated with all the secrets swirling around her?  I can see the latter, but the former ... I'd expect better from her.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 07 May 2015 - 02:11 PM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#20 Orpheus

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 01:47 PM

Coulson: "Are they? People, I mean?"

That line REALLY bothered me. As soon as I heard it, I imagined Skye responding:

"Is Thor a person? Am I? How about you, Coulson? Let's leave 'racial purity' to Nazi-Hydras."

Unless Coulson thinks they're actually robots or some sort of illusion, that was uncharacteristic for him.



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