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Agents of SHIELD: Scars

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#21 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 04:18 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 07 May 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Coulson: "Are they? People, I mean?"

That line REALLY bothered me. As soon as I heard it, I imagined Skye responding:

"Is Thor a person? Am I? How about you, Coulson? Let's leave 'racial purity' to Nazi-Hydras."

Unless Coulson thinks they're actually robots or some sort of illusion, that was uncharacteristic for him.

Thank you.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught that line.

As disturbing as that sort of thing is from anyone, at least from someone like Gonzales it is no longer surprising.  But it is extremely surprising to hear it from Coulson.  I expect a LOT more than that from him!  :eek:

It was particularly noticeable to me, because I saw that scene out of context before hand.  (My friend Torrie keeps my supplied with SHIELD sneak peeks, and behind the scenes tidbits.  ;)  For example did you know that Chloe Bennet and Brett Dalton personally ship SkyeWard as endgame?  :oh:  BTW, Torrie is really mad at Ward after this episode.  :unsure: )

For emphasis, here is that scene again:



SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 07 May 2015 - 04:18 PM.

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#22 sierraleone

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 05:08 PM

I noticed that line too. :grr:

I wonder if Skye is going to end up leaving SHIELD/joining the Inhumans. And perhaps that was sort of reasoning behind the writers putting in that line, to ensure a bit of distrust between Skye and Coulson/SHIELD.

No one is really going to now what happened or why, except Jiaying and Cal. (Rayna might have insight to one degree or another, but try to convince ANY party of that when absolutely no one shown to be important trusts you...)

Can Coulson convince Skye (assuming he gets the opportunity) that he has nothing to do with 'Gonzales shooting Jiaying? And further convince her that he has enough reign on SHIELD that that won't happen again? (good luck convincing her of the truth, when and if it is found out, unless it is from one of her parent's lips).

Whether she believes/knows the lies and/or the truth (or switches), she is also going to empathize with the Inhumans and her parents for plenty of reasons. If she didn't believe their own stories/history and/or thought better of SHIELD (even after HYDRA reveal), her own experiences since Puerto Rico will help put her more on their side after this point.

Heck, after Skye learns the truth, and/or just empathizing with her parents/Inhumans history before this event, might make her be more sympathetic to other amoral/immoral characters, like Ward and Kara.

What was Ward's plan? Was it basically to help Kara exact revenge on Bobbi? What are their plans after?

Who on SHIELD will in Skye's corner after this, especially if Skye splits? Coulson, maybe, thinking/knowing that she justifiably now either thinks the worse of him, or at the very least doesn't trust SHIELD as a whole. If May was sympathetic to Inhumans before Skye throwing Bahrain/the Cavalry story into May's face isn't going to help, and may actually make May more wary of Inhumans based on experience. Simmons they have shown all this season to have trouble with Inhumans. Out of the old crew, Fitz is the only one, other than Coulson, who could expected to be dependably in Skye's corner. I am not sure about the new characters introduced this season, as not sure if the Inhumans came up for all of them.... Bobbi you would expect to be in support of Skye at least, but Bobbi is getting her own show IIRC ;) And it will be complicated by any conflict between SHIELD and Inhumans, and Bobbi's understand of what happened to Gonzales. Maybe they'll cross each other's paths at some point :D

I also wonder, with this whole war cry from Jiayang, will that influence the Inhumans to abandon their measure and careful planned procedures for awakening dormant Inhuman genes in their population?

Edited by sierraleone, 07 May 2015 - 05:14 PM.

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Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#23 G-man

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 06:15 PM

Yeah, I noticed that line as well.  So what I'd be asking is just what that line revealed?

Coulson has it from the Kree, and Lady Sif, that the Inhumans were the result of a secret Kree weapons program.  Add into this, SHIELD has only dealt with those who were running amok, so Coulson has really only got a bad impression of them, with the only other experience being Skye, and Rayna.

So, the question might be in earnest, as SHIELD never knew what an Inhuman was, save as a person with powers.

Alternatively, Coulson may've been asking in the hopes that Skye would answer 'yes' to help convince him that he could talk and reason with them, if only he could convince the rest of SHIELD of that.

/s/

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Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
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#24 Christopher

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 06:29 PM

View PostG-man, on 07 May 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

Had it been Coulson, my thinking is that he may have presented a far less fearsome front than Gonzales, and Jiaying may've hesitated before pulling the trigger.

Again, though, she'd already turned the formula-enhanced Cal over to SHIELD before she even knew she'd be meeting with Gonzales. The trigger had already been pulled -- Cal was the bullet, aimed at SHIELD HQ, and she fired him before Gonzales even came into the room. So it wouldn't have made any difference whether Gonzales or Coulson showed up. She'd already decided what she was going to do. Even if Coulson had, by some miracle, been able to change her mind, it was too late to stop Cal.
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#25 RJDiogenes

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 06:40 PM

Yes, I noticed the "people" line, too.  I was not happy with that or the indexing.  The whole point of this show, I thought, was for Coulson to reinvent SHIELD as something better than it once was.  Both of those things belong more with old, corrupt SHIELD.

As for Jiaying, pretty much anybody with weapons experience will know that she shot herself if they get to take a look.  That should include Skye at this point.

Definitely not a good episode.  Maybe they have something planned for the finale that will redeem it somehow.
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#26 RJDiogenes

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 06:44 PM

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 07 May 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

For example did you know that Chloe Bennet and Brett Dalton personally ship SkyeWard as endgame?  :oh:  
That's kind of amazing.  Of course, we've had precedents set in other shows, like Buffy, where psychopathic mass murderers have been rehabilitated.

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BTW, Torrie is really mad at Ward after this episode.  :unsure: )  
I suspect that she will have a lot more to be mad about as time goes on.  :(
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#27 G-man

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 06:58 AM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 07 May 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Yes, I noticed the "people" line, too.  I was not happy with that or the indexing.  The whole point of this show, I thought, was for Coulson to reinvent SHIELD as something better than it once was.  Both of those things belong more with old, corrupt SHIELD.

Old habits die hard, they say.  Unfortunately, SHIELD's mission remains the same, but they've just run into something that they had never considered before, namely that there was more than Humanity living on Earth ... and consequently, have yet to consider whether their mandate to protect should be extended to include Inhumans, and maybe any potential sub-marine society they might encounter; or to limit it solely to Humanity which would naturally put them at odds with them other races.

Besides, Coulson already had a lot on his plate, what with trying to rebuild the organization, recommissioning the Helicarrier, fighting HYDRA, oh, and going a little funny in the head.  Trying to implement reforms as well would have probably been asking too much of our boy, especially as it not only involves devising new protocols and procedures, but also selling it to a crew that is used to the "traditional" methods.  Trust me, my own organization has been undergoing a re-org for the past two years, and the latest word is still: "Wait, we're still trying to figure stuff out."

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 08 May 2015 - 12:09 PM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#28 G-man

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 10:05 AM

View PostChristopher, on 07 May 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

View PostG-man, on 07 May 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

Had it been Coulson, my thinking is that he may have presented a far less fearsome front than Gonzales, and Jiaying may've hesitated before pulling the trigger.

Again, though, she'd already turned the formula-enhanced Cal over to SHIELD before she even knew she'd be meeting with Gonzales. The trigger had already been pulled -- Cal was the bullet, aimed at SHIELD HQ, and she fired him before Gonzales even came into the room. So it wouldn't have made any difference whether Gonzales or Coulson showed up. She'd already decided what she was going to do. Even if Coulson had, by some miracle, been able to change her mind, it was too late to stop Cal.

Unfortunately, SHIELD's mistake (and they made many) was to arrive uninvited, and in force, on the Inhuman's doorstep.  There is no way this act could ever be regarded as anything but hostile.

I'd argue, in light of being faced with a hostile force arriving on their doorstep, Jiaying's response was a necessary counter to off-set their advantage.  There can be no meaningful discussions between equals when one side insists on coming armed to the negotiation table.

As I said, fear was driving both sides actions; and as the Inhumans were already backed into a corner, it was incumbant on SHIELD  to attempt to diffuse the situation if they were really serious about arriving at a mutually acceptable, peaceful solution.

Admittedly, this would be totally contrary to SHIELD's customary practice of simply swooping in, establishing their supremacy, and taking whatever they want at the point of a gun "for the greater good," whether that seizure was justified or not.  Eventually, they were going to run into someone who would challenge their BS and have the wherewithal to fight back ... and thus we have our finale.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 08 May 2015 - 12:12 PM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#29 Cybersnark

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 11:30 AM

View PostChristopher, on 07 May 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

she'd already turned the formula-enhanced Cal over to SHIELD before she even knew she'd be meeting with Gonzales. The trigger had already been pulled -- Cal was the bullet, aimed at SHIELD HQ, and she fired him before Gonzales even came into the room. So it wouldn't have made any difference whether Gonzales or Coulson showed up. She'd already decided what she was going to do. Even if Coulson had, by some miracle, been able to change her mind, it was too late to stop Cal.
Not necessarily.

It's safe (for her) to assume SHIELD won't withdraw one of their jets just to ferry Cal, so he'll probably be staying put until the negotiations are finished. She could well have set up a signal;

-If Jiaying returns with the negotiator (to see him off), remain as their prisoner (we have what we wanted).
-If the negotiator returns without Jiaying, go along quietly and wait for a signal (it's not time to move yet).
-If the negotiator does not return, go berserk (we are at war).

And if all else fails, she has Gordon around and probably able to track Cal. In fact, that might have been another plan; demonstrate that the Inhumans are perfectly capable of policing themselves without SHIELD's intervention, while SHIELD has trouble handling one freakishly strong man. It would mean using Cal as a pawn, but I'm not sure that's beyond her.

For that matter, we can't be 100% sure it was her plan for Cal to have his serum on him. Or to have already dosed himself (why would he bring along a nearly-empty vial?). He's unlikely to betray Jiaying, but he'll also do whatever he thinks necessary to protect his Daisy, even if it means taking things into his own hands.
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#30 Christopher

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 11:34 AM

View PostCybersnark, on 08 May 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

For that matter, we can't be 100% sure it was her plan for Cal to have his serum on him. Or to have already dosed himself (why would he bring along a nearly-empty vial?). He's unlikely to betray Jiaying, but he'll also do whatever he thinks necessary to protect his Daisy, even if it means taking things into his own hands.

It had to be her plan. As I said, he's been in their custody the whole time, except during his brief trip with Skye, and I assume they searched him when he came back. I don't see how he could've made or taken the serum without Jiaying's consent and assistance, unless I'm missing something big about what happened when he was retrieved from his office building.
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#31 G-man

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 12:57 PM

Of course, another matter that they failed to address in the episode is the decades when SHIELD and HYDRA were one and the same, with HYDRA's crimes being committed and countenanced by SHIELD.  In fact, a lot of SHIELD's protocols were also HYDRA's protocols.  Thus, it was SHIELD whom Whitehall was now working who had captured and vivisected Jiaying, and Gonzales comment that he heard that she had been scarred by HYDRA, was really disingenuous.  He was essentially disavowing any responsibility on the part of SHIELD for what was done to her.

So, Jiaying already considered SHIELD hostile to her and the Inhumans.

To add insult to injury, it was SHIELD who had stolen her and Cal's daughter away.  Simply returning the medallion, would only inform her of that fact, and wouldn't be considered restitution for that crime, especially when Gonzales is demanding that the Inhumans submit to Indexing.

I dare say, not even Coulson had considered the Whitehall = SHIELD angle would lead to antipathy, even though he was conversant about Skye's background and may well have apologize for her abduction.

As Cybersnark demonstrated, Jiaying's actions were not irrevocable had the conversation gone another way; but as I said earlier, SHIELD (both Coulson and Gonzales) really blew it by appearing on the Inhumans doorstep, risking an immediate confrontation, as opposed to using Skye as an intermediary and try to ease into discussions with an unknown.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#32 BklnScott

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 02:30 PM

I think Chris is closer to the mark here. Jiaying's speech to Gonzalez right before she mists him is all about how she's basically immortal and as such has been to this party before. She's not buying what SHIELD is selling and she's right not to, IMO.

This will almost certainly be the conflict-within-SHIELD that animates Season 3 - over indexing. AKA, superhero registration. AKA, Civil War. See Cap 3.

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#33 RJDiogenes

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 07:10 PM

Indeed.  Coulson has to be made to see the light on both topics to retain his moral authority.
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#34 Cardie

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 01:38 AM

Just so you know, ABC didn't pick up the Bobbi-Hunter spinoff.

I don't enjoy superhero movies and resent that SHIELD periodically makes no sense to me because they've factored in events from the latest Marvel film release between one episode and another.
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#35 foborg

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 06:48 AM

Yeah, the start of this episode was really jarring for me, since I haven't seen the movie. It's as if I missed several eps of the series, where they resolved a lot of the ongoing threads.
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