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2016 Primaries and political debates

Election Primaries 2016

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#21 BklnScott

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:58 AM

View PostOmega, on 20 February 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

Bush just dropped out.

Let's all raise a glass to the death of the Bush Brand in American politics. It will be many years before another Bush dares to run for president.

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#22 3C273

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 01:24 PM

The problem with Cruz's citizenship goes beyond his being born in Calgary and not giving up his Canadian citizenship until recently, when pushed by Trump.  Cruz's parents registered to vote in Canadian elections, and voting in a foreign election immediately makes them lose US citizenship.  The registration papers with their names have been shown on Canadian tv.  They just never told US authorities about it.  I've lived in Calgary for over 40 years and, as a US citizen, I have never registered to vote in any Canadian election.

By the way, it is extremely easy to give up Canadian citizenship.  It is so much harder to give up US citizenship because of tax implications for 7 years after renunciation! In Canada - one just signs a document.  Cruz argued that he didn't give it up because he needed to consult a lawyer.  Nonsense.  Another Cruz lie.

#23 sierraleone

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:31 PM

I came across an article today that gives a different perspective that might explain a part of Trump's appeal. It might also explain part of the detest of political correctness and its use.

Edited by sierraleone, 22 February 2016 - 08:34 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#24 FarscapeOne

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 01:06 AM

It's a fair point.  I encounter that mentality from customers all the time... I refer to it as the "Rich B-tch Mentality", and I use it for men just as easily, too.  I absolutely HATE snobs, and that whole entitled mentality.  It seems more and more people habe it now as I have gotten older.

#25 cade

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 03:30 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 20 February 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

I'm also not understanding how Nevada, which is 3 hours behind the East Coast, was able to call the projected winner early in the afternoon. I mean what, did they just play the game of cards to determine the winner? and skip the entire primary voting process? Or did the so called Super Delegates get together and go "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"?

I don't think any of the problems you're citing will ultimately make any difference. Bernie never had a real chance against the Clinton machine. But yes, caucuses are absurd and "Democrats" run them in an especially undemocratic way by destroying the secret ballot and refusing to even publicly disclose vote totals. How they get away with this while touting themselves as "Democrats" tells you a lot about the state of their party and how disengaged their voters are from the process. If Democrats actually got to have a binding vote on what type of voting system they want, a caucus would never be held again. Unlike Republicans, Democrats firmly believe in making it easier to vote, not harder. They don't believe in making it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for the disabled and working poor to vote. They certainly don't believe in eliminating the secret ballot and allowing voter intimidation.

At least the Republican caucus in Iowa allowed for a secret ballot and they released actual vote totals. And while the GOP also has superdelegates they have far fewer than the Democrats. This is because the Democratic Party establishment has long been far more afraid of its base. The Republican base is no threat at all to corporate power, but genuine progressives are, especially because polls consistently show that their economic policies have widespread support.

This is the type of incompetence the disgraceful caucus system virtually guarantees:



#26 BklnScott

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 10:18 AM

View Postcade, on 23 February 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

But yes, caucuses are absurd and "Democrats" run them in an especially undemocratic way by destroying the secret ballot and refusing to even publicly disclose vote totals. How they get away with this while touting themselves as "Democrats" tells you a lot about the state of their party


What are you basing that judgment on? Surely not by comparison to the state of the other party, which is self-destructing before our eyes.

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#27 BklnScott

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 11:03 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 22 February 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

I came across an article today that gives a different perspective that might explain a part of Trump's appeal. It might also explain part of the detest of political correctness and its use.

It's an interesting outsider's perspective. I was struck that the writer doesn't seem to bake into his analysis the political power, legislative agenda, and beliefs of the white working class, as he calls them, over the past 30 or so years - during which time they experienced two distinct peaks of political power and influence, and used it to do what they thought should be done both domestically and abroad. Now this may well be a group whose fortunes have changed but if so it is because of their own wrong-headed, extremist ideas about public policy. They enthusiastically support and vote for the politicians who did this to them. If they voted for Democrats, they'd have a robust social safety net to fall back on in hard times - but then again, so would everyone else, including populations they (on the whole) don't support, e.g., blacks, hispanics, non-Christians, gays, et al. But the writer (a Brit who now lives in the DC area) makes it seem as if animus toward this cohort burst onto the scene fully-formed from the black hearts of the educated, liberal upper middle class. He argues that people like me are nursing a bigoted blind spot and that is horsesh*t. It's like arguing that you deserve compensation because you hurt your hand when you punched me in the face.

We didn't start the culture wars. Were we supposed to lose?

Edited by BklnScott, 23 February 2016 - 11:16 AM.

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#28 cade

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 01:38 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 23 February 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

View Postcade, on 23 February 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

But yes, caucuses are absurd and "Democrats" run them in an especially undemocratic way by destroying the secret ballot and refusing to even publicly disclose vote totals. How they get away with this while touting themselves as "Democrats" tells you a lot about the state of their party


What are you basing that judgment on? Surely not by comparison to the state of the other party, which is self-destructing before our eyes.

I based it on the fact that the Democratic Party runs caucuses in an even more undemocratic way than the Republicans do. As I said, suppressing the vote is a standard, widespread Republican tactic in general elections, so it's especially sad to see Democrats support such a restrictive voting system. But Bernie is no better on this than Hillary. I heard him effusively praise the caucus system even after Iowa was over.

#29 BklnScott

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 02:44 PM

How can a status quo that has existed for many years be saying something about the current state of the Democratic Party?

Seems to me like the process is working for the Democratic Party much as it has in the past. The establishment frontrunner, a center-left moderate and one of the most qualified aspirants to seek the office in modern times, is battling a more liberal insurgent, who is not popular enough to win the nomination outright but is popular enough to exert influence, insuring that the issues his partisans care about (especially income inequality) remain prominent in the general election and beyond. This is what a stable political party with a rational discourse between its moderate and base factions looks like. In other words, nothing like today's self-destructing GOP where your choices boil down to Hitler or Mussolini. Or the pretty face who can't go off-script, Marco Rubio.

Yeah... I like our odds.

Edited by BklnScott, 23 February 2016 - 02:53 PM.

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#30 cade

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 03:01 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 23 February 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

How can a status quo that has existed for many years be saying something about the current state of the Democratic Party?

I didn't say "current," though, I just said this is the state of the Democratic Party. It's long been this bad and of course used to be far worse. Actually it's gotten markedly better recently in one respect that was completely unintentional and terrifies the party elites: the ability for a fringe outsider like Bernie to get so many small donations through the internet that he can fundraise competitively with the big money establishment candidate.

As for the general election, I wish I had your optimism but Trump's unfathomable success has shellshocked me to the point that I give up predicting what will happen.

#31 Cait

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:57 AM

OK, I just can't wrap my head around this.  Trump took Nevada.  People are voting for him.  I mean actual people are voting for him.  

They say because he speaks to them and not at them.  That he taps into their anger.  I say, so what.  Let him lead the angry mob in an angry cheer.  But elect him to be the President of the United States?  Have people gone mad?  

He's an echo chamber.  He echoes the mood of a certain segment of the population.  An echo chamber can be President?  He's a messenger.  A narcissistic messenger, who is not qualified to run anything in the public sector, and his record in the private one isn't all that good either.

For the first time in my life, I am actually hoping there is a shadow government that has been running things all along, and that this nightmare isn't so bad after all.  No, seriously, I am actually thinking that.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 08:09 AM

View PostCait, on 24 February 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

OK, I just can't wrap my head around this.  Trump took Nevada.  People are voting for him.  I mean actual people are voting for him.  

They say because he speaks to them and not at them.  That he taps into their anger.  I say, so what.  Let him lead the angry mob in an angry cheer.  But elect him to be the President of the United States?  Have people gone mad?  

He's an echo chamber.  He echoes the mood of a certain segment of the population.  An echo chamber can be President?  He's a messenger.  A narcissistic messenger, who is not qualified to run anything in the public sector, and his record in the private one isn't all that good either.

For the first time in my life, I am actually hoping there is a shadow government that has been running things all along, and that this nightmare isn't so bad after all.  No, seriously, I am actually thinking that.

Do you want to know the truth about just WHY Trump is doing so good? I'll even clarify and say it might not be the whole truth, but it is what I believe to be true...

The reason I think Trump is SO popular is two fold: You have Obama who is literally caring nothing about his own legacy now. Hell, Obama is even talking about bringing the worst of the worst terrorists at Gitmo to US soil. No wonder he's not worried about terrorists coming in as refugees, he's planning on shipping terrorists to our backyards wholesale. And just imagine that recent prison break, where two inmates escaped because a guard helped them. Now just imagine if it had been terrorists that had escaped...So despite Obama's claims of "All is good, nothing to see here." The threat is VERY real.

Now Congress has blocked such moves by Obama...but that is ALL they have done. The Republicans took back the Senate, and a record number of House seats, all on the promise of standing up to Obama and his unconstitutional actions, and power grabs. And the very FIRST chance they get at standing up to him, they cave in like a bunch of spineless cowards. Hence the anger the American people are feeling, and the anger that Trump is tapping into. Not to mention that Trump, after he says things on some issues, usually winds up being proven right. He said: Criminals are pouring in across the border, liberals blasted him for it. Then a week later a nice young girl named Kate gets gunned down for walking with her father. The killer a illegal who had been deported 5 times already. Liberals rushed to defend the illegal, and the sanctuary cities that protect then...all the while not giving a damn about the innocent girl murdered. Trump was right, criminals are coming across the border.

Add to this Trump is financing his own campaign, so to the average person he won't be beholden to special interests that gave millions to get him elected. Unlike all the other politicians.

Combine that with Trump's brash, politically incorrect, not give a damn style of speaking. As I said before, I always thought it would be nice to have a President that spoke bluntly, even sarcastically at times. Who wasn't afraid to tell our enemies to go F themselves. I should note here that I have since revised my opinion about a President who will curse, after having watched Trump speak.

And last, but definitely not least, and the reason I think Trump just might be our next President. If the boy can get into a dust up with the Pope, and then 2 days later, sweep ALL of SC...he is unstoppable.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#33 Cait

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:01 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 February 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

Do you want to know the truth about just WHY Trump is doing so good? I'll even clarify and say it might not be the whole truth, but it is what I believe to be true...

No.  I don't want to know.  IMO, people seem fine with giving all kinds of reasons they "like" Trump, and none of them are good reasons to "elect" the man President.  Electing a President Is not a popularity contest.  We're not in high school where the stupid jock wins student body president because "he's so cool".  

We're electing the leader of the free world, and I don't care how anyone feels about Obama or Congress or life, or anything.  Electing someone who said all the right things to assuage your angry soul during the primaries, is, insane.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#34 BklnScott

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:36 PM

Oh please. When has insulting the Pope in South Carolina ever been a way to *lose* votes? Gain them, sure. But lose them? How quickly the long history of American evangelical prejudice against Catholics has been forgotten...

On Nevada and Trump: my feeling is that only people who have been holding out hope that Trump would be derailed are surprised about last night's results. Trump has been on top in every single poll for many months. He will be the GOP nominee and the party elders are making their peace with it. (Better him than Ted Cruz - that's how their feelings on he matter are being characterized in the press.)

That said, the optics of Trump's support can be misleading. He cannot win the general. The actual numbers indicate that no more than 4.5 out of 10 Nevada Republicans supported him and nationally (even with Jeb out of the race), it's about 3.5 out of 10 Republicans. Given the chaotic state of the party, and the momentum that comes from these wins, that'll be enough to make Trump the nominee, but he will be a very weak one. Significant numbers of Republicans will never vote for him - as with Goldwater. I think we will see some surprising defections to Hillary as we close on November.

And that's saying nothing about Trump's crossover appeal, which is nonexistent.

It's scary that one of the two major parties is going to run a racist fascist demagogue - but it's heartening to remember that the likelihood of his actually winning the general is pretty much zero.

Edited by BklnScott, 24 February 2016 - 12:43 PM.

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There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#35 Cait

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 01:43 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 24 February 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:


It's scary that one of the two major parties is going to run a racist fascist demagogue - but it's heartening to remember that the likelihood of his actually winning the general is pretty much zero.

It will be very interesting to see how the GOP down-ticket plays out.  If Republicans [like my mom, who says she will not vote if the nominee is Trump] don't vote at all, then the House is in play along with the Senate.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#36 BklnScott

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 02:30 PM

I think we're already seeing signs that a down-ballot reek will develop.

I read an article in Politico yesterday that wonders why about $100 million of Sheldon Adelson's money is absent from the Republican side this cycle. Not only is he not supporting a candidate in the primary this year, he's also not donating huge sums to generalist GOP groups like the Koch and Rove created Super PACs. We may see more of that going forward. Down-ticket races depend on that infrastructure, e.g., for ostensibly issue-oriented media campaigns they could never afford on their own. If more Adelsons withhold, or look elsewhere for influence, I don't see Trump filling the vacuum with his own money, do you?

Plus the SCOTUS issue is a huge loser for them. On Monday, McConnell and Grassley said they would refuse to consider ANY nominee. Idiots. OMG they're so stupid. Today, the White House leaked that it's vetting - wait for it - Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval, a Republican.

Wow, they walked right into that one, huh?

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There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#37 Cait

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 03:15 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 24 February 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

I think we're already seeing signs that a down-ballot reek will develop.

I read an article in Politico yesterday that wonders why about $100 million of Sheldon Adelson's money is absent from the Republican side this cycle. Not only is he not supporting a candidate in the primary this year, he's also not donating huge sums to generalist GOP groups like the Koch and Rove created Super PACs. We may see more of that going forward. Down-ticket races depend on that infrastructure, e.g., for ostensibly issue-oriented media campaigns they could never afford on their own. If more Adelsons withhold, or look elsewhere for influence, I don't see Trump filling the vacuum with his own money, do you?

I read something about that as well.

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Plus the SCOTUS issue is a huge loser for them. On Monday, McConnell and Grassley said they would refuse to consider ANY nominee. Idiots. OMG they're so stupid. Today, the White House leaked that it's vetting - wait for it - Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval, a Republican.

Wow, they walked right into that one, huh?

I read somewhere that the GOP is counting on SCOTUS not being an issue for most voters.  That the anti-Obama sentiment is so strong, obstructing a court nominee won't backfire on them.  And, it won't in the GOP base.  But, imo, it will in the Democratic base.  And, high turn out means Democrats win.  That's just the way it goes historically.

Found a good read on Trump and the GOP. http://www.patheos.c...ent-leadership/

Quote

Fred Koch, was a leader of the John Birch Society. These were the people Dad and Bill called weirdos. Bill gave his life to trying to rescue conservatism from these extremists.
Charles Koch followed his father’s footsteps into the John Birch Society in Wichita, Kansas, a hub city for the organization. He purchased and held a “lifetime membership” until he resigned in 1968. The John Birch Society Wichita, bookstore was stocked with attacks on the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King, and Earl Warren. And Charles Koch funded the John Birch Society’s promotional campaigns, bought advertising in its magazine, and supported its distribution of right-wing radio shows.

The Koch sons would later revive the spirit of the John Birch society under a new more respectable name: the “Tea Party.”

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#38 BklnScott

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 03:40 PM

View PostCait, on 24 February 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

I read somewhere that the GOP is counting on SCOTUS not being an issue for most voters.  That the anti-Obama sentiment is so strong, obstructing a court nominee won't backfire on them.  And, it won't in the GOP base.  But, imo, it will in the Democratic base.  And, high turn out means Democrats win.  That's just the way it goes historically.

I think it will be a big deal for independents and possibly even moderate Republicans, reviving the fiscal cliff narrative at the worst possible time, especially for the Senate Majority. There are reports that GOP leaders would rather lose the Senate than relent, and that they expect it may come to that.

#DOYOURJOBS! has a nice populist ring to it.

I guess we'll see... :) Exciting!

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There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#39 G-man

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 03:50 PM

^^^ Yeah, especially when the GOP Senators could've simply dragged out the hearings and then reject the candidate, and then give the next candidate due consideration before rejecting him too.  I mean, there are ways of being obstructionistic, yet still appear to be performing one's Constitutionally mandated duty.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#40 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 04:08 PM

View PostCait, on 24 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

We're electing the leader of the free world, and I don't care how anyone feels about Obama or Congress or life, or anything.  Electing someone who said all the right things to assuage your angry soul during the primaries, is, insane.

No more so then electing a first time congressman because of his whole promise of "Hope and Change" which turned out to be BS.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson



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