Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Batman Vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice

Superman Batman Wonder Woman DC

  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 Virgil Vox

Virgil Vox
  • Moderator
  • 5,335 posts

Posted 24 March 2016 - 10:19 PM

Just a heads up that there will be massive spoilers in this review so if you want to go in fresh to this movie don't read. Also, this review is a bit rambly. Sorry about that. Okay, so I liked this movie but I didn't love it. I say this as someone who loves Man of Steel. The problem is that the movie wants to be too serious, too dark, and too epic and it just seems to collapse under its own weight. It also tries to do way too much: It introduces Batman, Lex Luthor, Wonder Woman, Doomsday, and teases the Justice League and Darkseid as well as being a semi-sequel to Man of Steel.

The movie takes place 18 months after the conclusion of MoS. During that time Superman has been a hero, saving countless people as we see in a montage. However, the world starts to turn against him after he saves Lois from a war-torn African country and is blamed for the deaths that took place there even though he's innocent. Then a man who lost his legs during the Superman/Zod fight steps forward as a face for the anti-Superman side. Meanwhile, Batman is planning to kill Superman because he believes that someone with that much power will eventually go bad. He acquires a lot of kryptonite and creates anti-Superman weaponry. Turns out that all of this has been orchestrated by Luthor, who wants to see Superman brought low. He also has a back-up plan in case Batman doesn't kill Superman: Doomsday.

Like I said, this is a dark movie. There's no real moments of levity. Clark never seems happy as Superman. Even when he's saving people he doesn't look like he's loving what he is doing. I get that the movie shows him at a low period as public opinion has turned against him but it would have been nice to see him enjoying his powers a little. The only one who seems to be genuinely happy is Wonder Woman as she helps fight Doomsday. I don't need this to be a fun filled movie like Guardians of the Galaxy or Ant-Man but I also didn't need it to be so serious.

Ben Affleck does make a good Batman. This is a Batman that is world weary who has been fighting crime in Gotham (now a sister city to Metropolis) for years and hasn't seemed to make any difference. He decides that killing Superman will be his great contribution to the world. This is also a Batman who kills. A lot. It's surprised me that more reviews haven't really mentioned that since the Internet exploded in outrage over Superman killing Zod but no one seems to care that Batman kills a lot of thugs here. They both have no kill codes. This is also a Batman who has guns very prominently installed on the Batmobile and the Batwing and uses them to help him kill people.

The movie presents Batman as a much darker force of nature. It's really not until the end where Batman faces off against Lex's men that we truly see him in action, and it is a sight to behold. It's an amazing fight scene where Batman just completely dominates everyone with his gadgets and fighting prowess. He also kills some people here too.

I've seen reviews that say Superman is the bully in the movie and I couldn't disagree more. Yes, Superman wants to end what he sees as Batman's reign of terror (and considering Batman kills thugs and brands some of them, and that those who get branded usually are killed in prison by other inmates it's hard not to see his point of view) but he never seeks out an actual fight. He confronts Batman after Batman is involved in a high speed chase as he follows Luthor's goons who are smuggling kryptonite into the city. It's a chase where Batman kills people. Superman kinda trashes the Batmobile and tells Batman that he's done. Then he flies away.

The only reason that Superman goes to fight Batman after that is because Luthor has discovered that Clark Kent is Superman and has kidnapped Martha. His men will kill Martha unless Superman brings Luthor Batman's head. Superman goes to Batman to ask for his help and to say that they've both been manipulated by Luthor but Batman pretty much attacks him right out and doesn't listen to reason. Superman fights because if he doesn't his mother dies.

Speaking of Luthor, I'm not sure what to think about him. He's definitely an effective villain. He discovers the secret identities of both Superman and Batman and manipulates Bruce into seeing Superman as the enemy. He gets Lois into the African country where his men are acting as mercenaries and then has them kill the warlord's men. He knows that Superman will go there to save Lois, and thus be implicated in all the deaths. He finds Wallace, the man who lost his legs during the battle between Superman and Zod, and cleans up his image and gives him a fancy new wheelchair and gets him to be a star witness in the senate hearing that is discussing what to do with Superman. He then blows up the wheelchair, killing everyone in the building but Superman. This leads people to believe that Superman knew about the bomb but decided to let it go off. Then of course he causes the battle between the two heroes. He also creates Doomsday using Zod's body, his own blood, and the Kryptonian scout ship just in case Batman failed to kill Superman.

What makes me unsure about him is Jesse Eisenberg. He's definitely playing a different Lex Luthor. He goes from being manic in some scenes to a neurotic babbling mess in others to definitely psychotic and menacing in others. When he confronts Superman with the truth about his identity and Martha he brings his A-game and it was a great moment between the two. I'll have to watch the movie again to truly decide how I feel about the character.

Lex seems to hate Superman because he sees him as a god. He believes that if God is all powerful he can't be all good, and if he's all good he can't be all powerful. He basically wants to make the world see Superman as a flawed individual who isn't the paragon of virtue that most people think he is, and he largely succeeds at that.

The fight between Superman and Batman is pretty much what I feared it would be. Batman uses kryptonite to weaken Superman and then beat the crap out of him. Superman gets a few shots in but otherwise is completely outmatched. It doesn't last that long either. Superman clearly loses, which annoyed me greatly. Batman is poised to kill Superman with a kryptonite spear when Lois rushes in to stop him. Clark reveals that Luthor has Martha hostage. This makes Batman flash back to the death of his own mother, also named Martha, and he realizes that he's been on the wrong side the entire time. He promises to save Martha while Superman goes to deal with the Doomsday situation.

I've seen a lot of reviewers hate on the Doomsday fight, and I understand where they're coming from. For me though it was one of my favorite parts of the movie. It was great seeing Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman fighting alongside each other against this hulking behemoth. It also made me smile that Batman was obviously outclassed and basically had to run and hide during the fight since he had no chance against Doomsday. It felt like karma after he so easily beat Superman. Plus, it's great to see an awesome live action Doomsday fight. He keeps changing during the fight as he evolves to withstand everything the heroes are throwing at him.

Also, Superman immediately takes Doomsday out of the city, launching both of them into space where the U.S. nukes them both. It doesn't stop either of them, obviously. The rest of the fight takes place on a deserted island between Metropolis and Gotham. There's no giant city destruction and tons of civilian deaths in this movie.

Wonder Woman is amazing during the fight. She stands up to Doomsday pretty well and clearly enjoys the battle. She mainly uses her sword, though her bracelets and lasso do get used. She's not in much of the film. She's investigating Luthor because she believes he has a photograph that belongs to her. The photo is of her, Steve Trevor, and a few other men taken during World War I. She meets Bruce a couple of times in the film, and then we see her reacting to the news about Doomsday. She then goes to join the fight. It's not a lot of screen time, but once she dons her costume and fights Doomsday it's pretty amazing. I am stoked for her solo movie.

The Justice League is teased by files Bruce stole from Luthor. They document incidents of meta-human activity. There's the picture of Diana, of course. There's also video of Barry Allen in a convenience store buying groceries when a man tries to rob the place. He speeds over there and stops him before speeding back to the back of the store. We see video of Aquaman emerging from a sunken ship and destroying the camera that was recording him. Finally we see Cyborg's father trying to save his son and using some experimental cube thing to turn him into Cyborg.

Then there's Bruce's Knightmare sequence. He dreams he's in a post-apocalyptic wasteland where Superman and presumably Darkseid (since we see his symbol burned in the ground and there's parademons everywhere) have taken control of the planet. Batman and his forces are attacked and defeated. Superman unmasks Batman, blames him for "her" death, and then kills him. Bruce then wakes up, only to see the Flash appear in what might be the speed force or a boom tube and warns him that Lois is the key. He then seems to think he's arrived too early and tries to warn Bruce about something else but I couldn't understand him. Bruce then wakes up again. It was a strange sequence that seemed to exist solely to set up Darkseid and to show Batman that Superman could go evil.

There's also an odd scene where Clark goes to hide out on a mountain and sees a vision, I guess, of Jonathan. Jonathan tells Clark about an episode in his youth where Jonathan and his dad worked to divert a flood from the Kent farm. They succeed, and Jonathan thinks he's a hero until he learns that the flood then destroyed the Lang farm. He heard the cries of the drowning horses in his head until he met Martha. He then says he loved Martha, and misses Clark. Clark says he misses him too. Jonathan then disappears. The speech is about how good intentions can have bad unforeseen consequences but it really comes out of nowhere, has no real bearing on the plot, and could have been a lot better.

I'm torn about Superman in this movie. On one hand, I love Henry Cavill as Superman. I think he really embodies the role and he genuinely seems to love the character. It's just that this movie sees Superman at his lowest point. The world is turning against him, and after people blame him for the explosion, he goes into seclusion. We also don't get to see too much of his Clark Kent. There are only a few scenes of him at the Daily Planet where he and White get into it because Clark wants to cover topics like Batman's violence and the state of Gotham but Perry keeps assigning him fluff pieces. He and Lois are living together and clearly in love, which made me extremely happy. This is a Clark that wants to do good, that wants to be a hero and an inspiration, but believes that the world won't let him. He does come back to save Lois, stop Lex, and fight Doomsday. When he sees that nukes have been launched against him and Doomsday he maneuvers the creature into the bomb's blast, even though it might kill him as well.

He also makes the ultimate sacrifice. That's right. This movie kills off Superman. He gets the kryptonite spear that Batman created and stabs it into Doomsday. However, it's also weakening Superman so Doomsday stabs him with a bone claw. Doomsday dies, but so does Superman.

Obviously I don't think they'll keep Clark dead. I'm sure he'll be back in the Justice League movie. The movie even ends with it looking like Clark might not be as dead in his casket as everyone thinks. However, the problem is that the world believes that Clark died during that fight as well, so even if he does return his life as Clark is effectively over. I don't know how the movie is going to come back from that, and I think it was the wrong decision.

I did get choked up at the end when he's dead and we see the funerals for both Clark and Superman. It was really well done, though it rang a little false seeing all the people attending Superman's funeral and mourning him when the entire movie shows us a world that doesn't trust or like Superman.

Also, this is only Superman's second appearance in the new connected DC movie-verse. Sure, his death had an impact on me because I'm a huge Superman fan but the impact is weakened because it just feels too early to kill him.

Clark's death is what motivates Bruce and Diana to go looking for other heroes to help protect the world. Bruce, as Batman, visited Lex in his jail cell where Lex says his actions have rang a bell that has brought the attentions of an evil force from somewhere out in the cold void of space. Batman knows that with Superman dead, the world is going to need more saviors.

Lois is excellent in the movie. She works to uncover who is blaming Superman for the deaths in Africa and pieces together that it was Luthor. She then rushes to the battle between Superman and Batman to stop Batman. She then risks her life to retrieve the kryptonite spear when she realizes that it will be needed to kill Doomsday. She's basically everything you love about Lois Lane: a risk-taker, extremely smart, capable, and not just a damsel in distress. She also tries to pep talk Clark after the bombing saying that his symbol is the only thing that some people can rely on in the world and that he's needed.

I feel like there could have been a great movie here. It's just hampered by DC wanting to rush a shared universe out to compete with Marvel without really taking the steps to get there like Marvel did. It's a bloated movie that tries to do too much too fast and it collapses under its own weight. There's definitely a lot to like here, but there's also a lot that could have been so much better.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#2 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:35 PM

Just saw this. Over all, I loved the movie.

I'll start with the things I didn't care for really...First on this list is Doomsday. He looks like a cross between TMNT and Abomination from the Hulk movie. Even when he starts growing bone spikes, it still isn't really Doomsday, if you know what I mean. It's kind of hard to express why, it just didn't feel like Doomsday to me. And the way he was created...Using Zod's body and Lex's blood? I mean, come on. Way to simple, and completely ignores Doomsday's origins. And since it's sort of on topic, I found it incredibly hard to accept that the Scout ship would accept Lex's authority, with or without the command key. The command key would be needed, for sure. But it wouldn't accept a human authority, I don't think. Especially not Zod's command key.

Now we come to Lex Luthor. Whoever made the decision to cast Jessie Eisenberg must have been drunk, or high on drugs, or something. There are some scenes, where he is excellent...namely when he confronts Superman with the knowledge he knows Superman's secret Identity, and has his mother. Which, let's face it, really wouldn't have been too hard for anyone to figure out. I'm sure they tracked where Zod's two ships landed, when they entered Earth's atmosphere, and they would've easily discovered they landed at the Kent farm house. Not much to put two and two together after that, especially with only glasses as a disguise. I'll have to watch it again to be sure, but I don't think there was ever a moment where it was shown that Lex knew who Batman was though. But aside from that one scene, he drifts off here and there and just babbles, making no sense at all, and it takes you out of the movie. I'm also finding it hard that Lex would've just scarificed Mercy like that, when he clearly didn't have to. Don't get me wrong, he would most definitely kill her if the need was there, but in the bombing of the capital it wasn't.

And last, but definitely not least....The Flash. What is up with the Flash's costume here? It looked like he was a homeless vagabond or something? Who designed that? They really need to be fired.

Now for what I loved.....

I'm going to have to eat massive crow here. But I absolutely LOVED Affleck as Batman and Bruce Wayne. From his facial smirks, right down to him in the Batsuit. And Batman branding criminals...Damn that is just awesome! Even if Alfred doesn't like it. Not too sure how I feel about Batman just straight up killing people though. That violates Batman's one major rule: No Killing. But I guess after 20 years of fighting super villains, he's at the end of his rope so to speak, and just doesn't care anymore.

Loved the brutal fight scene where he saves Martha...and until this movie, I never realized that both Bruce's and Clark's mother were named Martha. I just never connected the two names until now. When I first heard Affleck was going to be Batman, my mind immediately thought of him in the Daredevil movie and I cringed. Cause he sucked in that movie, big time. But as Batman...he is without doubt the best Batman we've ever had.

Liked the fight between Bats and Supes, although I did find Batman's planning a little absurd. There was literally no way, once the fight started, that Batman could've been sure the fight would stay at that building? So all the planning just struck me as insane. Loved Superman's reaction to finding out he was suddenly weak and vulnerable. But it paled in comparison to the look on Batman's face when he realized the Kryptonite had worn off. THAT was truly priceless. Still not really sure why when he left Batman didn't take the spear with him. I mean, that's not the sort of thing you just leave laying around. And speaking of leaving things laying around, Clark was raised by humans, he knows fully well what the government would've done with Zod's body, why he just left the body in the train station is beyond me????

Loved Wonder Woman. Her going toe to toe with Doomsday was great. I wished she had more screen time, but I guess I'll have to wait for her solo movie.

Over all it was a good movie, and I enjoyed it. It did feel rushed though. They should've built up the other character more, by waiting until their solo movies had been shown. Sort of like Marvel did with the Hulk, Thor and Ironman movies, before the Avengers.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#3 Virgil Vox

Virgil Vox
  • Moderator
  • 5,335 posts

Posted 25 March 2016 - 07:15 PM

Quote

First on this list is Doomsday. He looks like a cross between TMNT and Abomination from the Hulk movie. Even when he starts growing bone spikes, it still isn't really Doomsday, if you know what I mean. It's kind of hard to express why, it just didn't feel like Doomsday to me.

It was a different take on Doomsday. He had powers that he didn't have in the comics (at least none of the ones I've read anyways) and his look was different from the comics but it didn't bother me too much. He was still a huge threat for the trinity to take on and gave them a great fight.

Quote

I'll have to watch it again to be sure, but I don't think there was ever a moment where it was shown that Lex knew who Batman was though. But aside from that one scene, he drifts off here and there and just babbles, making no sense at all, and it takes you out of the movie. I'm also finding it hard that Lex would've just scarificed Mercy like that, when he clearly didn't have to. Don't get me wrong, he would most definitely kill her if the need was there, but in the bombing of the capital it wasn't.

When he's talking to Superman on the roof about how he set up the fight between the two heroes he says it was easy to push Batman over the edge because all he had to do was send him notes in red ink about how he failed his family. Those notes were sent to Bruce Wayne so Luthor knew who Batman was. I think it was supposed to be implied that Luthor was intercepting the checks sent to Wallace and sending them back to Bruce to keep reminding him of the devastation that happened at the end of MoS.

I didn't like that Mercy was killed off, but the movie did nothing with her and barely gave her any lines. I don't think Lex had to kill her, but by having her in there it makes it look like he lost a valued employee and throws suspicion off him.

Quote

And last, but definitely not least....The Flash. What is up with the Flash's costume here? It looked like he was a homeless vagabond or something? Who designed that? They really need to be fired.

I think that was supposed to be the post-apocalyptic Flash so it's not his main suit. I think it was supposed to look raggedy and just thrown together. Though if I hadn't read that the Flash appeared in that scene before-hand I might not have recognized him as the Flash.

Quote

That violates Batman's one major rule: No Killing. But I guess after 20 years of fighting super villains, he's at the end of his rope so to speak, and just doesn't care anymore.

This isn't aimed at you LoTS but just at how overall Batman killing a ton of people has been treated compared to Superman killing Zod. Superman kills Zod, who threatened to kill every human on the planet and had the power to back it up, and just about everyone said it ruined the movie and the character (despite the fact that Superman killed Zod and two other evil Kryptonians in the comics and killed Zod, Ursa, and Non in Superman II) and yet Batman kills a lot of people he doesn't have to (and uses guns as well) and people just shrug it off and say how awesome it was. I just... *sigh*

Quote

But as Batman...he is without doubt the best Batman we've ever had.

I definitely liked him in the movie, but I'll have to wait to see how he does in the upcoming movies before I judge his turn as the character to those who have come before him. Here he was too much of a villain in my eyes and too focused on killing Superman (and everyone else who got in his way) for me to judge how he is as a Batman not completely focused on killing another superhero.

Quote

But it paled in comparison to the look on Batman's face when he realized the Kryptonite had worn off. THAT was truly priceless.

I loved that too. I wish Superman had had more awesome moments in the fight but it felt like Snyder and co. wanted to show just how badass Batman is and how easily he could take down Superman.

Quote

Clark was raised by humans, he knows fully well what the government would've done with Zod's body, why he just left the body in the train station is beyond me????

Well, we don't know that Clark left the body there. Maybe he took it but the government demanded it or they showed up right after the fight. I doubt Superman was worried about them doing an autopsy because until kryptonite was found the government had no way of cutting Zod's skin.

Quote

Loved Wonder Woman. Her going toe to toe with Doomsday was great. I wished she had more screen time, but I guess I'll have to wait for her solo movie.

Totally agree. She was great here, and I loved the music that started playing when she showed up.

Quote

Over all it was a good movie, and I enjoyed it. It did feel rushed though. They should've built up the other character more, by waiting until their solo movies had been shown. Sort of like Marvel did with the Hulk, Thor and Ironman movies, before the Avengers.

Yeah. We needed at least one Man of Steel sequel before this movie. DC is just rushing to get a Justice League movie out and it's like they don't understand that the reason The Avengers was such a great movie was because Marvel laid the groundwork and after seeing the solo movies audiences wanted to see these heroes come together.

Oh, I saw an interview today where Snyder said that the cameraman/CIA agent that got killed at the beginning of the film was Jimmy Olsen. He didn't think Jimmy had a place in this movie universe so thought it would be fun to kill him off like that. I have to say, I'm a big fan of Snyder but that comment really made me hate the man. Jimmy is an integral part of the Superman mythos so just to kill him off like that is just dumb, IMO. I'm hoping that since the character wasn't named on screen that another writer or director will eventually bring the real Jimmy into the movies. Interestingly, this faux Jimmy was played by Michael Cassidy, who had a recurring role in Smallville during its seventh season, IIRC.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#4 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:11 AM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 25 March 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

When he's talking to Superman on the roof about how he set up the fight between the two heroes he says it was easy to push Batman over the edge because all he had to do was send him notes in red ink about how he failed his family. Those notes were sent to Bruce Wayne so Luthor knew who Batman was. I think it was supposed to be implied that Luthor was intercepting the checks sent to Wallace and sending them back to Bruce to keep reminding him of the devastation that happened at the end of MoS.

I had forgotten Lex said that, so you're right...he does know Batman's Identity also.



Quote

This isn't aimed at you LoTS but just at how overall Batman killing a ton of people has been treated compared to Superman killing Zod. Superman kills Zod, who threatened to kill every human on the planet and had the power to back it up, and just about everyone said it ruined the movie and the character (despite the fact that Superman killed Zod and two other evil Kryptonians in the comics and killed Zod, Ursa, and Non in Superman II) and yet Batman kills a lot of people he doesn't have to (and uses guns as well) and people just shrug it off and say how awesome it was. I just... *sigh*

I loved the "badassness" of this Batman, namely the brutality of his fighting style in that Warehouse. It was literally like watching Arkham Knight come to life...even though Batman also killed in that fight. When Superman killed Zod in MoS, I'll admit, I was some what taken aback by it...I had gotten so use to Superman not killing, but in that situation, he really had zero choice in the matter. It was either Zod or the rest of the planet at that point, that is a no brainer. Batman's killing is far more violent, and on a much grander scale, and it IS disconcerting. I'm going on the assumption that after Robin died, at least I'm assuming that was Jason Todd's robin costume, Batman has just lost his way, in regards to killing.

Quote


Oh, I saw an interview today where Snyder said that the cameraman/CIA agent that got killed at the beginning of the film was Jimmy Olsen. He didn't think Jimmy had a place in this movie universe so thought it would be fun to kill him off like that. I have to say, I'm a big fan of Snyder but that comment really made me hate the man. Jimmy is an integral part of the Superman mythos so just to kill him off like that is just dumb, IMO. I'm hoping that since the character wasn't named on screen that another writer or director will eventually bring the real Jimmy into the movies. Interestingly, this faux Jimmy was played by Michael Cassidy, who had a recurring role in Smallville during its seventh season, IIRC.

I didn't realize that was suppose to be Jimmy Olsen. Glad he wasn't named then, cause it gives them room to bring in Olsen later. Killing off Olsen is a serious mistake. I just thought the camerman was one of Lex's guys, which did make me wonder why Lois would use somebody she really didn't know.

Edited by Lord of the Sword, 26 March 2016 - 12:12 AM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#5 Themis

Themis
  • Islander
  • 6,544 posts

Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:42 AM

Sounds like this is another superhero movie long on SFX and violence and short on character - maybe except for Lois?  I don't think I'm a fan of Snyder's DC after MOS plus the reviews of this one.  A seasoned Batman resorts to killing and maiming?  Just no.  Doubt I'll live long enough for someone else's take so I'll just have to watch the Christopher Reeve movies.  I had quibbles with those but they focussed on the character development.  I guess the more CGI develops, the more directors want to use it.

BTW, according to the Time Magazine review, Eisenberg was playing Luthor's son.

Edited by Themis, 27 March 2016 - 04:33 PM.

Cats will never be extinct!

#6 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,681 posts

Posted 28 March 2016 - 12:08 PM

View PostThemis, on 26 March 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Sounds like this is another superhero movie long on SFX and violence and short on character - maybe except for Lois?  I don't think I'm a fan of Snyder's DC after MOS plus the reviews of this one.  A seasoned Batman resorts to killing and maiming?  Just no.  Doubt I'll live long enough for someone else's take so I'll just have to watch the Christopher Reeve movies.  I had quibbles with those but they focussed on the character development.  I guess the more CGI develops, the more directors want to use it.

BTW, according to the Time Magazine review, Eisenberg was playing Luthor's son.

Well they never really explain why Batman kills, they sort of leave it up to the audience to guess as to the reason. I'm hoping in the Ultimate edition directors cut DVD, which has 30 more minutes in it, they cover it a little. As for Superman...I found Superman's situation very very realistic...No matter what he does, the public blames him for it. The public, at least except for the few supporters, gets all negative on Superman. Which, if Superman were real and around today, is EXACTLY what would be happening.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#7 Jorgasnarova

Jorgasnarova
  • Islander
  • 605 posts

Posted 28 March 2016 - 07:13 PM

I am rather surprised at how negative the reviews for this film on YouTube have been.

I have not yet seen "Batman v. Superman." Three friends who saw it gave me identical reviews.  They all found the film enormously enjoyable but all three of them felt the first hour of the movie was very slow.

#8 Virgil Vox

Virgil Vox
  • Moderator
  • 5,335 posts

Posted 28 March 2016 - 09:50 PM

Quote

I had forgotten Lex said that, so you're right...he does know Batman's Identity also.

The one thing I hate about Lex knowing both their secret identities is that it's just brushed off. Lex could ruin both of them just by revealing those secrets and yet doesn't. You'd think at the end when he's in jail he'd at least reveal that Bruce Wayne is Batman.

Quote

I loved the "badassness" of this Batman, namely the brutality of his fighting style in that Warehouse. It was literally like watching Arkham Knight come to life...even though Batman also killed in that fight.

Don't get me wrong. I loved the warehouse fight. It was pretty awesome and one of my complaints about Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy was that half the time it wa shard to tell what was going on in the fights. I just wish the movie had kept Batman's killing spree to a minimum. There's no way the police aren't going after this guy if he's killed this many people, criminals or no.

Quote

Sounds like this is another superhero movie long on SFX and violence and short on character - maybe except for Lois?  I don't think I'm a fan of Snyder's DC after MOS plus the reviews of this one.  A seasoned Batman resorts to killing and maiming?  Just no.  Doubt I'll live long enough for someone else's take so I'll just have to watch the Christopher Reeve movies.  I had quibbles with those but they focussed on the character development.  I guess the more CGI develops, the more directors want to use it.

This was a movie that was more focused on plot and setting up the larger DCCU than it was on character. So many people talk about whether Superman is good or bad or what should be done about him but we never really get his own opinion. The only thing we really get from him is when he's about to leave after the bombing and says that Superman can't exist in this world and he was just the naive dream of a farmer from Kansas.

Quote

As for Superman...I found Superman's situation very very realistic...No matter what he does, the public blames him for it. The public, at least except for the few supporters, gets all negative on Superman. Which, if Superman were real and around today, is EXACTLY what would be happening.

I'm sure if Superman did exist the events in the movie surrounding whether people trusted him or not would happen. However, that doesn't mean it makes for an engaging movie. If they had shown him saving more people or just having fun being Superman or even get the chance to say why he's saving people despite people hating him it would have been fine. Instead it was basically just a ton of negativity directed towards Superman until he dies. Still, he proves that he is the great hero he wanted to be and I think he's the only hero who comes out looking great. Batman's a psychopath who spends most of the movie trying to kill someone who's innocent and Wonder Woman only makes an appearance after Batman more or less goads her with his email.

Quote

I have not yet seen "Batman v. Superman." Three friends who saw it gave me identical reviews.  They all found the film enormously enjoyable but all three of them felt the first hour of the movie was very slow.

It is pretty slow at first. Aside from the scene of Bruce driving in Metropolis when the World Engine was destroying the city, the first hour or so is devoid of action. It's not until Batman chases Lex's goons in the Batmobile that the action picks up.

I have no problem with a slow movie but I think what's wrong with the first half of the movie is that the scenes seem to be all jumbled with no real sense of flow to them. This may be because 30 minutes or so of footage was cut out. I don't know. The Knightmare scene, while cool, also disrupts the flow of the movie. It's a random scene put there merely to set up future movies and it has no impact on the rest of Batman Vs. Superman. Bruce never once mentions the scene again or wonders why Lois Lane might be the key. Remove that scene and it doesn't hurt or change the film at all. It doesn't even really add any motivation to Bruce's desire to kill Superman because that's something he had decided to do well before that scene takes place and like I said he never references it as to why he's continuing on his crusade.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#9 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,302 posts

Posted 29 March 2016 - 03:44 PM

I am going to do a full review as soon as time permits. But suffice to say that I really liked the movie, while yet realizing after watching the most recent episode of Supergirl (World's Finest), why the movie just doesn't work as a superhero movie.

I chimed in to this thread to disagree with the idea that Wonder Woman only shows up after Bat man goads her. In the movie, she was LEAVING after that. She joined the fight when Doomsday showed up in the news. And she was totally awesome.

QT

Edited by G-man, 06 April 2016 - 01:46 PM.
Correcting a typo.

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#10 G-man

G-man

    Is there a problem?

  • Moderator
  • 8,603 posts

Posted 29 March 2016 - 04:30 PM

^^^ OK, I'm certainly interested on hearing why you feel, Bats vs. Supes doesn't work as a superhero film, QT.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#11 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,302 posts

Posted 06 April 2016 - 11:36 AM

Ok - while I have a hot second...

I genuinely wanted  to like Batman v Superman, and for the most part, I did.  I was on the edge of my seat frequently - awed by the spectacle, and some of the ways that Superman as a character felt lived-in.  I think that that's an aspect of the film that is kinda taken for granted... how much the film assumes that we kinda already know Superman/Clark Kent, and can now get to see how his life is moving forward post MoS.  It is a bit of universe building that is understated, and yet, necessary for the sake of the franchise.

That said, I think that the way the film played out onscreen was more of a mythology epic than a superhero movie.  Indeed - the themes of Gods and Devils that play throughout the whole of this movie make that clear.  Seriously - although many have argued that Superheros are the modern greek mythology of the day - I am going to call BS on the claim.  I think that the claim was a marketing ploy to get comic books taken seriously in academia, but stretching the analogy too far gives us ... well, Batman v Superman.  

A question, if anyone minds reflecting for a moment: has anyone EVER mistaken Superman for a "god" in any prior incarnation?  Do we actually have any need to deconstruct his godlike status, seeing as, he never was that to us before? I ask sincerely - my question presupposes that others agree with me that Superman was always a hero (albeit a superpowered one) and not a "god."  Comic book lore actually shows that Kryptonians worshipped the God of their understanding.  Why would I mistake a man for a god who himself worships a god?  Ultimately - this vision of Superman as a godfigure played out in Man of Steel and came to fruition in BvS.  But as I said - seeing the Supergirl Flash team-up on CBS last week really brought home the problem with this idea.  Supergirl is just as powerful as Superman, has the same origin, and yet, no one feels the need to conflate her with a god.   She's an alien do-gooder.  A hero.  A superhero.

Batman vs Superman could well be told as Osiris vs Set, with Isis coming to put the pieces back together.  It has that tone. It is fairly epic in scope, and I have no objection to it for what it is.  But for what it is billed as - I object a lot.  A superhero movie this is not.

Den of Geek writes about the characterization of Superman from another angle: http://www.denofgeek...-man-of-steel-2  I think they make a good point, and had we seen this movie that they suggest we should have seen before BvS, maybe I'd feel differently.  But we didn't see that movie - and BvS plays out as the death of a god.  In mythological terms - this should have implications for humanity - the death rebirth life cycle that are our seasons, the sacrificial lamb redemption story... some greater consequence.  So maybe the founding of the Justice League and Batman's redemption are sufficient for the death of a god.  I don't actually think so, which is disappointing.  We know that Superman comes back to life.  What does THAT mean in the grand scheme of this universe? I guess we'll see.

Anyway - I signed one of the petitions to get Zach Snyder off of the Justice League movies.  I appreciate his epic view and storytelling style - but I think that these characters need room to be heroes, and don't need to be burdened with godlike status. Ah - well, Aquaman could take on a godlike status. ;-) But... doesn't that make him a Marvel character?!?

I haven't been following the new horror-Wonder Woman.  I am not a fan of horror, so I never could have liked the run anyway, although I get that it was successful.  But this whole experience has shown me one other way in which this Diana's interactions with the gods of Olympus differ greatly from the Diana portrayal I liked best.  In this incarnation - she IS a Goddess.  In prior ones, she had a humbleness that honored the Gods - making her one of us.  Except, more.  A hero... except.. a superhero.

So - that's the best I could do with the limited time I had to do it.

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#12 BklnScott

BklnScott

    FKA ScottEVill

  • Islander
  • 18,142 posts

Posted 06 April 2016 - 12:41 PM

Hi QT. Glad to hear your take on this. I actually decided to skip this one. I'm sure I will stream it someday but I'm not trapping myself in a movie theater with it. I've always been a fan of the work Snyder takes inspiration from but he completely misunderstands every last bit of it. Good lord, Watchmen alone. If Alan Moore is dangerous in Zack Snyder's hands, Frank Miller is even more so. Does no one involved at the WB get that they are fronting deliberate subversions of the brand as the brand itself? Are they that desperate to avoid the Superfriends comparisons? They shouldn't be!

They should be paying less attention to Moore and Miller and more - much more - to Wolfman/Perez and Giffen/DeMatteis for Justice League and world-building generally, to Paul Dini for Batman, to Grant Morrison for All-Star Superman, and to Perez again for Wonder Woman.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just think you have to build the thing before you deconstruct and interrogate that thing in the form of satire. It's an open question whether Snyder even understands that The Dark Knight Returns is satire in the first place.

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#13 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,302 posts

Posted 06 April 2016 - 01:32 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 06 April 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:



Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just think you have to build the thing before you deconstruct and interrogate that thing in the form of satire. It's an open question whether Snyder even understands that The Dark Knight Returns is satire in the first place.

Yeah.  And yes, agreed that as much as I loved The Dark Knight Returns- that worked because we already knew Batman, Superman, and the rest, and could appreciate utilizing these characters to tell us something about the politics of the day.

I have an idea for the standalone MoS sequel that could live in this universe AND still cleanse the palatte of all this grim deconstructionism, to let Superman be Superman - to let a little bit of sunlight into the franchise.  But Ashley Miller and Zach Stentz would have to write it. Seriously - all I would need to do is name the villian of the piece, and ANYTHING those guys came up with would do the trick. UNLESS... Zack Snyder directs again and sucks all the life and humor from it...

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#14 BklnScott

BklnScott

    FKA ScottEVill

  • Islander
  • 18,142 posts

Posted 06 April 2016 - 09:27 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on 06 April 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

View PostBklnScott, on 06 April 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:



Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just think you have to build the thing before you deconstruct and interrogate that thing in the form of satire. It's an open question whether Snyder even understands that The Dark Knight Returns is satire in the first place.

Yeah.  And yes, agreed that as much as I loved The Dark Knight Returns- that worked because we already knew Batman, Superman, and the rest ...

QT

It's interesting to consider that the Miller and Moore projects Snyder draws from were commissioned specifically with the idea of providing endings for these characters. They are destruction myths that Snyder is attempting to repurpose as creation myths...

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#15 Virgil Vox

Virgil Vox
  • Moderator
  • 5,335 posts

Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:12 PM

Quote

A question, if anyone minds reflecting for a moment: has anyone EVER mistaken Superman for a "god" in any prior incarnation?  Do we actually have any need to deconstruct his godlike status, seeing as, he never was that to us before? I ask sincerely - my question presupposes that others agree with me that Superman was always a hero (albeit a superpowered one) and not a "god."

In the Godfall story line we see that the people of the Bottled City of Kandor worship "The Superman" as an actual god. Due to events from the Our Worlds At War cross-over Clark ends up in Kandor thinking he's just a regular citizen. It turns out that one of the Kandorians, Lyla, is draining Clark of his powers so she can become a god and ascend to Metropolis where the other gods and demigods live. She believes that Superman has been a neglectful god and wants to become a goddess to right his wrongs. Then in the year long Trinity series by Kurt Busiek Superman, along with Wonder Woman and Batman, literally become gods. However, both stories end up affirming that Superman is just a man trying to do the right thing and that to see him as a god is the wrong way to look at him. Batman Vs. Superman however pretty much treats the Superman is a god as gospel, no pun intended.

Quote

But as I said - seeing the Supergirl Flash team-up on CBS last week really brought home the problem with this idea.  Supergirl is just as powerful as Superman, has the same origin, and yet, no one feels the need to conflate her with a god.   She's an alien do-gooder.  A hero.  A superhero.

Completely agree. Superman should be seen as just a hero and not some god-like deity. I wish we had seen more of that in this movie.

Quote

Den of Geek writes about the characterization of Superman from another angle: http://www.denofgeek...-man-of-steel-2  I think they make a good point, and had we seen this movie that they suggest we should have seen before BvS, maybe I'd feel differently.

I definitely agree that there should have been a Man of Steel 2 before Batman Vs. Superman. Superman and his world needed more fleshing out than what it got in Man of Steel and BvS.

Quote

Anyway - I signed one of the petitions to get Zach Snyder off of the Justice League movies.  I appreciate his epic view and storytelling style - but I think that these characters need room to be heroes, and don't need to be burdened with godlike status. Ah - well, Aquaman could take on a godlike status. ;-) But... doesn't that make him a Marvel character?!?

I really don't think Zach Snyder's the problem, or at least not the main problem. I stand by my absolute love of Man of Steel so obviously I don't think he's the horrible director many people do. I do want to see new blood (both writers and director) brought in on Justice League Part 2, though. I think the main problem is that DC wants to fast track its shared universe without laying the groundwork and that they want their movies to be darker, more serious, epic affairs even when the movies don't call for that. I just read an interview with Gal Gadot where she says the Wonder Woman movie is dark with only a few moments of levity. True, it's taking place during a world war but I think Captain America: The First Avenger proved that you can set a superhero movie in a war and still have it be more hopeful and inspirational.

Quote

They should be paying less attention to Moore and Miller and more - much more - to Wolfman/Perez and Giffen/DeMatteis for Justice League and world-building generally, to Paul Dini for Batman, to Grant Morrison for All-Star Superman, and to Perez again for Wonder Woman.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I just think you have to build the thing before you deconstruct and interrogate that thing in the form of satire. It's an open question whether Snyder even understands that The Dark Knight Returns is satire in the first place.

QFT. When they first referenced The Dark Knight Returns as inspiration for BvS, I groaned. It just felt like the wrong direction to take the characters. I'm glad that Superman did come across as a hero in this movie and someone willing to do the right thing no matter what, but it was still a darker take on the character and world than what I wanted.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#16 BklnScott

BklnScott

    FKA ScottEVill

  • Islander
  • 18,142 posts

Posted 09 April 2016 - 09:44 AM

The darkness in a Superman movie should be a) fully developed and b) completely relegated to the subtext (or at least off-camera). And by completely I mean 75%. :)

Superman movies should be for kids of all ages - not just for the global male "tits and action" audiences and f*** everybody else. It doesn't have to be that way. And that's not just a fanboy nitpick. They are leaving money on the table, too.

Edited by BklnScott, 09 April 2016 - 11:51 AM.

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#17 Themis

Themis
  • Islander
  • 6,544 posts

Posted 10 April 2016 - 12:55 PM

View PostBklnScott, on 09 April 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

Superman movies should be for kids of all ages - not just for the global male "tits and action" audiences and f*** everybody else.

YES!!!  Thank you.

I'll definitely skip this one until it's "free" on one of the cable stations I have.
Cats will never be extinct!

#18 BklnScott

BklnScott

    FKA ScottEVill

  • Islander
  • 18,142 posts

Posted 10 April 2016 - 03:33 PM

I don't mean to hijack the thread with larger-scope musings about superhero movies and what makes them tick... On the other hand, we're not exactly busy here these days... so some further thoughts on the WB DC movies.

I'm not sure that they have hit upon a point of view that is sufficiently distinctive from what Disney/Marvel is already doing (not to mention Fox). I was thinking about what really does make DC distinctive, for me, and this is what I came up with.

The DCU is our world overlaid on top of a fantasy world where gods and demons and magic all really exist - similar to the world of Indiana Jones in that regard, I suppose (notwithstanding Crystal Skull). Whereas the Marvel Universe is our world overlaid on top of a science-fictional world - one where all Frankensteins and Frankenstein’s monsters (good and bad) exist, and where magic is actually just science so advanced that as far as ordinary people are concerned it might as well be sorcery.

That's the key distinction between Marvel and DC, IMO. In the DCU, wishing can make it so.

See: Green Lantern’s ring. But also see Superman, whose power does not derive from the yellow sun, but from the people who believe in him. They are inspired by him and in turn inspire him to greater acts of heroism. The sun is merely where he gets his super-powers, and that's not the same thing at all. (Zack Snyder really does not seem to get this.) Even the first modern Superman movie was tag-lined: "You'll believe a man can fly." Batman's power hinges on belief, too, but he's the opposite side of the coin from Superman. He inspires fear and in turn leverages that fear to create justice and security for the people of a quasi-failed city.

In George Perez's Wonder Woman, the awesome power of the Greek Gods in Classical Antiquity is said to have been fueled by the devout faith of the ancients. In the present day, by contrast, with only the prayers of the Amazons to keep them afloat, their power is comparatively diminished - with the exception of Ares, who as the god of war has a global power base in the modern world - whether his disciples realize it or not.

And of course DC has something Marvel doesn't: a big stable of critically-acclaimed horror/fantasy comics many of which have never been adapted even in animated form. They represent an enormous well of untapped potential - both creative and commercial - for Warner Brothers, and all of them hinge on the power of belief from Swamp Thing and Hellblazer to Sandman and all of Neil Gaiman's various Endless-related projects

In hindsight, when Green Lantern didn't work out, they probably should have decided to launch the DCCU with Wonder Woman. As a fish out of water in Man's World, she would have been a good entree for audiences... though if I recall correctly, they HAD to make a Superman movie to stop a ticking copyright clock.

Anyways ...

Edited by BklnScott, 10 April 2016 - 03:37 PM.

Quote

There isn't enough mommy in the world to further a cause like yours!

#19 Jorgasnarova

Jorgasnarova
  • Islander
  • 605 posts

Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:44 PM

Saw "Batman v. Superman" the other day.  Enjoyed it very much.  Highlights were Affleck's Batman, Irons' Alfred, Cavill's Superman, and, of course, Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman.  Gadot was so impressive in her brief scenes it really was a very effective commercial for next year's standalone "Wonder Woman" movie.

Low points for me were the somewhat weak justification for the Batman/Superman fight, and the characterization of Lex Luthor, which I thought was really all over the map.  Lex goes from geekily charming, to sinister, to manic, and to over the top wackadoodle.  I suspect most of the deleted scenes involved Luthor and I will eagerly await the release of the directior's cut of the film on Blu-ray in July.

As to the complaints the film was turgidly paced, overlong, and depressingly grim, I do not agree.  "The Dark Knight Rises" was a slower and darker film than "BvS." I found it a very satisfactory follow up to "Man of Steel" and a good lead into "Justice League." Really, I don't grasp the hatred this film is generating. Did I fall through a wormhole into a parallel universe to see an altogether different version of this film which is proving so divisive?

#20 QueenTiye

QueenTiye

    Behavior is not reproducible over multiple trials.

  • Islander
  • 24,302 posts

Posted 04 May 2016 - 09:24 AM

No - I think that a lot of the misery heaped on the film is unjustified.  I DO think there were problems with the film, but I still enjoyed it.  I would have preferred we got to know Supes more, but oh well.  I wish they hadn't felt the need to lean into this "superhero as god" nonsense (really odd when we have superheros on our screen every week, 4 days a week, from the same DC universe, and don't think anyone is a god there.  But otherwise, I quite enjoyed it. I would go if the director's cut made it to theaters.

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, DC

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users