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Agents of SHIELD: S03E17 - The Team

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#21 RJDiogenes

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Posted 29 April 2016 - 06:05 PM

It doesn't need to be rationalized, though, because it already makes sense. It is in no way reflective of the person, but is a sensible response to the situation.

How would you have handled it differently?
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#22 G-man

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 08:17 AM

How would I have handled it differently?  Inform the Secret Warriors that intelligence has been received about the nature of Hive and his power over Inhumans, and the concern that one of them might have fallen under his influence.  Then ask for their help in trying to determine when, during that whole rescue operation, an opportunity might have arisen to enable him to gain that influence.

It's a collaborative approach that offers all explanations up front and demonstrates that the  Secret Warriors are valued and trusted.  It also suddenly deprives the undercover operative the whole "us vs. them" cover, because now the suspects are on guard and suspecting each other, and ought to convince them to be more amenable to the investigation to discover who might no longer be wholly themselves.

Admittedly, it might result in an escalation once Daisy is outed and her team seek to subdue her, making things worse, OTOH the relation between those Inhumans and SHIELD does not become estranged.

Actually, this has been a recurring theme of the series.  The need to keep secrets from each other inevitably breeds distrust and leads to feelings of betrayal.  Only by communicating, trusting, and collaborating can things improve and relationships strengthen.  Mind you, the process won't necessarily be harmonious, and sometimes can be quite discordant, but it could, potentially, provide for a far superior result.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 02 May 2016 - 08:18 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#23 RJDiogenes

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 06:01 PM

That would have resulted in the compromised party or parties being tipped off that SHIELD was onto them and given them the opportunity to adjust their plans accordingly.

If the Secret Warriors had acted more maturely, they would not have tried to escape once they knew what was going on, because they would have understood. Which is what Lincoln essentially did once he didn't have Daisy goading him anymore.  In fact, Daisy's behavior should have been a tip off that she had been compromised, but the writers chose not to play it that way.

Different management styles, I guess.  :lol:
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#24 G-man

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 07:14 AM

Agreed about different management styles, but think about it: what advantage did SHIELD gain by not tipping the person off?  It created an atmosphere of tension and confusion, and enabled the agent to further confuse matters by drawing on her colleagues own insecurities to cover her activities.  The only advantage to playing the "I know something you don't know" game is to hopefully perform a quiet takedown of the as of yet to be identified suspect.  And we saw just how well that worked.

Had SHIELD "tipped" their hand and shared their concerns, the agent would have been denied the cover of her colleagues, and those colleagues' insecurities would have allayed by that act of appreciation and trust and probably would've helped not only narrow the possibility of who might have been infected, but also assisted in the takedown with far less damage to the SHIELD facility.

As I said earlier, this was an instance where SHIELD SOP simply was not only ineffective, but did more harm than good.

The problem of offering explanations afterwards is that they sound a lot like excuses that are offered after the injury has been done ... you can hope for forgiveness and understanding, but they will remember the injury, even if they chose to table their resentment for the moment.  Thus, you can no longer fully trust them to help you in the future.

But, iIt is as a wise man once said:  "Play differently, lose differently."

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 03 May 2016 - 09:44 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#25 RJDiogenes

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 06:30 PM

But, again, trust is inapplicable in this situation, since you're talking about someone who is being controlled. Under normal circumstances, they could be trusted, but under the control of Hive-Ward they can't even trust themselves.

Instead of imagining how you would have handled the situation, imagine how you would have handled being in the Secret Warriors' shoes.  Suppose Coulson had tranked you and put you in a cell and then explained that you might have been compromised by Hive-Ward along with several others. Would you tell him off for not trusting you or would you just say, yeah, makes sense?
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#26 G-man

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 05:29 AM

I'd be demanding he let me out -- and I'd be very reluctant to work with SHIELD ever again, that is if I didn't decide that they were an evil organization bent on enslaving/destroying me and mine and therefore ought to be destroyed in its own right.

You do not tranq, imprison, and then explain.  The explanation must come before the injury is dealt, otherwise the explanation is worthless.  Fear is a lousy excuse for abuse, and to ask for understanding because you're afraid of them ... yeah, right.  That path leads to abuse, and abuse leads to enmity and radicalization.  It has never worked.

Unfortunately, SHIELD generally operates on the "better to beg forgiveness, than ask permission" principal, and that has never worked out for them (remember SHIELD, and "Real SHIELD"? or how about when they arrived uninvited, armed for bear, at the Inhuman Sanctuary?).  So obviously, they should continue to operate in that manner.

What I am advocating is that you gather them together, explain about Hive and the need to do individual interviews in order to determine who may or may not have fallen under influence, and ask for their cooperation and patience in this process.  They will be freed after the process is complete.  And then, you keep them up to date as to findings or lack thereof while still treating them with kid glove, and then you free them once the individual had been identified and contained with apologies for the inconvenience.

/s/

Gloriosus
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Edited by G-man, 04 May 2016 - 08:03 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#27 RJDiogenes

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 05:45 PM

The problem with that is that everybody in the room could be dead before you finish your sentence. Especially if more than one person has been compromised.

Considering the stakes involved, sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness than permission.  That's kind of funny, actually, because that was my often-stated philosophy when I was a manager at BMC.  :lol:  It was a very productive philosophy.  Fortunately, it never involved incarcerating anyone against their will.
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#28 G-man

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 05:11 AM

Play differently, lose differently.

Admittedly, my approach is taking a calculated risk, but how big a risk is it?

You suggest that once tipped off, the suspect(s) would immediately lash out ... but would they?  Especially when it was proved that only one of them was infected.

Lincoln, Daisy, Yoyo, and the Melting Man (Meltor?) have powers, but those powers haven't proved instantly fatal and could be overcome by the others acting in combination.

Therefore, the chances are they'd opt to remain unidentified even as the interviews progress ... changing from a disastrous short game that could result in not only their capture, but the failure of their mission, to playing a long game of trying to convince SHIELD that Malick was leading them on, and that no one was infected, until such time as they can successfully carry out their mission, as well as collect further intelligence on SHIELD's plans.

The advantage for SHIELD being that now it is far harder for the suspect to hide behind the others, and the others are now cooperating with the investigation and will help take the suspect down, should it come to that.

Another advantage to this approach is that SHIELD avoided alienating the very people who had done them a good service, and therefore does not have to apologize to them for the subsequent debriefing/investigation to determine if and/or when one of them might have been infected, allowing Mack and Yoyo's relationship to continue to develop unhindered.

Finally, by forcing that agent into playing the long game, SHIELD buys itself time to identify who that agent is.

The problem with begging for forgiveness and understanding, is that it works better as a policy for dealing with higher-ups than dealing with your own employees, especially when you're demanding those employees make sudden unexpected sacrifices that they do not believe they should have to make in light of you not making the sacrifice yourself.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 05 May 2016 - 07:32 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#29 zarkon

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 08:28 AM

As we have seen countless times, taking that calculated risk because someone doesn't want to ruffle feathers gets people killed.

The bad guys moves can never be predicted in advance because most of us don't think that way.

Every time they give the bad guys an opening, it's taken and someone pays the price.

Locking them all up and testing etc and apologize later seems the only safe way to go and if they aren't adult enough to understand the big picture, then it's their loss.

Sorry for chiming in on this back and forth, but I am voting with RJD  :piratebuds:

#30 G-man

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 09:26 AM

Only in fiction, Zarkon ;)

The problem is, in RL, those "prudent precautions" almost invariably create the very problems that they were supposed to stop.

The issue isn't about not ruffling feathers, but rather not creating enemies and/or cultivating and maintaining the trust of allies.

Remember, the show had SHIELD acting as RJD advised, and that resulted in a wrecked base, Daisy escaping with the Kree artifact and Terrigen Crystals, and, arguably, alienated Yoyo and Meltor.  Whether these last two are still stuck in solitary confinement since Daisy was identified is subject to debate, but that would certainly be the "prudent" choice since we can't have two known Inhumans who might harbor a grudge against SHIELD running around loose.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 05 May 2016 - 11:34 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#31 RJDiogenes

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 06:34 PM

Are they still in custody?  I don't remember. Had Simmons come up with a way to test for the Hive-Brain-Fungus?  It certainly would not be prudent to let them loose if their status is unclear.  Although Lincoln is running around free (and acting like a nut), so maybe Yoyo and Meltor were freed as well.  All I remember is her giving Mack a dirty look.
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#32 G-man

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 07:44 AM

^^^ I don't think it was addressed.  At least I saw nothing that explicitly mentioned them being allowed to leave ... so there's that.

And the problem with keeping them locked up is that should they prove not to be infected, they will probably never willingly work with SHIELD again.  Why?  Because SHIELD had just demonstrated that they are untrustworthy.

Which, quite frankly, has always been a major failing of SHIELD, as demonstrated in Season 2.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#33 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 08:20 AM

They did address it, both the test and their location, at the beginning of the next episode.  In the aftermath of the explosion and the damaged base, when Mack and May were finishing each other's sentences:

Quote

Tests come back?
Daisy's the only one infected.
So Joey and Elena...
Touched down at the Cocoon. But Lincoln...
Refused to leave. I know.


From transcript: http://transcripts.f...p?f=140&t=26894

I guess the cocoon is another base?  Obviously most personnel had to leave this one because of the damage, but I have no idea what they are doing now.  Are they free after transfer through another location?  Or are they being kept to protect them from Hive?  Cause he could just find and convert them as soon as they leave!  (Daisy of course knows all about their homes and families. :unsure:)

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 06 May 2016 - 08:23 AM.

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#34 G-man

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 10:30 AM

So ... they are locked up at the cocoon?  :rolleyes:

I can just see the campaign to recruit Inhumans:  Work with SHIELD, be illegally imprisoned for life.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#35 RJDiogenes

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 06:56 PM

Well, we don't know what the Cocoon is.  If Lincoln could go where he pleased, presumably the other two could as well. If they are locked up, I would agree that it is inappropriate since they've been cleared.  But I still don't see dealing with potential mind control as an issue of trust.
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#36 G-man

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 02:19 PM

Well ... let's flip the equation.

What if Hive lived could mind control Humans, and only Inhumans could resist him.  Would that mean locking up all Humans, for an indefinite period, until the threat is removed?  That would only be prudent.

Of course, I'd expect that the answer would be "No," if only on logistical grounds.

So, what I am seeing is the possibility of Mind Control potentially being used merely as an excuse to incarcerate and oppress a particular minority.  Once Mind Control is off the table, then, Humanity would find another excuse to justify incarcerating that minority, because they do not consider Inhumans as being human, and do consider the to be a threat simply because of their abilities.  And rather than reaching a Modus Vivendi with them, they'd seek to either enslave them, or destroy them.  

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 09 May 2016 - 02:19 PM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#37 RJDiogenes

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 06:28 PM

If Hive could control humans, I would definitely lock up anybody who had been in contact with him, if possible-- and put Inhumans in privileged positions whenever possible. Since humans outnumber Inhumans by probably millions to one, it would probably become logistically unworkable, as you say-- not to mention completely change the nature of the story-- but it would be logically the same. Anyone who was potentially compromised is a risk.
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#38 G-man

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 02:22 PM

Fair 'nuff.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus



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