554 replies to this topic

[Cait]

Well, time to begin the general election... thought I'd begin a new thread for general election stuff from both candidates and parties.

[Virgil Vox]

I am not ready for this election. The process to get us here has been so long and vitriolic and just hate-filled that I can't stand basically four more months of this. Plus it's a frightening day when Donald Trump is the nominee for a major political party and may be soon running the country.

[Cait]

Virgil Vox, on 20 July 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

I am not ready for this election. The process to get us here has been so long and vitriolic and just hate-filled that I can't stand basically four more months of this. Plus it's a frightening day when Donald Trump is the nominee for a major political party and may be soon running the country.

Damn, you just described exactly how I feel.  Maybe we should just vent for a while to maybe get rid of the dirt from the primaries.

My biggest fear this primary season, is how many people the hate appealed to.  I had no idea our country had so many people that actually feel so anti-humanity.

[yadda yadda]

Cait, on 20 July 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

Virgil Vox, on 20 July 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

I am not ready for this election. The process to get us here has been so long and vitriolic and just hate-filled that I can't stand basically four more months of this. Plus it's a frightening day when Donald Trump is the nominee for a major political party and may be soon running the country.

Damn, you just described exactly how I feel.  Maybe we should just vent for a while to maybe get rid of the dirt from the primaries.

My biggest fear this primary season, is how many people the hate appealed to.  I had no idea our country had so many people that actually feel so anti-humanity.

Yeah, it's a bit like discovering in 'The Time Machine', (the original from the 60's) that what you thought was a comparatively peaceful, idyllic society in the future is filled with murederous slavering troglodictic Morlocks, lurking underground, out of sight. Makes you almost want to flee back to when America was great. It's harrowing knowing that there are so many unhinged, easily duped people in our country. Pink Floyd was wrong...we DO need some education, before this country becomes all about just putting another brick in the wall.

[Omega]

This election is an extreme example of many problems with our entire system of elections.

Hillary is a lying, technologically incompetent elitist with limited consistent principles, even fewer of which overlap with mine. Her only value is that she is an exceptionally experienced public servant.

Trump is a lying, universally incompetent, sexist, racist, ignorant, unamerican narcicist. He has exactly zero consistent principles of any kind. His only skill is in telling lies.

Hillary is the nominee because of concerns about electability, caused by a locked in two party system, caused by pick-one voting.

Trump is the nominee because all his opponents split the vote between them, due to pick-one voting.

So the country is divided because our election process resulted in two hated nominees. And we're all left impotent in our hate, because the winner-take-all electoral college systems most states use disenfranchise us all anyway. We're all angry at each other instead of at the system that got us here.

And that system is set by our state governments, which elections get no attention at all..

Edited by Omega, 20 July 2016 - 10:05 PM.

[Virgil Vox]

Quote

Damn, you just described exactly how I feel.  Maybe we should just vent for a while to maybe get rid of the dirt from the primaries.

My biggest fear this primary season, is how many people the hate appealed to.  I had no idea our country had so many people that actually feel so anti-humanity.

Venting does sound good. I agree with you about just how scary it is that so many people have jumped on the hate wagon. Trump has spewed a lot of racist, sexist, hate filled comments and instead of making him un-electable it's made people love him even more and agree with his ideas. It's turned the Republican Party (which wasn't exactly the party of peace and love and let's all get along to begin with) into a party, that at least from my perspective, is filled with a lot of angry people who hate women, anyone not white, and the LGBT community.

I can understand why a lot of people don't like Hillary and would not vote for her. She has her problems, which Omega summed up quite nicely. I don't understand how people can view Trump as a viable alternative though. He flips flops more than any other candidate I've ever seen, has set no clear policy issues other than building a wall to keep out Mexicans, has a ton of failed business ventures, won't distance himself from an endorsement from the KKK, comes up with childish nicknames for his opponents, seems to have no grasp on how to actually run a country, and just spews forth hate filled remarks just about every time he opens his mouth. Sure, he speaks his mind which is what seems to make a lot of people like him. That doesn't mean he'd make a good President, especially when what he says is horribly dumb all the time.

This isn't even me being partisan. If Trump was the Democratic nominee I'd be saying the same thing. This is not a man who should have any political office, let alone the Presidency of the United States. The fact that so many people think he should be president has me genuinely confused. I mean, I feel like everyone else is completely sure the Emperor is wearing clothes but I'm just seeing a naked man walking around and wondering what's wrong with me that I'm not seeing the clothes he's supposedly wearing.

Quote

This election is an extreme example of many problems with our entire system of elections.

I agree, but I don't think anything will be done to fix it unless something major happens. If Trump had lost the nomination at the convention I'd think we would see a lot of people interested in fixing the system but otherwise people don't care.

[Lord of the Sword]

Virgil Vox, on 20 July 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

. I don't understand how people can view Trump as a viable alternative though. He flips flops more than any other candidate I've ever seen, has set no clear policy issues other than building a wall to keep out Mexicans, has a ton of failed business ventures, won't distance himself from an endorsement from the KKK, comes up with childish nicknames for his opponents, seems to have no grasp on how to actually run a country, and just spews forth hate filled remarks just about every time he opens his mouth. Sure, he speaks his mind which is what seems to make a lot of people like him. That doesn't mean he'd make a good President, especially when what he says is horribly dumb all the time.

His flip flops are taken as naivety, as coming from a non politician. Which IS something that appeals to a lot of people who are fed up with Politicians saying one thing and once elected, turning around and doing the exact opposite. Of people tired of bought and paid for politicians, whose allegiance isn't to the people but the special interests. So they are willing to take the risk on someone who speaks his mind, who isn't a cookie cutter politician.

There are several areas of concern, I have with Trump. Chief among them...I honestly don't know how Trump is going to react, if elected, to dealing with people he can neither walk away from (as in walking away from a business deal) and with people he can't fire. There is a lot, and I do mean a lot of people angry with Obama and the things he has done. Trump, for better or worse, has tapped into that anger. He manipulated the main stream media perfectly. All of his comments, IMO, were designed to get just the reaction the media gave...constant, non stop, coverage of Trump. Which kept his name in the forefront.

These people angry at Obama also see Hillary as literally a third Obama term...which frankly scares the hell out of them.

I've never really paid much attention to the primary races, til this election. And I got to say...On the GOP side, it reminded me of Jr and Sr high school. And THAT is actually insulting to Jr and Sr High School students. On the Democratic side, Hillary started off with over 300 super delegates...talk about a rigged system. Combine that with races being called by coin tosses, and playing High Card wins that race...I'll concede that the political process does need a lot of work.

[Cait]

Quote

This isn't even me being partisan. If Trump was the Democratic nominee I'd be saying the same thing. This is not a man who should have any political office, let alone the Presidency of the United States.

This.

[gsmonks]

The people who are pro-Trump are either morons, or if not, are misguided.

The people who are anti-Clinton/Obama tend to be ignorant trolls who shouldn't have a right to vote, but do.

Trump is a sociopath.

Clinton is a party shill who will make extremely bad decisions driven by Feminazi overcompensation, with trying to show how tough she is at the top of the list.

Ego at the top always gets people at the bottom killed in large numbers.

There is a possibility that, come November, neither candidate will be in the running.

[RJDiogenes]

We're living in the Winter of Hate-- right at the opposite pole of the Summer of Love. And it may take us another fifty years to get back.  People have gone truly crazy.

yadda yadda, on 20 July 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Yeah, it's a bit like discovering in 'The Time Machine', (the original from the 60's) that what you thought was a comparatively peaceful, idyllic society in the future is filled with murederous slavering troglodictic Morlocks, lurking underground, out of sight.

Until they come up and eat the Hippies.

Omega, on 20 July 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

Hillary is the nominee because of concerns about electability, caused by a locked in two party system, caused by pick-one voting.  

Once again, I put forward my token advocacy of election reform-- ranked voting and the elimination of the Electoral College.

[Omega]

Approval voting is better than any of the many forms of ranked voting, but you're headed the right way!

[sierraleone]

I liked re-weighted range voting myself, though that would only work for elections where you have more than one slot open, so it is best for getting more proportional representation in elected bodies like the House.

[Omega]

Yes! Proportional representation kills gerrymandering.

[RJDiogenes]

What's the advantage of approval voting?  It just seems like ranked voting without specifying a preference.

[Omega]

Ranked voting has many forms, with different advantages and disadvantages. Some are nonmonotonic; ranking someone higher can hurt them. Bad idea. Others are difficult to explain in plain emglish; believe me, I've tried. Others are computationally impossible. And all require new voting machines.

Approval voting is dead simple, and has all the advantages of any ranked system with none of the disadvantages.

[sierraleone]

We finally have something to compare the two nominees for President (because, frankly, they weren't comparable on any other metric so far...).

So we have two Vice Presidential Candidates.

My initial reaction?


Republican Mike Pence - Governor of Indiana

Trump was originally expected to be a risky candidate to back. That is, not safe or expected to do well, with the G.O.P. base. *Maybe* the centre/centre-right if through some wacky kaleidoscope, or heck, even left at times considering his lack of consistency. So, it appears that after Trump's search process for a running-mate he ending up going with what may be thought the safe-choice (unusual for him). That is, the choice which should help shore up the G.O.P. religious right-wing, especially if they remember Trump's favourite bible verse was "Two corinthians". Though maybe the list of willing running-mates was short....

Democrat Tim Kaine - Virginia Senator

Clinton was the safe candidate to back for Democrats. She seems a cautious and measured politician. One might argue that after the rough bruising of Bernie Sanders and the pulling to the left that she might consider it safer to pick a progressive candidate that would would bring out that passion. With this pick It appears the she expects fear of her opposition to whip the progressive wing into the voting booth for her, as she went with a pick of a pretty centrist running mate, though very qualified, like herself (due to this, she probably sees him as a safe choice for running mate). He may have been on the short list for Barack Obama's running mate, but the political landscape has change dramatically in 8 years IMO. He has good qualities and bad qualities, but I can't imagine the progressive wing liking him pushing bank de-regulation and TPP before this week, he seems an uninspiring choice. It should help her with his state though, which is a swing state IIRC.


Summary: so with one of the, if not most, unusual primary elections in U.S. history, with the two candidates with the highest unfavourables on record, they both made the decision to go with the perceived safe choice. For the unusual Republican candidate Trump that meant a candidate to shore up the religious right-wing base. For the Democratic candidate Clinton that meant another centre-left on the ticket, hoping her ticket will pick up both centrist and progressives due to the fear of crazy Trump and his right-wing running mate.

I probably have some knowledge gaps on the running-mates, especially Tim Kaine, and I'd would be glad to hear other's views.

Edited by sierraleone, 22 July 2016 - 09:55 PM.

[Nonny]

Most folks seem to be ignoring the fact that we haven't actually gotten to the final stage of this election yet. Those of us who support Sanders are not doing it because we're against having a female president; we're mighty tired of this "vote for the lesser evil" business, and we're angry at how this "lesser evil" business is being used in this election.

If the DNC needs to pile this much sh*t on another candidate to keep theirs in the race, shouldn't they have addressed her issues early on? I wonder if those of us expressing concerns about her for years would have been satisfied with the answers. I suspect I'll never know, but I do know that a good, honest man who has worked for the people for decades is still running, and that he continues in spite of all that the leaked emails.



9 Leaked Emails the DNC Doesn’t Want You to See
http://usuncut.com/p...leaks-9-emails/

Quote

20,000 new emails released by WikiLeaks on Friday show multiple examples of the Democratic National Committee coordinating with the Clinton campaign and major media figures to both build up Hillary Clinton and trash Bernie Sanders, all while claiming neutrality to the public. But the astonishingly deep level of collaboration and coordination has still gone unreported.

As of right now, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Hillary Clinton, or Bernie Sanders have all ignored the growing controversy surrounding the leaked emails. But the contents of the emails are likely to stir up tension between rivaling factions of delegates at the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia next week.
Here are nine of the most egregious examples of the DNC actively working with the media and the Clinton campaign to smear Sanders:

[Nonny]

By Picking Anti-Abortion Tim Kaine, Hillary Is Testing Feminists’ Loyalty

http://www.slate.com..._president.html

Quote

... How much should progressives care that Clinton picked Kaine, a man who has loyally voted with his party on abortion in the Senate, but who created barriers for women in the state of Virginia?...

[sierraleone]

Nonny, on 23 July 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Most folks seem to be ignoring the fact that we haven't actually gotten to the final stage of this election yet. Those of us who support Sanders are not doing it because we're against having a female president; we're mighty tired of this "vote for the lesser evil" business, and we're angry at how this "lesser evil" business is being used in this election.
...
9 Leaked Emails the DNC Doesn’t Want You to See
http://usuncut.com/p...leaks-9-emails/
...

My understanding was that Bernie did not have enough delegates to win the Democratic primary, and for him to win would mean re-rewriting or ignoring the DMC rules.

Regarding the email I had heard yesterday that there was a pending wiki-leak regarding Clinton and emails and I had erroneously thought it was regarding the email scandal from when she was Secretary of State. I haven't had much time to read this further, but from what little I know, unfortunently I don't expect this to change who ends up the Democratic nominee. The DNC is probably allowed to favour a candidate, and even if they aren't, or it looks bad, the DNC would be the ones that would have to subvert their own process in Democratic convention and/or ignore the primary popular vote. Some might see it as a correction of their previous wrongs vis a vis Sanders, but at which point do you say that some primary voters for Clinton were duped somehow by the DNC to not vote Sanders? No one likes to be made look like they were duped. This basically makes everyone look bad, or possible dupes, except for Sanders.

IIUC Clinton won 55.2% of the popular vote, Sanders 43.1%. That is quite the gap in an election. I suppose one would try to make the argument that between the momentum of Clinton winning (which wasn't always clear according to some, Bernie did win 23 contests...), and perhaps some Sanders votes just stayed home...

Any outcome is likely to piss off a lot of people. I thought the Republican convention was dysfunctional, but this wiki-leak could show there is just as much division in the Democrats. Though I wonder how much the division is between the "lay" people, of both parties, and the parties' leadership. With centrists lost in the desert....

Nonny, on 23 July 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

By Picking Anti-Abortion Tim Kaine, Hillary Is Testing Feminists’ Loyalty

http://www.slate.com..._president.html

Quote

... How much should progressives care that Clinton picked Kaine, a man who has loyally voted with his party on abortion in the Senate, but who created barriers for women in the state of Virginia?...

I had heard that he was "personally pro-life" yesterday, but was under the impression that it didn't affect his public policy... (like Joe Biden, another Catholic, was my understanding). From that link... Abstinence-only sex eduction? Really??? Isn't that a contradiction in terms??? How can sex education be abstinence-only? Abstinence = no sex. That is like holding a class on animal sources of dietary proteins and spending the whole time telling people how to avoid it, not eat it, decline it, says no to it, with useful and factual information no where to be seen.... Is Ignorance on sex is what we want for future adult citizens?

I don't care for people saying they are personal pro-life and pro-choice for everyone else (and I used to express this opinion/position as a teen and young adult. Not quite sure why *shrugs*). But he is never going to harbour a fetus in his body, so he is never going to have to personally confront making such a decision for himself. He can only contemplate it in the abstract. A woman is more likely to have to decide whether to shave their beard or not, than a cis-man is every going to have to decide whether to unharbour a squatting fetus. It appears I have bucked the trend of getting more conservative as one ages.

Edited by sierraleone, 23 July 2016 - 11:38 AM.

[sierraleone]

Reading more about Tim Kaine he has more good points in the pro column, than bad points in the con, from my perspective. So if I weigh each point equally then he seems a reasonable pick. I don't know if some of these points would be weighed more heavily by some, we will just have to see how this is taken by the rank and file party members, as well as the centrists/independents.

Edited by sierraleone, 23 July 2016 - 01:29 PM.