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How did the Democrats lose, and where do they go from here? [post elec

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#21 sierraleone

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 04:24 PM

Well this article in the NY mag is depressing me. Particularly:

Quote

The heartbreaking conclusion, of course, was that the hopeful, future-­looking coalition would break down in the most depressing of ways: 53 percent of white women voters chose Donald Trump, a man who has been accused by over a dozen women of sexual assault or harassment, rather than Hillary Clinton, who not only is a woman but ran on a raft of policies that would better support women. ... White women voters have consistently marked their ballots Republican since the 1970s: 56 percent of them voted for Romney over Obama in 2012, 53 percent for McCain over Obama in 2008, 55 percent for George W. Bush over John Kerry in 2004. The last time more white women voted for the Democratic candidate was actually 1996, for Bill Clinton.


I suppose some would say, you should be proud of them, they didn't vote based on their gender. That is not what I am thinking. It is not just the democrat candidate, but the republican one too. Comparing their policy differences, their temperament difference, and their fricken resumes. Say what you want about Romney's and McCain's policies, but they were at least fit for the office.

Quote

There has been a lot of talk in this election about Hillary Clinton’s failure to adequately appeal to America’s working-class white men, who are suffering from the collapse of manufacturing and coal industries and plagued by a heroin epidemic. But maybe a woman trying to build a coalition of marginalized groups, and espousing policies that would help those groups, simply could never have appealed to Trump’s base — even though those policies would also have helped that base. Yes, Clinton was weak on trade. Yes, she made money giving speeches to Wall Street. Yes, she was an Establishment candidate in a populist era. But Occam’s razor suggests that a wave of white men and women, low-income to college-educated, who came out in unanticipated numbers to vote against the female successor to a black president, and for a candidate whose supporters openly proposed imprisoning and killing both of them, were not acting wholly in response to Clinton’s waffling on TPP. Even suggesting that, critics are told, is exacerbating the problem: Alienating white men (and women) by noting that they responded to racism, sexism, and xenophobia is apparently more grievous a political miscalculation than giving voice to racism, sexism, and xenophobia.

Well, no one likes to be insulted, fictitiously or truthfully.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#22 Cait

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 07:28 PM

No one likes it when a mirror is held up to their faces.  Now, with a Trump win, they can go about their business and not have to face the fact that an element of every charge of racism, xenophobia, homophobia, and sexism rests in their heart of hearts.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#23 sierraleone

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 08:02 PM

I think I shared it somewhere in the original election thread, an article about how how candidates were a reflection of the sickness in our culture. Trump was the mirror reflecting this cultural sickness. Clinton was the mask hiding/obscuring this cultural sickness and pretending it didn't exist and everything is fine.

Maybe electing DT may be a good thing. The first step to dealing with a problem is admitting it does exist, and electing HRC would just have convinced us it even if that sickness it there it can be ignored and the problem will go away.

And not just all the ism you mentioned, but other problems like classism/income inequality… elitism(in gov & media)/lack of respect & out of touch with the peoples…. jobs/automation/corporations' incentives for short-term gain & answering to share-holders only …. capitalism/sustainability… special interests/corporate personhood… government corruption…

Among others - Aging infrastructure... imperilled clean drinking water like in Flint… criminal justice reform. I am sure there is more.

While HRC would have nimbled around the edges of these issues, she would not have tackled them heartily. And because people thought DT was going to give a big middle finger to the powers-that-be that either benefit from the status-quo and/or don't care and/or incompetent/ineffective… They hitch themselves to his wagon.

Some of these things are cultural though. Vote with your wallet, vote with your clicks, as much as you are able to do so. While some people can't just start changing their purchasing habits, depend on their financial situation, the very least one can do is change the media that they consume. The 24/7 media is incentivized for conflict/drama, because that gets eye-balls. Resist the urge and try to follow media that isn't all sound-bites. Aim to be informed, not entertained.

Edited by sierraleone, 13 November 2016 - 09:23 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#24 Nonny

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 08:31 PM

And now they're grooming Chelsea? NO! NO WAY! NO HOW!
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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#25 sierraleone

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 08:41 PM

I actually came across a independent media covering this thread's topic.

They actually partly blamed Obama for this. Lets see if I can summarize this 35 minute thing quickly...

- When Obama took office in 2008 he gutted the DNC and diverted funding to the database/program he had staffers build that helped him win election.

- Obama basically discarded the previous DNC Chair Howard Dean's 50-state-strategy in favour of this (Howard Dean was arguing they needed to focus on the state-level races too. Hard to say he was wrong based on where things are with the state races and how states are being used to experiment with things like TRAP laws).

- Obama managed to install Debbie Wasserman Schults as DNC Chair, who many say was a bad choice. She was chosen because she is good at fundraising, and comes from a rich area in Florida that gives lots of money to the DNC. She is also a Congressperson and many in the DNC have argued even if she wasn't a poor head they need someone who can commit to being DNC chair full-time.

- Between the DNC dealing with the debt of BHO and HRC running in 2008, BHO in 2012, they do not have a robust of an operation and funding as they should have. And part of back-room dealing between BHO and HRC in 2008 for her full support was not just Secretary of State, but to take care of her campaigning debt. IIRC BHO also made a deal to do fundraiser for the DNC to help with his campaign debt, but it sound like he didn't complete that. My attention started wandering here, insider-baseball and all that...

- VP Joe Biden/JB had actually contemplated running, but BHO convinced him in fall 2015 that is was too late to jump in. BHO did this in order to help HRC. The reason the reporter covering this story mentions this, is that they argue that JB, while an insider, is authentic, and can be a bit folksy, and that he would have been able to talk to people hurting economically in the midwest and perhaps convince them not to jump off the cliff. I am not positive of that, he probably would have been seen as an extension of an admin that has been perceived by those hurting in the midwest to have not done enough. But it certainly would have been a different campaign.

- Lastly, the DNC miscalculated when they thought they could get the white-women vote. No change, and they didn't focus enough on getting out their reliable voters. Radio ads started playing constantly on black radio only 2 days before the election. HRC lost the share of minority votes compared to BHO in 2008 & 2012.

Mostly insider baseball, but it is not good when you have weakened an organization that supports your party, as it looks like BHO has contributed to such happenings with the DNC.

Only one of many components that led to such a dismal showing for HRC against the worst candidate ever.

Edited by sierraleone, 13 November 2016 - 10:11 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#26 sierraleone

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 08:45 PM

View PostNonny, on 13 November 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

And now they're grooming Chelsea? NO! NO WAY! NO HOW!

I saw that and I had the same reaction. She takes more after her mother in personality than her father, and politics just doesn't seem suited for her. Even if she was, the U.S. has had enough of political dynasties and the implied insider/elitism that goes along with it. Why do they think Jeb Bush did so poorly, and HRC couldn't win against the worst candidate ever?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#27 243Skunk

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 08:49 PM

^ Biden would have kicked Trump's butt. It would have removed the allure of a straightalking candidate vs. a polished political insider, which was Trump's biggest asset.

#28 Cait

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 09:27 PM

View Post243Skunk, on 13 November 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

^ Biden would have kicked Trump's butt. It would have removed the allure of a straightalking candidate vs. a polished political insider, which was Trump's biggest asset.

Agreed.  But then, I've always been a big Uncle Joe fan.  I voted for him in the 2008 primaries.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#29 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 05:12 AM

View PostNonny, on 13 November 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

And now they're grooming Chelsea? NO! NO WAY! NO HOW!

On this one we can agree completely. LOL.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#30 gsmonks

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 05:59 AM

Addressing the question, Where do the Democrats go from here?, I would say that they should slither back under the rock they crawled from underneath. Better yet, the rock should be used to pound their ugly heads in.

They're just another gang of privileged bourgeois crooks who have no intention of fixing what ails the Middle Class. The Middle Class has got to the point where they're infuriated by the Dems slimy bait 'n' switch tactics. After each election, they don't revitalise dead and dying cities and states, they don't go after Wall Street, they don't tax the filthy rich, they don't prevent jobs from leaving the country, they don't raise the minimum wage in a meaningful way, they promise aid to hard-hit sectors but drag their heels when it comes to actually doing anything . . . in short, they pander to the Left when they're actually occupying the same centre space as the so-called "right".

You see the same thing in other countries, Canada included. In Canada, the Liberals, Conservatives, and NDP, are all small "c" conservatives. The NDP calls itself a social democratic party, but that platform was abandoned back in the 70's when they realised they had to be in bed with Big Business in order to get in and maintain power.

Big Business has the power these days to gerrymander everything from elections to social conditions leading up to elections. They routinely deliberately wreck Provincial and State economies in order to suck the voters into voting for "the party that will create jobs". This Draconian tactic is especially effective in one-industry areas where they put the squeeze on jobs in order to force a favourable political outcome.

Translation: if a politician, from any party, wants to improve the economy, corrupt Big Business interests will deliberately grind that economy into the ground in order to force concessions from the politicians.

This is why wages haven't gone anywhere since the 70's, why the minimum wage is stuck in 1930's below-the-poverty-line territory, why relations in upper and middle management in businesses that deal with the public are so toxic, why unions have been systematically dismantled since the 1970's, and most important- why the modern politician is such a craven worm when it comes to representing the interests of the Middle Class.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#31 sierraleone

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 07:54 AM

^ I don't see anyone rising high enough in any party (even a new one, if it is in the traditional mould) to make a difference do so without ended up beholden to interests far from the interests of the people. Someone would have to remain principled and resistant against such influence, and sacrifice their future, to get that high and then betray all those interests. And would have to have enough allies that they could get anything done.

We have got to get money out of politics. Convincing the backs that are greased by such to do so is going to be extremely difficult….
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#32 gsmonks

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 10:13 AM

That's the problem with Democrat-minded people right there. Trying to convince these creeps of anything is a non-starter. There is no negotiating with fanatics- which is what we're really talking about here. The monied types are fanatics. Those on the right are religious fanatics who want to turn the US (and Canada, and Britain) into a theocracy.

Rules have to be written in stone and strictly enforced.

Even lining 'em up against a stone wall and machine-gunning these creeps won't deter them. They're fanatics. The Wall Street types are like crack addicts when it comes to money. They'd risk death, and sell their own children, if there was a get-rich scheme involved.

Instead of being cracked down on, Wall Street got a free blowjob for destroying the economy. What we as citizens have learned from the experience is that the government cannot be relied upon to deal with these social parasites- not the Right, not the Left, not any of the usual suspects.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#33 Elara

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM

View PostNonny, on 13 November 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

And now they're grooming Chelsea? NO! NO WAY! NO HOW!

And what has Chelsea done wrong?
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#34 yadda yadda

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 02:29 PM

View PostElara, on 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on 13 November 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

And now they're grooming Chelsea? NO! NO WAY! NO HOW!

And what has Chelsea done wrong?

Well, undoubtedly she's probably sent an e-mail or two in her life. That's obviously disqualifying.

#35 sierraleone

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 03:06 PM

View Postgsmonks, on 14 November 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

That's the problem with Democrat-minded people right there. Trying to convince these creeps of anything is a non-starter. There is no negotiating with fanatics- which is what we're really talking about here. The monied types are fanatics. Those on the right are religious fanatics who want to turn the US (and Canada, and Britain) into a theocracy.

Rules have to be written in stone and strictly enforced.

Hence your signature :D Which I agree with. Ever-increasing profit doesn't ever sync with sustainability or a finite world. I guess that is why they have make so much new sh*t up in the finance world (i.e. fancy quasi-legitimate sounding schemes) to find news ways to make more money….

Edited by sierraleone, 14 November 2016 - 03:41 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#36 Nonny

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 05:45 PM

View PostElara, on 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on 13 November 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

And now they're grooming Chelsea? NO! NO WAY! NO HOW!

And what has Chelsea done wrong?

I do not want the Clintons to sharp elbow all the Democrats who could make a good President out of the way to create a dynasty. I'm tired of Clintons.
Posted Image


The once and future Nonny

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Can anyone tell me who I am quoting?  I found this with no attribution.

Fatal miscarriages are forever.

Stupid is stupid, this I believe. And ignorance is the worst kind of stupid, since ignorance is a choice.  Suzanne Brockmann

All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings. Diderot

#37 sierraleone

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 06:06 PM

View Postgsmonks, on 14 November 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

Translation: if a politician, from any party, wants to improve the economy, corrupt Big Business interests will deliberately grind that economy into the ground in order to force concessions from the politicians.

This is why wages haven't gone anywhere since the 70's, why the minimum wage is stuck in 1930's below-the-poverty-line territory, why relations in upper and middle management in businesses that deal with the public are so toxic, why unions have been systematically dismantled since the 1970's, and most important- why the modern politician is such a craven worm when it comes to representing the interests of the Middle Class.

So even if we were to get someone in there who had ideas that are good for the people and implements them…. Those with sh*t-tonnes to loose (say 99 times more than everyone else…) decide it is better to loose a little grinding the economy so they can place the blame on the person trying to fix the problem… so that the voters will next time grovel back to their lackey candidate, because they are the ones actually really suffering under the economy troubles those in power caused…. And even if that President/congress/senate got firm laws and rules in place, the next group will ignore and/or undo them…. :sick:
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#38 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 03:25 AM

As much as some in the media are trying to pin the blame solely on the DNC and Clinton and some uncontrollable factors, sexism, racism, the populist mood, etc, that they didn't know how to turn to their advantage....

It may be due to pragmatism and wanting to win (which is fair enough - but also a good idea), looks like Warren realizes there are more crucial factors to recognize.  

Basically, lack of Democrat success to point too, bad messaging (the subtext of Trump's message was "I'm with you" for those hurt by elites or in this economy), and it's the economy stupid.

https://www.bostongl...66DI/story.html

Edited by sierraleone, 15 November 2016 - 03:25 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#39 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 04:59 AM

View PostElara, on 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

And what has Chelsea done wrong?

Well she did say that she wanted illegals to be covered under Obamacare. Essentially she wanted taxpayer dollars to pay for free health care for people that shouldn't be in the country.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#40 yadda yadda

yadda yadda
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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:25 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 15 November 2016 - 04:59 AM, said:

View PostElara, on 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

And what has Chelsea done wrong?

Well she did say that she wanted illegals to be covered under Obamacare. Essentially she wanted taxpayer dollars to pay for free health care for people that shouldn't be in the country.

LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP!



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