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How did the Democrats lose, and where do they go from here? [post elec

democrats liberals prez45 clinton bernie sanders

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#41 gsmonks

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:29 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 15 November 2016 - 04:59 AM, said:

View PostElara, on 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

And what has Chelsea done wrong?

Well she did say that she wanted illegals to be covered under Obamacare. Essentially she wanted taxpayer dollars to pay for free health care for people that shouldn't be in the country.

We do that here in Canada because it's cheaper to take care of people, by far, than to neglect them. In other words, the reasons for doing so are pragmatic, not "bleeding heart liberal".

If you want to read up on companies that have interfered with Democracy to get a desired Conservative political outcome, start with Alcan, who have run the gamut from strike-breaking to economic interference to a long list of abuses.

This is just the latest example of an Alcan scab-fest. Didn't hear a peep about it on the news? That's not surprising either. There wasn't so much as a squeak about this from the rats on the Left. The Dems in the US are just as two-faced when it comes to representing workers.

http://www.internati...caneng1202.html

Edited by gsmonks, 15 November 2016 - 06:31 AM.

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#42 Elara

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 01:13 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 15 November 2016 - 04:59 AM, said:

View PostElara, on 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

And what has Chelsea done wrong?

Well she did say that she wanted illegals to be covered under Obamacare. Essentially she wanted taxpayer dollars to pay for free health care for people that shouldn't be in the country.

Hillary said something like that, not Chelsea.

Hillary:

Quote

“thinks it’s so important to extend the Affordable Care Act to people who are living and working here, regardless of immigration status, regardless of citizenship status,”

And:

Quote

But Clinton has also promised she will largely stop deportations of foreigners who sneak into the United States. “I would not deport children. I do not want to deport family members either,”

Your version tells about half of the story. Not a lie, but not the truth.
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#43 Elara

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 01:22 PM

View PostNonny, on 14 November 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

View PostElara, on 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

View PostNonny, on 13 November 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

And now they're grooming Chelsea? NO! NO WAY! NO HOW!

And what has Chelsea done wrong?

I do not want the Clintons to sharp elbow all the Democrats who could make a good President out of the way to create a dynasty. I'm tired of Clintons.

So, she is guilty before she has even done anything? So, you are guilty of what your parents did? You deserved a chance to be yourself and to do the good things you have done, why doesn't she get that same chance? No matter what you believe/think about her parents, it's not right, nor fair to dump that on Chelsea.
Sorry, but I do not understand this type of thinking, never have, never will.
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#44 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 01:37 PM

View PostElara, on 15 November 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

So, she is guilty before she has even done anything? So, you are guilty of what your parents did? You deserved a chance to be yourself and to do the good things you have done, why doesn't she get that same chance? No matter what you believe/think about her parents, it's not right, nor fair to dump that on Chelsea.
Sorry, but I do not understand this type of thinking, never have, never will.

She is not guilty of anything at this time. But she is coming from a dynasty with a whole bunch of unhappy special interests who have lost tonnes of money on her mother's campaign with nothing to show for it. I saw this angle brought up on-line.

Again, she is not guilty of anything at this time. (Known anyways). But what are the chances the monied interests behind her parents are not going to try to get back what they are owed through Chelsea Clinton's influence, if she gains some? This is why plenty of people don't want to give her a chance. We aren't concerned about her as an individual, but all the ties that bind. In all likelihood, if she decides to pursue politics, Chelsea will be leaning on those ties as much as she is able to gain position and influence. And those ties will want their backs scratched too. If she turns her back on them I don't see her getting very far.

Edited by sierraleone, 15 November 2016 - 01:39 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#45 gsmonks

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 02:56 PM

She's too brainwashed to be anything but a Democratic insider.

Eager girl scouts tend to want to please their elders and peers.
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#46 yadda yadda

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:37 PM

It's interesting that misogyny is such a non-partisan failing. Keeps my dampened faith in humanity in balance with the universal flux.

#47 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 10:10 PM

I remember people arguing we can't go as far left as Sanders, we have to be centrist to appeal to a wider base. Independents, centrist-Republicans, never-Trumpers. Well that didn't work out well either. Liberals have got to believe their own fricken values, but they don't, whether it is because they are too craven, and in the pocket of special interests opposed to liberal economic values (oh, liberal social values fine, good PR, expands talent pool, makes them money).

However, this is what happened in 2008, yet the repeat the same recipe this year and expect to the work when it flopped then? Obama ran to the left of Hillary (not as left as Sanders), and ended up beating her in the Primary, and he went on to become President. (granted he has been very solidly centrist since). Now Clinton tried moving further left, adopting/adapting Sander's ideas, but few thought she was being sincere and would following thru, and fight for these if needed… I wonder if it is partly because they were left high and dry by Obama? Hope and change ending up looking a lot more like the same? Liberals have got to believe in their values, stand up for their values, and share their values.

I wonder if Obama is going to be able to salvage anything of his legacy. He ended up a very pragmatic centrist President, even before he lost congress in year 3. And his biggest headliners when it comes to legacy are under threat by Trump and gang. Personality, grace, decorum and a steady status-quo hand? I suppose it is better than what I imaging under Trump...

Edited by sierraleone, 15 November 2016 - 10:35 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#48 sierraleone

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 10:18 PM

Looks like Obama is starting to realize the error that I had pointed out in post#25 which was that he had gutted the DNC, and got out of the 50-state strategy the pre-2008 DNC chair was working on.

https://www.washingt...mocratic-party/

Quote

Barack Obama made one thing very clear in his first post-election news conference Monday: He thinks that the infrastructure of the Democratic Party is badly in need of an overhaul.
...
Yep. And an argument can be made that much of Obama's involvement in the 2016 campaign was aimed at protecting/promoting his own legacy.

Edited by sierraleone, 15 November 2016 - 10:41 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#49 gsmonks

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 06:43 AM

In Brave New World, Aldous Huxley warned of the consequences of having too big an audience (aka population). As the population grows, all your policies get watered down because of population diversity. You eventually reach a point where the wheels come off because you can't appease everyone. And when your population gets big enough, you can't appease anyone.

Yet another reason bigger isn't better.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#50 sierraleone

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 06:56 PM

Ouch. Apparently for all the hooting and hollering about Clinton's superior ground game, they neglected the ground game in the Rustbelt/Midwest, the places she couldn't loose, and did.

http://www.huffingto...4b058ce7aa8b861
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#51 sierraleone

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 05:37 PM

Found an article about a study that looked into factors that predict support for Trump, and that economic dissatisifaction, while a part, is not nearly the strongest correlation. Yep, bigotry, specifically of the racist and hostile sexism variety (interestingly benevolent sexism wasn't correlated). The study is linked in the article.

http://www.vox.com/i...m-economy-study

Quote

At some point, you might start to wonder why journalists keep writing about the link between Trump’s support and bigoted beliefs. The election is done. Do we really need to analyze what happened over and over again?

The point, at least for me, is not to demonize Trump voters. The point is to understand them in order to better grasp how they could vote for someone who ran a clearly bigoted campaign and who most voters agreed is unqualified for the nation’s highest office.

As Schaffner, MacWilliams, and Nteta write in their paper, there’s growing evidence that 2016 was unique — in that racism and sexism played a more powerful role than recent presidential elections. “Specifically, we find no statistically significant relationship between either the racism or sexism scales and favorability ratings of either [Republican candidate] John McCain or Mitt Romney,” they write. “However, the pattern is quite strong for favorability ratings of Donald Trump.”

The concern, then, is that this is the beginning of a modern trend in which politicians like Trump directly and explicitly play into people’s prejudices to win elections — and it works.

If that’s really what’s happening, it’s important for progressives and anyone interested in limiting the power of bigotry in US politics to know and demonstrate what’s going on. Studies like this put a bigger imperative on getting to the root of the problem and figuring out ways to reduce people’s racial or gendered biases.

To this end, the research also shows it’s possible to reach out to Trump voters — even those who are racist or sexist today — in an empathetic way without condoning their bigotries. The evidence suggests, in fact, that the best way to weaken people’s racial or other biases is through frank, empathetic dialogue. (Much more on that in my in-depth piece on the research.) Given that, the best approach to really combating racism and sexism may be empathy.

One study, for example, found that canvassing people’s homes and having a 10-minute, nonconfrontational conversation about transgender rights — in which people’s lived experiences were relayed so they could understand how prejudice feels personally — managed to reduce voters’ anti-transgender attitudes for at least three months. Perhaps a similar model could be adapted to reach out to people with racist, sexist, or other deplorable views, although this possibility needs more study.


Again, as has been stated upthread, but no means do I believe that bigotry is the one and only factor. But it is a part. And due to the number of factors any single factor could be blamed. So liberals have got to work on all of them. We need better candidates (and not of the traditional mould), a better ground game, a less corrupt DNC, less corporate-owned democrats, a 50 state strategy, need to engage the youth/democrats to avoid low turnout, don't ignore economic dissatisfaction & make sure that the needs of regular people (middle & lower class) have a voice and place in our party.

And apparently liberals/democrats/decent people need to figure out how to enlighten people with bigotry using empathy. Hold them with regard and show them the empathy that they withhold with others. FSM help us.


The thing is, I can see that perhaps, for racism, homophobia, transphobia, that it could be due to lack of exposure or interactions with said group. (Which is why the culture around perception of gay people has changed so drastically, they are likely to be in most extended families and when they refused to stay in the closet anymore people had to decide between, or uncomfortably reconcile, their conflicting feelings of homophobia and love. At least in loving functional families). Um, what about sexism? Everyone knows some women right? So how does sexism (included women with internalized misogyny that are sexist against women) even develop? That is some f'd up Jedi-mind trick. Some kinda of mass cultural gas lighting or something.

Edited by sierraleone, 07 January 2017 - 06:07 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#52 gsmonks

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:44 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 15 November 2016 - 04:59 AM, said:

View PostElara, on 14 November 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

And what has Chelsea done wrong?

Well she did say that she wanted illegals to be covered under Obamacare. Essentially she wanted taxpayer dollars to pay for free health care for people that shouldn't be in the country.

By "illegals", I'm guessing you mean rich people who don't pay taxes and don't contribute to the economy? The one-percenter-parasites who suck up all the profits made by everyone else?

You can't possibly be referring to all the non-US-citizens who are the backbone of the US economy, because that would make no sense.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#53 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 12:44 PM

As of now there are over 3 dozen racist, bigoted, Democrats refusing to attending the inauguration of the next President.

I got to hand it to these racist, they are practically guaranteeing a second term for Trump. Not only are they REFUSING TO ACCEPT ELECTION RESULTS, something they feared Republicans would do. But they are stuck in the first stage of grief, denial. Or perhaps this temper tantrum of theirs is their way of moving out of denial into anger?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#54 Cait

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 01:30 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 17 January 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

Not only are they REFUSING TO ACCEPT ELECTION RESULTS,  

There is a difference between acceptance and opposition.  Read up on it and chill the &%$# out.  

We all have to accept the election results.  We are a nation of laws and Trump was elected and the election has been certified.  Quit confusing Trump tweets about sore losers and people simply opposed to GOP policies and/or Trumps lack of policy.  

Just as you remained opposed to the policies of Obama throughout his 8 years in office, many will remain opposed to the policies and actions of prez45.  Learn to live with it.  Opposition is part of the game called democracy.  It's the one thing that is normal about this election cycle.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#55 yadda yadda

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 03:58 PM

About those three dozen bigoted, racist, Democrats refusing to show up for the Inauguration. I can see where that might be considered gauche and disrespectful from your end of the spectrum. Would you consider it more polite, from a right wing point of view, for them all to show up and shout "YOU LIE!", GOP-style when the prevaricator-elect takes the oath of office, instead?

I know as for me, I'll be skipping the Inaugural festivities on TV this time around. My stomach couldn't handle it. I think instead I'll rent the original classic 'Red Dawn', with Patrick Swayze. Hopefully watching it again will help prepare me for Saturday morning when I look out my window and see the sky filled with Russian paratroopers, landing near the local high school, their chutes stenciled with "make America great again!", and the planes that dropped them skywriting, "Trump '16, we built that! Ain't it a pisser?!" With luck I can get to the neighborhood 7-11 for some Slim Jims and a few candy bars for my trip up the LA River channel storm drains to the local mountains. Already stashed my bow and arrows and an RPG in the trunk of my car.

WOLVERINES!!!

Edited by yadda yadda, 17 January 2017 - 05:39 PM.


#56 sierraleone

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 05:33 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 17 January 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

As of now there are over 3 dozen racist, bigoted, Democrats refusing to attending the inauguration of the next President.

I got to hand it to these racist, they are practically guaranteeing a second term for Trump. Not only are they REFUSING TO ACCEPT ELECTION RESULTS, something they feared Republicans would do. But they are stuck in the first stage of grief, denial. Or perhaps this temper tantrum of theirs is their way of moving out of denial into anger?

You are confusing two things which may look very similar.

One of them is refusing to accept reality as real.
The other is refusing to accept parts of our current reality as normal, desirable, or healthy.

Edited by sierraleone, 17 January 2017 - 05:34 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#57 sierraleone

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 03:47 PM

The election for DNC chair is happening today. Or has happened. Looks like, by a narrow margin, they have voted for Tom Perez over Keith Ellison.

I say narrow because they had to go to a second round of voting, Perez barely lost the first round, and then he must have picked up all the votes for other people running as Ellison's vote tally didn't change from one round to the next. The magic number was 214.5. Perez got 213.5 the first round vs Ellison's 200. Second time around Perez got 235 and Ellison 200. (Half of 435 is 217.5… why was 214.5 consider the magic number? Typo?)

This is not going to go over well with the progressive wing of the party. After the vote Perez appointed Ellison to the new position of DNC deputy chair. Whether that will mollify the progressive wing, and keep them engage with the democrats, of course it is way to early to say. Perez has been labelled as a old school establishment and/or corporatist democrat if I understand correctly.

http://www.startribu...erez/414782784/

And I don't know how strong a DNC deputy chair Ellison can be when some reports are saying he won't be giving up his seat in congress (like he promised to do if he became the DNC chair).

Edited by sierraleone, 25 February 2017 - 07:48 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#58 gsmonks

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 06:22 PM

Unfortunately the Democrats still don't get it. They're same the outdated, grotesque pack of louts they were before the election.

Running Billary was like playing polka music to a modern crowd of kids and expecting them to wholeheartedly join in the "fun".

People are sick to death of politics and politicians. Politicians are like classical musicians who can't get it through their thick heads that the public has long since moved on.

What the politicians can't get through their thick skulls is that politics itself is outdated, that it's nothing more than Mediaeval dog crap stuck on the soles of the shoes of modern people.

They've collectively got their heads stuffed up one person's loathsome, spotty arse, searching for answers that aren't there. The answer is so far out of the box that they haven't the first clue how or where to start looking for it.

Any participation in politics is the act of taking ten steps backwards. The fact of the matter is that we don't need politics or politicians any more. We've outgrown them. Politics was a way for tribes, thousands of years ago, to get along.

It's long past time to explore new avenues of thought.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#59 sierraleone

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 05:14 PM

^

While the chagrin(?) I feel about the Democrats is strong, do you mean politicians in general, or do you mean politicians as we know them? We need people to govern and manage our complicated and interconnected world. Who would you propose do so? Royalty? Dictators? CEOs? I mean, there may be a point about commonwealth countries doing better than the U.S. ;)

I supposed we could specifically refer to their job title instead of their job category (mayor/city counsellor, state legislator/senator/Governor, congress member/senator/President, etc). The problem is that politicians hardly govern, and could hardly be consider public servants at this point. If there is any road map back, it has to be those that govern our unwieldy and complicated world do so starting from a place of public service. Not there to service corporations or special interests, but people.

Maybe we shouldn't refer to them as politicians but as public servants (public servants currently utterly failing their job, but public servants none-the-less). It says where the emphasis of their job should be.


But your sentiment is not amiss in the sense that there is lots rotten in politics, on both sides of the aisle. I edited my post above yours slight just to clarify that the deputy chair position that Perez offered to Elison… was created out of thin air. And one of the things I came across said that procedure was not follow for the vote to make that motion, so essentially it could mean nothing at all. Entirely symbolic.

The party had a motion/vote before they did the vote for the chair. That motion/vote was over whether they would accept corporate donations. Of course, they aren't giving up corporate donations.

I read this Washington Post article about why Elison lost.

Quote

I also saw why 235 DNC members decided to back Perez. Had the race been shorter, Ellison might well have won. But a few converging factors blunted his momentum — and they weren't the factors that got the most coverage.
...
DNC members were not ready to reject the Obama legacy.
...
But the left's critique of the Obama years — that it had pursued neoliberal policies and left running room for populists such as Donald Trump — is not yet accepted across the party.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#60 yadda yadda

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 06:23 PM

Maybe we should just transition from our current corruptocracy to straight up corporate oligarchy...a la Rollerball. (the original 1975 James Caan / John Houseman version)

Edited by yadda yadda, 26 February 2017 - 06:27 PM.




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