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The Courts Vs. Muslim ban

2017 Executive Orders Muslim ban District Judge Ann Donnelly Separation of Powers

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#1 Cait

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 04:46 PM

https://www.washingt...m=.db5ab80e9fff

Quote

She had once been a government lawyer, but that night, she showed little patience for their arguments, The Post reported.
“Our own government presumably approved their entry to the country,” Donnelly said, weighing the risks of sending unknown numbers of people back across the oceans.

An ACLU lawyer interrupted the hearing to warn Donnelly that a flier was about to be deported to war-torn Syria unless she acted immediately.

Donnelly asked whether the government could guarantee that person’s safety and, unconvinced by their answer, issued her order just before 9 p.m.

Sending travelers back could cause “irreparable harm,” she ruled. She’d turned more eloquent phrases, but this time her written words were photographed and immediately shared across the world.

Discuss.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#2 gsmonks

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 05:46 PM

The court system will be the battleground.

It may also, ironically, become a wall that protects Humanity from Trump's idiocy.
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#3 sierraleone

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 05:59 PM

I am not sure at this time I have much to add that I haven't already said in the other thread.

One thing I worry, is how these will work themselves thru the court. These green card/visa/refugee status holders won a very limited victory… These decisions basically says the U.S. can't deport these persons, who where en-route to the U.S. when this decision was signed, lickity split(sp?). I assume that would automatically change their standing in a court of law if it were allowed, so these judges are essentially allowing them their day in court. But it doesn't allow them free on America soil (other institutions are making those decisions, when those detained get released). The President does have wide discretion over who comes into the U.S. Now there isn't supposed to be discrimination based on national origin, however the balance of these the government priorities, and the priorities of foreign nationals, who do not have much standing, if any, in American courts, I don't know.

One thing I want to know, from those who might be nonplussed by this, and just think the kinks need to be worked out (or just don't care about these people)…. those on the conservative side, and Trump's chants, are generally for law and order. Is this what law and order looks like? These people are not illegal immigrations, they have followed law and order and gone through all the steps to get their refugee status, get a visa and a job here, to get their green card…. We are going to pull the rug out from people being lawful and respectful of the U.S. refugee/immigration policy? Can you tell me why anyone would bother following the immigration laws in the future when they saw how those following the law got treated by the American government today? They have shown respect for the authority of the U.S. and its laws, and the U.S. spits on them. America suspects them of disloyalty to their newly adopted country while being disloyal to America's own laws and ideals.

Edited by sierraleone, 29 January 2017 - 06:18 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#4 Omega

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 06:05 PM

The executive branch is openly defying orders of a federal court. Four Congressmen carrying court orders ave been ignored. Washington state is suing. Contempt orders are coming.

Congress needs to start impeachment proceedings NOW.

#5 sierraleone

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 06:43 PM

I came across two LA Times articles. The first one describing the people that were detained at LAX (including a couple with a 6 month old), and the other about U.S. Veterans joining the airport protests in support of their Iraqi colleagues overseas who provided them aid and support during/after Iraq's invasion.

http://www.latimes.c...0128-story.html

http://www.latimes.c...0129-story.html
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#6 Cait

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 07:40 PM

View Postgsmonks, on 29 January 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

The court system will be the battleground.

It may also, ironically, become a wall that protects Humanity from Trump's idiocy.

I agree.  I was talking to a friend and I had to admit that I hadn't thought of the Courts at all re: Trump.  I had focused on Congress, but Congress is impotent.  The Courts were/are always going to be the place to redress any grievances.  That's the way it was set up.  

So, now I am watching what happens in court.  It will be interesting to see how the court battles play out.  I've always been a court watcher anyway, so watching one motion, case, appeal, after another won't be as boring as it might sound.  I just think that's where the real battle will be fought, and that's as it should be.  We are a nation of laws, and the Judicial Branch is where the laws are litigated.

I'm not encouraged, but I am a little hopeful.  I think it is going to be an uphill battle form here on out.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#7 Cait

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 07:52 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 29 January 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

One thing I want to know, from those who might be nonplussed by this, and just think the kinks need to be worked out (or just don't care about these people)…. those on the conservative side, and Trump's chants, are generally for law and order. Is this what law and order looks like? These people are not illegal immigrations, they have followed law and order and gone through all the steps to get their refugee status, get a visa and a job here, to get their green card…. We are going to pull the rug out from people being lawful and respectful of the U.S. refugee/immigration policy? Can you tell me why anyone would bother following the immigration laws in the future when they saw how those following the law got treated by the American government today? They have shown respect for the authority of the U.S. and its laws, and the U.S. spits on them. America suspects them of disloyalty to their newly adopted country while being disloyal to America's own laws and ideals.

Unless they change the law, Green card holders and those with work Visas have the same rights, before the court, as citizens.  As long as they are here legally, they have rights.  That's why they will have their day in court.  That's why ACLU lawyers were working pro bono all day and night to get a writ to a judge.  Those detainees were not allowed an attorney.  That's why the affidavit has "all those similarly held" as Plaintiffs.  They were denied attorneys, and no one knew exactly who or how many were being detained.  The court order was also valid for all detainees in whatever states.

My guess is that the Administration doesn't know the difference between people legally here under visas, etc, and the random Muslim terrorist.  [bad joke]  I don't think any of them know how to write a legal order.  This particular order is not clear on these differences, and was implemented in the most unprofessional and detrimental manner possible.  It wasn't to piss the world off imo, it was sheer stupidity.  They sat down and wrote a wild piece of crap, signed the president's name to it, and implemented it without running it by State, Defense, or Justice.  The incompetence alone should be an impeachable offense.  The Constitutionality will be litigated in court.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#8 sierraleone

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 08:10 PM

View PostCait, on 29 January 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

Unless they change the law, Green card holders and those with work Visas have the same rights, before the court, as citizens.  As long as they are here legally, they have rights.  That's why they will have their day in court.  That's why ACLU lawyers were working pro bono all day and night to get a writ to a judge.  Those detainees were not allowed an attorney.  That's why the affidavit has "all those similarly held" as Plaintiffs.  They were denied attorneys, and no one knew exactly who or how many were being detained.  The court order was also valid for all detainees in whatever states.

They just may try…. As for the rest of that sentence, that is good to know. Does that include refugees? (I am not sure what their status documents are called). I have also seen that this order would apply to asylees, those applying for asylum (26,124 people granted asylum in 2015, per DHS website, that is approximately 500/week). Though generally asylum seekers show up as unannounced refugees.

Quote

They sat down and wrote a wild piece of crap, signed the president's name to it, and implemented it without running it by State, Defense, or Justice. The incompetence alone should be an impeachable offense.  The Constitutionality will be litigated in court.

I read about that. It is astonishing incompetence.

Edited by sierraleone, 29 January 2017 - 08:11 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#9 gsmonks

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 09:55 PM

A "law & order" agenda is bourgeois-speak for thuggery that's used as a distraction from social responsibility, ie throwing desperate poor people in jail instead of fixing the social conditions that made them desperate.

It's something brainless sheltered bourgeois Righties and Democruds are equally guilty of.

If the media have a bias, it's more that they represent the bourgeois element in society than anything else: working, sheltered, suburban and urban types who think everyone lives and thinks like they do. They are the Consumers that are blissfully destroying the planet through their pig-ignorant, irresponsible, consuming ways. They are the scum of the Earth who think their poo don't stink, and they want the poor people who also want stuff to go away and die, quietly, without bothering them.

And they hide their self-dishonesty behind euphemisms like "law & order".
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#10 sierraleone

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 10:07 PM

^ Yeah. When I hear people expounding about law & order I hear a big ole dog whistle. Rarely do they talk about law & order protecting people and their civil rights, unless they are only applying it to those insulated (and/or benefiting!) from the social conditions causing social unrest.

Edited by sierraleone, 29 January 2017 - 10:09 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#11 gsmonks

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:21 AM

The pervasive Christian element in US society is a large part of what drives the thinking behind "Law & Order" and banning Muslims.

The mindless hate of "otherness" is part of what monotheism is all about.

Rather than try to deliver a lecture, here is a scholarly article on the subject. Read the whole thing, and watch for references to intolerance and monotheism:

http://www.bu.edu/ar...od_get-started/

And keep in mind, first and foremost, that this is not someone's uninformed opinion. This is an area of study at the university level.

The point being that until people in the US come to see and understand this for themselves, and in themselves, Hate for "otherness" is going to remain a festering problem.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#12 Elara

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 01:31 PM

I think you meant to say: "until people around the world come to see and understand this for themselves, and in themselves, Hate for "otherness" is going to remain a festering problem."

Considering this is not simply a USA issue.
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#13 Cait

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:01 PM

http://www.slate.com...mmigration.html

Quote

Reports abound of lawful immigrants who have been turned away, denied access to medication, and prevented from speaking to counsel. The Aziz brothers’ story is particularly stunning because, says Sandoval-Moshenberg, not only were they handcuffed while they were detained by CBP at Dulles, and not only were they turned away and sent to Ethiopia, but they were also made to sign a form, known as the I-407. In doing so, they surrendered their green cards, under the threat of being barred from the U.S. for the next five years if they did not. Sandoval-Moshenberg tells me he couldn’t quite believe the two young men “were straight-up bullied into having their green cards taken away.” They were at no point given copies of any of the documents they had signed.


This is unacceptable.  This is not our country.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#14 sierraleone

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 05:21 PM

One humble/wry comment online "I take back everything I have ever said about lawyers".

Edited by sierraleone, 30 January 2017 - 09:20 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#15 gsmonks

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 05:24 PM

View PostElara, on 30 January 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

I think you meant to say: "until people around the world come to see and understand this for themselves, and in themselves, Hate for "otherness" is going to remain a festering problem."

Considering this is not simply a USA issue.

Certainly! This is a universal problem today. But we're within the context of doings in the US in this thread, and the mentality of those imposing this odious affront to our sensibilities.

In other words, it's the local idiots we're talking about. :)
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#16 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 06:14 PM

It is NOT a Muslim ban, no matter how the Left tries to spin it.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#17 sierraleone

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 06:18 PM

The divide in America has not lessened:
Trump's heartland voters shrug off global uproar over immigration ban
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#18 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 06:20 PM

I just have to say...If any terrorist does wind up getting into the US because of these Protesters BS, then let's hope only those Protesters family and friends are the ones that get killed by the terrorist they let in.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#19 sierraleone

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 06:24 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 30 January 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

It is NOT a Muslim ban, no matter how the Left tries to spin it.

That is your main concern in this fiasco eh?

https://www.washingt...m=.6d2926dbfd17

Quote

Former New York mayor Rudy W. Giuliani said President Trump wanted a “Muslim ban” and requested he assemble a commission to show him “the right way to do it legally.”
Giuliani, an early Trump supporter who once had been rumored for a Cabinet position in the new administration, appeared on Fox News late Saturday night to describe how Trump's executive order temporarily banning refugees came together.
...
Trump also said he would give priority to Christian refugees over those of other religions, according to the Christian Broadcasting Network....

They may have dressed it up as something else, but that dressing can't quite hide the rotting stench beneath.

If it has to do with terrorism (and 9/11 is evoked right in the damned order), then why is Saudi Arabia not included?

Edited by sierraleone, 30 January 2017 - 09:19 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#20 gsmonks

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:21 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 30 January 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

It is NOT a Muslim ban, no matter how the Left tries to spin it.

That's a lie and you know it. It's not a matter of spin. It's a matter of actuality. Muslims- banned. Christians- come on in. Plus the many, many times the man-baby stated that he was, in fact, going to ban Muslims.

Methinks the part of your brain that comprehends stuff has either gone rotten, or else has been corrupted with falseness.

Why do you like lies so much? Do you lie so that people won't know the truth about you? Do people like you better if you disguise your Hate with lies? Is that how you see it?
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.



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