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Health care, repeal/replacement Republican legislation


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#21 sierraleone

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 09:25 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 March 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm also rejoicing. Obamacare is squarely OWNED by Democrats, so when it does implode, when premiums increase past the 200 or 300% increase mark, when the last health care provider leaves the plan, and people find they have NO coverage...the Democrats, and those Republicans in the Freedom Cacus, are going to have to answer for that.

For those looking for someone to beat Trump...Congrats, you managed to beat him on the healthcare bill...Now you own that. And when Obamacare does implode, you'll own that also.

So are you okay with Trump helping it implode? Because he wrote an executive order to that effect, to do everything within the maximum extension of the law. So, if it does implode, how can we be sure it was completely, 100%, democrat's fault?

You seem so sure you are right. No skin off my nose, I got socialized single-payer health care. Those aren't taboo words where I live.

Quote

On to taxes and building the wall.

Have you seen his proposed budget?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#22 sierraleone

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 10:02 PM

Lots of humorous gold nuggets regarding the failed repeal of ACA in this Reuters article:

Quote

"We learned a lot about loyalty. We learned a lot about the vote-getting process," Trump told reporters at the White House, although he sought to shift the blame to the Democrats even though his party controls the White House, the House and the Senate.
...
"We were just probably anywhere from 10 to 15 votes short," Trump said. "With no Democrat support we couldn't quite get there."

Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer said the bill failed "because of two traits that have plagued the Trump presidency since he took office: incompetence and broken promises."
​…
"I will not sugarcoat this. This is a disappointing day for us. Doing big things is hard," Ryan said at a news conference, adding that his fellow Republicans are experiencing what he called "growing pains" transitioning from an opposition party to a governing party.
...
Trump said he would be "totally open" to working with Democrats on healthcare "when they all become civilized."

Republican Representative Dana Rohrabacher said before the bill was pulled that voting it down would be "neutering Trump" while empowering his opponents.

"You don't cut the balls off a bull and then expect that he can go out and get the job done," Rohrabacher told Reuters. "This will emasculate Trump and we can't do that. ... If we bring this down now, Trump will have lost all of his leverage to pass whatever bill it is, whether it's the tax bill or whatever reforms that he wants."

Representative Joe Barton of Texas, when asked why his fellow Republicans were so united over the past seven years to dump Obamacare only to fall apart when they actually do something about it, said, "Sometimes you're playing fantasy football and sometimes you’re in the real game."

Stop it! My ribs hurt!

Luckily, with ACA around for the foreseeable future (per Paul Ryan in a quote I didn't share), any Americans who's ribs hurt from reading this article can still get it checked out!

Edited by sierraleone, 24 March 2017 - 10:02 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#23 gsmonks

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 01:52 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 March 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm also rejoicing. Obamacare is squarely OWNED by Democrats, so when it does implode, when premiums increase past the 200 or 300% increase mark, when the last health care provider leaves the plan, and people find they have NO coverage...the Democrats, and those Republicans in the Freedom Cacus, are going to have to answer for that.

For those looking for someone to beat Trump...Congrats, you managed to beat him on the healthcare bill...Now you own that. And when Obamacare does implode, you'll own that also.

I'm really glad President Trump is washing his hands, until Obamacare dies. These career politicians were probably expecting the President to try again, essentially begging them. F that sh*t. They had their chance to repeal and replace, they choked on it, now they own it.

On to taxes and building the wall.

Yeah . . . no. The ACA was a bi-partisan product (or were you asleep during all those drag-your-heels years?). And your Repellicans fought average Americans having health care coverage every step of the way, so if it's unaffordable, the Repellicans own that, not the Democruds.

Why do you continue to regurgitate Trump's inane rectal spew?

What caused you to be so full of masochistic shadenfreude?

Edited by gsmonks, 25 March 2017 - 01:53 AM.

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#24 Elara

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:39 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 March 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm also rejoicing. Obamacare is squarely OWNED by Democrats, so when it does implode, when premiums increase past the 200 or 300% increase mark, when the last health care provider leaves the plan, and people find they have NO coverage...the Democrats, and those Republicans in the Freedom Cacus, are going to have to answer for that.

For those looking for someone to beat Trump...Congrats, you managed to beat him on the healthcare bill...Now you own that. And when Obamacare does implode, you'll own that also.

I'm really glad President Trump is washing his hands, until Obamacare dies. These career politicians were probably expecting the President to try again, essentially begging them. F that sh*t. They had their chance to repeal and replace, they choked on it, now they own it.

On to taxes and building the wall.

So... the Democrats did some kind of mind meld with the Republicans who have the majority, and forced them to not pass the new heath care bill? The Democrats terrified your big man, 45? I thought he never lost?

As for the ACA, again, most people agree it has issues, but that is normal with most beginnings. As the saying goes: "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water." Perhaps the Republicans realized that it would be stupid to just trash the groundwork. And you have a problem with that?

I happen to have a problem with people who say stupid stuff like this:

Quote

In an interview with a reporter for Talking Points Memo on Thursday, Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas was asked about potential changes in the health care bill. He said: "I wouldn't want to lose my mammograms."

Being in charge of my health care. I honestly don't care that he apologized, because that doesn't change the truth in how he thinks. That "joke" is very telling.
You want to see the health of the people go bad because you believe that 45's plan is better, never mind the things he has said about women, never mind people like Sen. Roberts, never mind that the House Freedom Caucus would like to undo the ACA’s essential health benefits, including emergency-room visits, hospital stays, mental health, maternity, preventive care, prescription drug coverage, and more. Heck, never mind that the House Freedom Caucus appears to be all white men, deciding the health plan for everyone. Because men have done so well with women's healthcare. Oh, right. They haven't, but we should trust them to do what's right for women because: "I wouldn't want to lose my mammograms."

Oh, and that wall you mention? Who do you think is going to pay for that? Mexico? If you believe that, I have some swampland in Florida I can sell you. :)
El
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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

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#25 sierraleone

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 04:20 AM

I don't believe or follow all the moaning and groaning about how Trump is going to loose leverage when it comes to taxes…. The Republicans control the house, and the senate. (At least the senate for anything not requiring a 60:40 vote count for a win).

Trump/Republicans partly lost the health care battle because it wasn't conservative (read: draconian) enough, and partly because of the Koch brothers.

The Koch brothers communicated to the Freedom caucus (the Republicans that would be happy just repealing ACA without a replace), with both a carrot and a stick. Carrot: you hold out for full ACA repeal, or at least much more draconian "replacement", and we'll bank-roll and fund your next election. Stick: you vote for what is current on the table, and we won't just *not* fund your next election, we'll fund your opponent (either in the primary and/or the general?).

Even if the freedom caucus might have caved for other reasons of political calculus to Trump's "deal-making", they all care about being re-elected. That is why Trump tried to go hardline, and came up with the ultimatum, vote now or you won't get a chance to vote later. Trying to stick the inability to repeal it around their neck. If he forces them to a vote and they vote "no" on repeal/replace, doesn't matter if it is not draconian enough or not, they will be on record not voting for repeal, which is what they ran on for 8 years. If the vote is not held due to them it they still don't get what they want, they aren't getting a do-over in the near future (and neither are the Koch brothers, it was as much as message to them I am sure too).


However, health care reform is a very different animal than changing the tax-system to benefit the rich. Repealing the ACA brought out protestors/activists/people just trying to stay alive, who happened to be constituents. And it caused a split in the Republican party between the moderates and the right-wing.

Do we think tax-legislation to benefit the rich/their donors is going to split the Republican party? Ha! Trump may have issues with getting to a consensus on his budget, or building the wall, but not with reducing taxes for the rich….
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#26 yadda yadda

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

What saddens me is that there are undoubtedly people out there who eagerly await whatever inanity is squeezed out of 45's orifice, swallow it whole, and then regurgitate it for public view. 45 pronounces from on high that Democrats now own ObamaCare and its imminent spectacular explosion because his plan had no Democrat support and evidently Republicans could not raise enough dead or undocumented immigrant House Representives to swing the vote, and his followers eat that up with a spoon. The sort of drooling idiots that continue to support and parrot this president will contentedly march off a cliff, laughing out loud and Sieg Heiling downward to their destruction like lemmings playing follow the leader.

45 tweets out. "What, me worry?" like Alfred E. Neuman of Mad Magazine fame about ObamaCare's expected demise. Sure thing. Why should he worry about our health care system going down the tubes and people dying? It's not like he doesn't have excellent health care. And if a few million poor and elderly people die because of his and Paul Ryan's greed and incompetence, it's considered a wash. Even if half of them are Republican voters they're all still considered deadbeat leeches, draining resources that could instead be filling corporate coffers, and 45's and Ryan's accounts and portfolios.

And as far as ObamaCare exploding/imploding,  you can bet your bottom health care premium dollar that 45 and the GOP will continue their past and ongoing campaign to sabotage and weaken it at every turn. They'll do whatever is necessary to turn that imaginary rhetorical "death spiral" into reality. And why not? Their Republican supporters, the slightly healthier ones still standing after their health care line is severed will be mindlessly chanting their 45 inspired mantra " OWNED by the Democrats!, OWNED by the Democrats!" until they slip into their diabetic comas.

Edited by yadda yadda, 25 March 2017 - 03:48 PM.


#27 yadda yadda

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:15 PM

What's so ironic and soul satisfyingly funny to me is the self-described world's greatest deal maker telling the Freedom Caucus neanderthals that it was make or break, put up or shut up time and that a vote was going to be taken on Friday. I guess this was supposed to scare doubtful panicky Republicans into doing the right thing by supporting this travesty, so they wouldn't go on record as disloyal to the cause? Oooooh, the Closer-Great-Negotiator-in-Chief is giving us an ultimatum!

So what happened? The Great Negotiator was stymied, his empty threat ignored, and 45 and Ryan had to ignominiously tuck their tails between their legs and pull the bill. That way 45 could bluster while sniveling afterward as he sulked and gave us the old fish story about the one that got away. So, so close! If not for those lousy Democrats who wouldn't help convince our Republican majority to enact our garbage. It's on them now! My incredible ignorance of and lack of curiosity about the issue and inherent laziness to perform due diligence as to any research....well that's Ryan's fault. He knows that's just how I am and should've done a better job of telling me what to do and say. After all, health care is simple. It's all in the plan. What's the plan? Here's the plan. It's a great plan! In fact it was the best laid plan...oops.

Maybe we can expect 45 to get somebody to ghost write a book for him soon on all his bigly accomplishments, objectively abject failures like his Muslim ban and health care bill but polished up, re-imaged and bragged about in the 45 tradition. Of course it'll likely be written from a federal max security jail cell or from Moscow if the US can work out a prisoner swap of our Traitor-in-Chief for a captured CIA agent or a dissident/mole in Putin's government, before Vlad gets around to having them murdered in the street or pushed out of a window. Strong leader!

Edited by yadda yadda, 25 March 2017 - 03:43 PM.


#28 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 09:23 PM

I also don't understand the logic in the GOP pulling the vote. They should've had the vote, made those republicans who vote "No" own Obamacare, along with the Democrats.

As for those who are happy that Obamacare is here to stay...We'll see how happy they are when their premiums increase past the 200 and 300%, we'll see how happy they are then. While the Democrats own Obamacare (And I say they own it because Democrats are the ones that made it law, not republicans). The Democrats own Obamacare, that is pure FACT. However, the GOP had 7 years to come up with a viable alternative to Obamacare, and they came up with squat. Ryan failed in getting the support needed, that is also FACT.

As for those Republicans who opposed the GOP plan, perhaps what's going to be needed is for President Trump to visit their home congressional districts, and not do any photo ops with them. Instead have President Trump shake hands, do photo ops, with a conservative D.A. he likes, and endorse that D.A. as a primary challenge to the Congress member who opposed him. If president Trump does this to 5 or 6 of those Republican members of Congress who opposed him, then perhaps the others will get the message? Oppose President Trump and their chances of re election drop drastically.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#29 gsmonks

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 12:54 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 25 March 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

A) As for those who are happy that Obamacare is here to stay...We'll see how happy they are when their premiums increase past the 200 and 300%, we'll see how happy they are then. B) While the Democrats own Obamacare (And I say they own it because Democrats are the ones that made it law, not republicans).

A) You seem to be living in your own reality. The only way rates could get that high is by way of corrupt gerrymandering.

B) The Republicans "own" the ACA every bit as much as the Democrats. It was a bi-partisan effort. That is a fact. Signing it into law was a bi-partisan process. That is a fact.

Read this until it sinks into your pea brain:

"Despite the partisan vote on the bill, the fact is that the Affordable Care Act was a product of exhaustive bipartisan compromise. Indeed, some of the most important provisions in the bill were actually GOP ideas:"

http://www.americasf...e-law-was-made/

the fact is that the Affordable Care Act was a product of exhaustive bipartisan compromise

the fact is that the Affordable Care Act was a product of exhaustive bipartisan compromise

the fact is that the Affordable Care Act was a product of exhaustive bipartisan compromise

the fact is that the Affordable Care Act was a product of exhaustive bipartisan compromise

Get it? Is any of thing getting through to you?

the fact is that the Affordable Care Act was a product of exhaustive bipartisan compromise

the fact is that the Affordable Care Act was a product of exhaustive bipartisan compromise

the fact is that the Affordable Care Act was a product of exhaustive bipartisan compromise

Is there any part of that sentence you don't understand?
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#30 gsmonks

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 06:22 AM

An odd fact about Trump and his cabal of deplorables: if you turn off your television set, pull your head out of your arse, and stick it outside, Trump and his ditherings vanishes like it had never been.

In fact, were it not for televisions, radios, newspaper, and computers, we wouldn't be aware of the existence of Trump and his gaggle of deplorables at all, at all, at all.

Add to that Trump's ineptitude and the deplorables' incompetence and ineffectiveness, and utter lack of substance, one could easily come to the conclusion that their existence is nothing more or less than a media confabulation.

If they ceased to exist at this very moment, life would go on as though they had never been.

What does that tell you?
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#31 yadda yadda

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 08:08 AM

View Postgsmonks, on 26 March 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

An odd fact about Trump and his cabal of deplorables: if you turn off your television set, pull your head out of your arse, and stick it outside, Trump and his ditherings vanishes like it had never been.

In fact, were it not for televisions, radios, newspaper, and computers, we wouldn't be aware of the existence of Trump and his gaggle of deplorables at all, at all, at all.

Add to that Trump's ineptitude and the deplorables' incompetence and ineffectiveness, and utter lack of substance, one could easily come to the conclusion that their existence is nothing more or less than a media confabulation.

If they ceased to exist at this very moment, life would go on as though they had never been.

What does that tell you?

Which are we supposed to stick outside the door...the head or the arse? One activity is socially acceptable. The latter bordering upon public indecency if the moon is out.

#32 sierraleone

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 08:36 AM

Here is a Reuters article on "How Republicans can hobble Obamacare even without repeal", which I had touched on in an earlier post.

Quote

The Trump administration has already begun using its regulatory authority to water down less prominent aspects of the 2010 healthcare law.

Earlier this week, newly confirmed Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price stalled the rollout of mandatory Medicare payment reform programs for heart attack treatment, bypass surgery and joint replacements finalized by the Obama administration in December.

When I first read this, I read it as they were *not* paying for these procedures, which would be horrifying. Instead, which they mean is that Obama had come up with a reform payment program and they are stalling that program. And generally reform is meant to be an improvement….

Quote

Hospitals and physician groups have been counting on support from Medicare - the federal insurance program for the elderly and disabled - to continue driving payment reform policies built into Obamacare that reward doctors and hospitals for providing high quality care at a lower cost.

Wow, that sounds horrible doesn't it? /sarcasm
So, why would this kind of reform be necessary? Which appears intended to encourage rewarding higher quality/lower cost care?

Quote

Health costs have soared thanks in part to the traditional way doctors and hospitals get paid, namely by receiving a fee for each service they provide. So the more advanced imaging tests a doctor orders or pricey procedures they perform, the more money he or she makes, regardless of whether the patient's health improves.

Alternative payment models are designed to remove incentives that reward overtreatment of patients. Private insurers are on board, with Aetna Inc, Anthem Inc, UnitedHealth Group and most Blue Cross insurers announcing plans to shift half of their reimbursement to alternative payment models to control costs.

Without the backing of Medicare, the biggest payer in the U.S. healthcare system which Price now oversees, the nascent payment reform movement could lose momentum, sidelining a transformation many experts believe is vital to reining in runaway U.S. healthcare spending.
​…
"It seems that the Trump Administration now faces a choice whether to actively undermine the ACA or reshape it administratively," Larry Levitt, senior vice president at Kaiser Family Foundation, wrote on Twitter.

"The ACA marketplaces weren't collapsing, but they could be made to collapse through administrative actions," he added.

David Cutler, the Harvard health economist who helped the Obama Administration shape the ACA, said Price could do all sorts of things to undermine the law.

"If he wants to blow it up, he can," Cutler said in an email. But if they do, he added, "they alone will own the failure."



Oh, and it appears Trump supporters don't blame him for the health-don't-care failure. Which, it certainly wasn't all up to Trump, but you read about how this failed, and he does deserve part of the blame. He did not know any policy details when he was trying to convince the Freedom caucus to vote on it, and called policy details "the small sh*t", to a bunch of people who are deeply involved with policy and policy discussion. Admit it Trump supporters, the famous deal-making couldn't close the deal and didn't even do a good job of trying with any sort of competency. Another Reuters article, this one on these unfailing Trump supports.

Quote

The day after the flaming out of U.S. President Donald Trump's first major legislative initiative, his supporters across America were lashing out - at conservatives, at Democrats, at leaders of his Republican Party in Congress.

Only Trump himself was spared their wrath.
...

"Being a businessman, he'll not take 'no' for an answer," said Tony Nappi, a 71-year-old from Trinity, Florida, one of the many disappointed Republicans on his weekend softball team. "He'll get the job done."

Support for Trump appeared unflagging, from the playing fields of a Republican stronghold in central Florida to the small town diners of North Carolina, the suburbs of Arkansas and the streets of working-class Staten Island in New York City.


I feel like they just must identify with Trump because they feel like their a kin-ship with both of their perceived underdog status, and things like this just reinforce Trump's, and if he wins they'll still cheer and rally because he has beaten the top-dogs. And I have to ask, do they know what is in the ACA, and what is in Trump/Ryan-don't-care?

This quote had me chuckling though, someone at least party gets it, but doesn't get how horribly this reflects on Trump's life experience:

Quote

"You can't just go and tell people what to do like he's used to doing," said Hahne, 74. "Trump's got to learn a lot."

I guess she has never heard the saying you can't teach old dogs new tricks? I think Trump voters were expecting the opposite, that this old dog would teach the establishment new tricks…. I think people can learn new skills at any stage of life, but not *any* skill, to the kind of fluency one needs to run the free world….

Edited by sierraleone, 26 March 2017 - 08:39 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#33 yadda yadda

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 11:45 AM

Sierraleone, the 45 supporters who can't accept the truth of their messiah's complete incompetence and failure on this first major effort on health care are incapable of doing so because their very own identities and foundations of self esteem are now caught up and intertwined with this con man. His childish petulance or indigestion grumpiness become their passions and rallying cries. Lock her up! Build the wall! Blame the judges! Obama wiretapped me! Democrats own it! It gives these people a sense of purpose and involvement. A connection to power, a wind beneath their wings.

One can only imagine the emotional devastation to these people, the pounding to their moorings of faith and resolve when the FBI delivers their report showing how deeply 45 and his most trusted aides were hooked up to the Russian effort to rig our presidential election. I only know how jubilant I'll be to see these traitorous jokers perp-walked off to prison. I can only imagine the despair and psychological deflation in those sad deluded willing victims of the con who hold the so-called president in high regard. LOL!

#34 sierraleone

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 12:37 PM

View Postyadda yadda, on 26 March 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Sierraleone, the 45 supporters who can't accept the truth of their messiah's complete incompetence and failure on this first major effort on health care are incapable of doing so because their very own identities and foundations of self esteem are now caught up and intertwined with this con man. His childish petulance or indigestion grumpiness become their passions and rallying cries. Lock her up! Build the wall! Blame the judges! Obama wiretapped me! Democrats own it! It gives these people a sense of purpose and involvement. A connection to power, a wind beneath their wings.

One can only imagine the emotional devastation to these people, the pounding to their moorings of faith and resolve when the FBI delivers their report showing how deeply 45 and his most trusted aides were hooked up to the Russian effort to rig our presidential election. I only know how jubilant I'll be to see these traitorous jokers perp-walked off to prison. I can only imagine the despair and psychological deflation in those sad deluded willing victims of the con who hold the so-called president in high regard. LOL!

Some of them won't feel devastation realizing they were wrong, but devastation that Trump was brought down. Some will retreat into conspiracy theories, or blaming the elites/establishment/liberals/etc somehow, and make Trump blameless in their minds, because that is the only way that they also can remain blameless, which doesn't just protect their psyches but also their values/worldview.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#35 yadda yadda

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 01:18 PM

Yes, to them he'll be a martyr. They'll expect that his prison cell door will be rolled back after three days and he will have ascended.  ;)

#36 gsmonks

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 06:35 PM

Too funny!

So many of Trump's supporters show themselves to be incredibly stupid people when interviewed that that in itself is the apparent cause of their loyalty. If a person is dogmatic and stupid, there's not much you can do with them, except send them off to war en masse to thin their numbers.

The problem this creates is that A) these dufuses can vote, and B) they exist in large numbers. Get enough of them together, get them voting for someone like Trump, and bad things happen.

This has been noted as the Achilles' Heel of Democracy since its invention some 2400 years ago. "Rule by rabble" they called it back then. The US tried to remedy this problem by way of the Electoral College, and we all know how that worked out this time around.

The reason only landowners could vote was because landowners tended to be better educated, those owning no land also having zero access to education.

It's a bitter pill to swallow that elitism keeps the stupid masses in check. Orwell said "hope lies in the proletariat", but the proletariat's collective ignorance negates any such hope.
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#37 sierraleone

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 06:53 PM

View Postgsmonks, on 26 March 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

Too funny!

So many of Trump's supporters show themselves to be incredibly stupid people when interviewed that that in itself is the apparent cause of their loyalty. If a person is dogmatic and stupid, there's not much you can do with them, except send them off to war en masse to thin their numbers.

Not that I'm thinking we should do so, but I am curious… How do you think TPTB can ensure that those sent off to war are disproportionately the "dogmatic and stupid" ones? Or does that not matter because you think those are the ones more likely to die in war??? Or that "dogmatic and stupid" people will be less so after surviving a gruelling war experience???

View Postgsmonks, on 26 March 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

This has been noted as the Achilles' Heel of Democracy since its invention some 2400 years ago. "Rule by rabble" they called it back then. The US tried to remedy this problem by way of the Electoral College, and we all know how that worked out this time around.

The reason only landowners could vote was because landowners tended to be better educated, those owning no land also having zero access to education.

It's a bitter pill to swallow that elitism keeps the stupid masses in check. Orwell said "hope lies in the proletariat", but the proletariat's collective ignorance negates any such hope.

Landowners also are more likely to share interests with other elites…. While education is swell there are other problems with the worldview of monied elites that education can not often shake off. Though they probably at least recognized, via self-interest, the need to keep the "rabble" in check and keep them nominally co-operating with the arrangement in their social-contract. The elites today are so far removed from the "rabble" they think they have nothing to fear it seems.

Edited by sierraleone, 26 March 2017 - 07:37 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#38 sierraleone

sierraleone

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:27 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 March 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm also rejoicing. Obamacare is squarely OWNED by Democrats, so when it does implode, when premiums increase past the 200 or 300% increase mark, when the last health care provider leaves the plan, and people find they have NO coverage...the Democrats, and those Republicans in the Freedom Cacus, are going to have to answer for that.

For those looking for someone to beat Trump...Congrats, you managed to beat him on the healthcare bill...Now you own that. And when Obamacare does implode, you'll own that also.

I'm really glad President Trump is washing his hands, until Obamacare dies. These career politicians were probably expecting the President to try again, essentially begging them. F that sh*t. They had their chance to repeal and replace, they choked on it, now they own it.

On to taxes and building the wall.

Doesn't that mean the Democrats also own the lives saved under the ACA/Obamacare? Obamacare has been around 7 years, and people who did not have access to affordable comprehensive health care (or at least much less so than now) now do, which has saved the lives (and health) of many.

So, to say that once Obamacare fails, this is the Democrats fault that people start dying (going back to how it was before the ACA/Obamacare), then isn't it also to be credited to them that the lives (and health) of so many have been saved?

Either one have to make up some twisted logic that that doesn't matter, because those people saved by ACA/Obamacare either: a) should not have been saved/cured, b) should not have been saved/cured by any government health care, c) should not have been saved/cured by imperfect government health care (note, all health care is imperfect, private or public), d) should have been saved/cured by profit-driven free-market health care (which we know wouldn't have happened, those that could be saved by that system already were, but it left many people with preventable health conditions to deteriorate and/or die), e) should have been saved/cured by profit-driven health care market fixed/patched/tinkered somehow by government regulation/interference (isn't that what the ACA/Obamacare is?).

So, now that we have this system in place, *if* it is going to implode on its own…. What does: a) destroying it (i.e. repeal without replace), b) worsening it (i.e. repeal and replace with the recently pulled Trump/Ryan-don't-care bill), c) abandoning/neglecting it as if an infant in the woods left to die (i.e. the current plan to let it implode on its own)….. What does any of these options do? And who owns it? I mean, if ACA/Obamacare took 50 years to implode, would it still be the democrat's fault?

So, until 2010, the U.S. largely had profit-driven health care. Due to various movements and compassion in the past there was a very basic social safety net for the very very poor or those without access to employer-health-care-plans (medicaid for the very poor, medicare for those over 65, emergency rooms could not turn people away). But this left a whole swath of people who couldn't access affordable comprehensive health care. That state of affairs put some people into debt to get healthcare, leading many people to bankruptcy, just to live. Many others who couldn't access credit couldn't even do that, and just succumbed to preventable health issues.

I'd say democrats and republicans were responsible for that state of affairs. Though democrats did try to do healthcare reform once before, in 1993. But considering at the time the Democrats were not united in passing it (and I do not know that plan's pros/cons), yes, both parties own the state of affairs.

In the lead up to the 2010 ACA/Obamacare vote both Democrats and Republicans contributed to the legislation. But the Republicans voted no on the legislation. So Democrats get a lot more credit for the lives (and healths) saved from 2010 to present day, by the ACA/Obamacare.

If it needs improvement/changes to ensure it doesn't implode and kill people, it is incumbent on the parties in power in the House, the Senate, and the Presidency, to do so, to ensure lives continue to be saved and the U.S. does not revert to how things were before 2010. Oh, I meant party, as there is only one holding the House/Senate/Presidency at the moment.

If ACA/Obamacare is better than what the U.S. had before, and is saving lives, but needs saving/fixing itself, why wouldn't it be the Republicans fault if they didn't do something to save/fix it when they are in the position to do so? OR, at the very least, why do the Democrats not get credit for saving the lives saved because the ACA/Obamacare is saving more lives than under the previous system?

Edited by sierraleone, 26 March 2017 - 08:24 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#39 gsmonks

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 02:33 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 26 March 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Not that I'm thinking we should do so, but I am curious… How do you think TPTB can ensure that those sent off to war are disproportionately the "dogmatic and stupid" ones? Or does that not matter because you think those are the ones more likely to die in war??? Or that "dogmatic and stupid" people will be less so after surviving a gruelling war experience???

It's mainly stupid young men who go in for soldiering. Young men are allegedly equipped with a brain when they enter this world, but it is a sat fact that they almost have a corner on stupid. See some vandalism? Almost always young guys at fault. See a spectacular vehicular smash-up? Young guys. See someone being arrested for being drunk, disorderly and mouthy? Usually a young guy. Young guys may be born with a brain, but it doesn't kick in until they turn 25 or so.

People who get sucked into nonsense like religion and soldiering are most often young and stupid. Your critical-thinking bone isn't working properly if you're gung-ho about "serving your country". The rate of suicide of returning soldiers remains at around 50%, if memory serves. The inane, vacuous, patriotic dribblings of young, stupid people eventually become the suffering of PTSD and personal isolation, followed by a 50% chance of suicide, not  to mention terminal bitterness, disillusionment, self-hatred, all the goodies that come with a harsh dose of reality.

Quote

Landowners also are more likely to share interests with other elites…. While education is swell there are other problems with the worldview of monied elites that education can not often shake off. Though they probably at least recognized, via self-interest, the need to keep the "rabble" in check and keep them nominally co-operating with the arrangement in their social-contract. The elites today are so far removed from the "rabble" they think they have nothing to fear it seems.

Landowners are numerically your typical homeowner having a basic education of some sort. The monied elite is the 1%, which is a whole other animal.

The monied elite are such a statistically small percentage of the population that they barely register as an entity. They're also a self-involved bunch, out of touch with reality, and if this sounds familiar, it refers to your typical Conservative politician these days. Not that specimens like the Clintons differ in any meaningful way.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#40 yadda yadda

yadda yadda
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Posted 27 March 2017 - 01:11 PM

What a difference a weekend makes, evidently. From Dems OWN ObamaCare and will OWN its implosion/ explosion to 45's Spicey mouthpiece saying this morning that the Failingest-Ever-Negotiator-in-Chief is now "absolutely serious" about working with Democrats in crafting health care solutions. Looks like old Dolt 45 wants a piece of that ownership after all. Because Dem homies don't play repeal.

Must be tough and tongue twisting for those who parrot this president's words and shadow his whimsy to stop and start and reverse course so abruptly. Whoever ends up OWNING the ACA better hope it has chiropractic benefits for all those stiff red necks thrown out of joint.  ;)


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