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Trump Fires Director Comey


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#21 sierraleone

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 08:50 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 10 May 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Hell, just a few months ago the Democrats were calling for Comey to either be fired or resign. Now that he is fired, the Democrats flip flop and are outraged. The back to back showing of those clips, where a few months ago they want Comey gone, and now where it's Trump being a tyrant, showcase their hypocrisy perfectly. In fact, I'm actually starting to wonder if that is why Trump did it the way he did, so the Democrats would flip flop and their hypocrisy would be on stage for all the world to see? Not that that would be a good reason for firing someone.

It is hypocritical to criticize Comey's handling of Clinton's email case, and to also criticize Trump's possibly self-serving decision to fire someone who is investigating Trump's campaign/associates? One can't possibly do both without being hypocritical?

Where as Trump praised Comey his handling of the Clinton email case, and said Comey had his full confidence up to a week ago, and now he is using Comey's handling of the Clinton email case as pretext for firing him?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#22 gsmonks

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 12:05 AM

Comey should have been fired, maybe charged with gerrymandering, for interfering with Clinton during the election.

As to Comey's being fired, at this time and during the investigation, this could be the pebble tossed into the still pond that signals the beginning of the end for Adolph Twitler.
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#23 Omega

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 08:08 AM

I think a fair line to draw would be that Comey should have been fired, but that Trump firing him still constitutes obstruction of justice.

#24 sierraleone

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 09:43 AM

I heard it put pretty much perfectly: Trump is using the tools of democracy in bad faith.

I think some people are sick of some of what has become norms in democracy and politics, so they are okay with this, with throwing all norms to the wind, and also using the tools of democracy against it. Yes, corruption (i.e. money in politics) is bad, and I'd say pretty normalized now. However, there is a throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bath-water feel to how some Trump supporters feel about government.

However, things like the balance of the complete independence of the FBI with no check on its power versus it being servile tool of the Executive Branch….. Neither of those have good outcomes, but respecting that a balance is needed can't be legislated (nor can the balance be legislated). So the norms here are about institutional culture (and the individual people who make up these institutions) as opposed to codified rules.

I think it is possible the worst thing about Comey to Trump, is that Comey was more independent than Trump would like (especially as the Trump/associates-Russian investigation is on-going).. That independence served Trump in the campaign (attacking Hillary), but it doesn't serve him as President. Trump is a man not used to having independent employees, much less ones who could investigate and get him reprimanded or fired.

I read reporting that Trump and his administration wanted to know what Comey would say in his testimony that he gave to the Senate recently, regarding Comey's handling of the private email server scandal, and that Comey refused to do so. It is common curtesy to provide preview of congressional testimony to superiors, a norm, one might say, that Comey thwarted. Comey didn't do the common curtesy or providing it (without asking?), then Trump's administration asked, then Comey refused. His refusal was taken as insubordination. Reporting is also saying Trump apparently also expected explicit support from Comey for his claim that Obama was spying on him, and the fact that he didn't/wouldn't infuriated Trump. The man just can't handled being told no.

Edited by sierraleone, 11 May 2017 - 11:01 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#25 yadda yadda

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 11:49 AM

View PostOmega, on 10 May 2017 - 08:27 PM, said:

The 9th circuit does not have a 95% overturn rate. It has a 95% overturn rate of those appeals the USSC accepts. That is an entirely different statement.

The original EO that Yates and the 9th circuit blocked due to its lack of constitutional validity will never be considered, accepted, or overturned by the USSC since president 45 rescinded it in consideration of its poor language, light legal content, and religious discrimination overtones. His administration subsequently proclaimed a second sequel EO which has also been blocked.

#26 sierraleone

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:18 PM

Either the White House staff has to admit they have no idea what is going on, or someone (or many ones) are lying.
Either way, the White House should loose any credibility they previously were perceived to have, with any body.

Trump's interview with Lester Holt blows apart all of their explanations surrounding the Comey firing. Though it is not like before this interview their recent statements fit well with other statements/facts already on record….

Edited by sierraleone, 11 May 2017 - 06:47 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#27 gsmonks

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 05:58 PM

Twitler expects loyalty from political bodies that are supposed to be impartial. He also expects them to do his bidding. Loyalty and doing a leader's bidding are characteristics of Fascism, not Democracy.

The 'Merican people and the Repellicans have taken their stupid pills when it comes to reigning in Twitler. Both are giving him far too much latitude in his Fascist leanings and doings. If they don't smarten up, there is going to come a point when the machinery of Democracy won't have the power to stop this swing towards Fascism. As was said during the rise of Fascism and Nazism in the 1930's, both came about because too many people did nothing to stop them, until it was too late.
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#28 sierraleone

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:19 PM

So, Mike Pence had repeated the lie that the clueless White House Press staffers repeated, that Trump fired Comey on the advice of his AG, and DAG.

But, was Mike Pence lied to (or guessing) like the WH Press staffers? What if he wasn't guessing, but he was repeating a lie?

If Mike Pence was unknowingly repeating a lie that he was fairly confident was the truth…. Anyone remember what happened to the last known person who purportedly put Pence in that kind of position?

The alternative is that Mike Pence was knowingly repeating a lie….

Was he lied to, or did he lie?

Incompetent, or malicious… or both, or alternating between them.

ETA: It may make one wonder that if Mike knowingly lied now, did he knowingly repeat Flynn's lie then? And that situation was used as a pre-text to fire Flynn? Trump maintains Flynn did nothing wrong, and still gives Flynn praise…. Was it just untenable to keep Flynn around after the leak that showed Flynn lied?

Edited by sierraleone, 11 May 2017 - 06:49 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#29 yadda yadda

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:37 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 11 May 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

So, Mike Pence had repeated the lie that the clueless White House Press staffers repeated, that Trump fired Comey on the advice of his AG & DAG.

But, was Mike Pence lied to (or guessing) like the WH Press staffers? What if he wasn't guessing, but he was repeating a lie?

If Mike Pence was unknowingly repeating a lie that he was fairly confident was the truth…. Anyone remember what happened to the last known person who purportedly put Pence in that kind of position?

The alternative is that Mike Pence was knowingly repeating a lie….

Was he lied to, or did he lie?

Incompetent, or malicious… or both, or alternating between them.

It's kind of a mind blowing conundrum. Who lied first, the Christian or the Fake? Or if you put them both in a large box with Schrödinger's cat, could they both still lie if they were dead? Or if they were in a forest and one lied and then couldn't tell if it was his lie, the other lying, an echo of his own lie, or the sound of a tree falling and then lying on the forest loam, would anyone hear it if it wasn't on cable news?

#30 sierraleone

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:52 PM

Here is what this Washington Post article is saying regarding Mike Pence here:

Quote

Then there is Vice President Pence, sent up to the Hill to tell the false story that this was all Rosenstein’s idea. You would think that after Michael T. Flynn lied to him, Pence would have learned not to vouch for White House colleagues, but he is apparently the go-to person for lying. Is he so passive that he does not bother to determine for himself what the facts are — or so mendacious that he relishes his role as dissembler? Republicans who thought Pence would bring stability, experience or rectitude to the White House must be sorely disappointed. If Trump leaves office in 2020 — or before — Pence will not be seen as an innocent, conscientious bystander. He’ll be part and parcel of a crew of dishonest schemers whose contempt for the truth is unparalleled, at least since the Nixon White House.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#31 sierraleone

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 07:33 PM

View Postyadda yadda, on 11 May 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

It's kind of a mind blowing conundrum. Who lied first, the Christian or the Fake?

It isn't really surprising, when I think back to the VP Debate. He seemed very comfortable with obfuscation at the very least. I think he out righted lied, but I can't recall for sure. At the very least he did not want to be seen defending Trump's deplorable comments, but I think he crossed the line pretending/denying Trump didn't say the things Trump said.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#32 yadda yadda

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 09:04 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 11 May 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

View Postyadda yadda, on 11 May 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

It's kind of a mind blowing conundrum. Who lied first, the Christian or the Fake?

It isn't really surprising, when I think back to the VP Debate. He seemed very comfortable with obfuscation at the very least. I think he out righted lied, but I can't recall for sure. At the very least he did not want to be seen defending Trump's deplorable comments, but I think he crossed the line pretending/denying Trump didn't say the things Trump said.

Pence is almost as much a liar as 45. The only difference is he lies when he feels it's needed, not every waking moment like the Prevaricator-in-Chief. But that makes him almost worse. 45 lies like a shark moving through water. He just needs to, it's his nature, and his history. And anyone with half a brain knows he's an inveterate liar. But Pence relying on his Man From Glad white-haired Christian calm and collected sober statesman image to lie straight through his teeth is even more chilling.

#33 sierraleone

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 09:25 PM

^ So, are we thinking Trump is being honest for once then? ;) With him saying he thought up the idea to fire Comey and was going to fire him no matter what his AG and DAG said? Maybe everyone else is being honest for once? Usually they are more together on keeping their stories straight ;)

I believe Trump, but I also think he can't stand to have people think that someone else is the decider, and/or is getting more attention than him (the comments justifying Comey's firing about Comey being a showboating grandstander is laughable and seems like projection initially. But I think it is jealousy of someone else stealing Trump's spotlight - in his own mind that is.).
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#34 yadda yadda

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 10:21 PM



View Postsierraleone, on 11 May 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

^ So, are we thinking Trump is being honest for once then? ;) With him saying he thought up the idea to fire Comey and was going to fire him no matter what his AG and DAG said? Maybe everyone else is being honest for once? Usually they are more together on keeping their stories straight ;)

I believe Trump, but I also think he can't stand to have people think that someone else is the decider, and/or is getting more attention than him (the comments justifying Comey's firing about Comey being a showboating grandstander is laughable and seems like projection initially. But I think it is jealousy of someone else stealing Trump's spotlight - in his own mind that is.).

I think Trump was honest about wanting to fire Comey, just being typically dishonest as to when and why. I think the initial strategy to switch the focus and credit to Rod Rosenstein was the first draft decided upon by Pence and Sessions to hopefully give 45 some plausibility of denial on motive by adopting Rosenstein's essay on Comey's bungling of the HRC e-mails. This was patently ridiculous as 45 was effusive in his praise of Comey for going after HRC. So as that unraveled and administration leaks exposed it as bullspit, and then Rosenstein objected to being put out as the tethered goat, I think 45 decided (very unwisely) to bare his soul to Lester Holt and cut the legs out from his spokesperson's stories. But Holt is smart and 45 is not so he gave up wayyyy too much information and inner emotion directed mini- confessions that will come back to burn him in the long run and establish some backbone in the short run in a few Republicans, enough to muddle up 45's/recused Sessions' plans for domination and distraction.

There are already reports coming out that refute 45's accounts about his dinner conversation with Comey. I can't wait to hear what Comey has to say about it, among other things, either in an Op-Ed, testimony before Congress, or even a tell-all in the National Enquirer. Because then 45 would take it seriously and know it was the God's truth.

But the word salad that Trump managed to spin and shoot that shows his true reason for firing Comey and laying out the case to be made for charges of "obstruction of justice" against him as laid out by Rachel,Maddow , was as follows...

45 ~ "I was going to fire Comey, uh, there's no good time to do it by the way...oh I was going to fire him regardless of recommendation. He (Rosenstein) made a recommendation, he's highly respected...very good guy, very smart guy. The Democrats like him, the Republicans like him, he made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation I was going to fire Comey...knowing there's no good time to do it. AND IN FACT WHEN I DECIDED TO JUST DO IT, I DECIDED TO MYSELF...I SAID YOU KNOW, THIS RUSSIA THING WITH TRUMP AND RUSSIA, IS A MADE UP STORY."

Edited by yadda yadda, 12 May 2017 - 07:17 AM.


#35 sierraleone

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 07:11 AM

View Postyadda yadda, on 11 May 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

45 ~ "I was going to fire Comey, uh, there's no good time to do it by the way...oh I was going to fire him regardless of recommendation. He (Rosenstein) made a recommendation, he's highly respected...very good guy, very smart guy. The Democrats like him, the Republicans like him, he made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation I was going to fire Comey...knowing there's no good time to do it. AND IN FACT WHEN I DECIDED TO JUST DO IT, I DECIDED TO MYSELF...I SAID YOU KNOW, THIS RUSSIA THING WITH TRUMP AND RUSSIA, IS A MADE UP STORY."

Nothing this man says surprised me, but I wanted to verify that quote before responding to it as if it is fact. So, here is the partial transcript of the interview on CNN. It is not searchable for key words, but the above quote is on the first page.

http://www.cnn.com/2...trump-nbc-news/

Now, if he was smart, and could admit he is not the best at everything, he'd say he communicated badly here…. And some people will believe that regardless of whether he says that or not, because communicator-in-chief he is definitely not. Back to this bit:

Quote

AND IN FACT WHEN I DECIDED TO JUST DO IT, I DECIDED TO MYSELF...I SAID YOU KNOW, THIS RUSSIA THING WITH TRUMP AND RUSSIA, IS A MADE UP STORY.

- THAT is when you decided Trump and Russia is a made-up story? That makes no sense.
(Though it would make total sense if some regular Americans were changing their beliefs this week….)

- Why would you "decide" that? Best interpretation, you mean that you decided/made up your mind that your belief is that the Trump campaign-Russia is a made-up story. Based on what information, if any, who knows….
(Campaign only, because unless you were working with the Russians and forgot, there isn't a damn way this makes plausible sense that you just made-up your mind on whether you were working with the Russians….)

- So, continuing on the last point… What relevance does your knowing, or deciding/making up your mind, on your beliefs on whether your campaign worked with/colluded with the Russians, have to do with this decision at all? If your belief is firm then why fire someone in the middle of that investigation? And no, Lester Holt had not asked about Russia before this quote (though it is a partial transcript, I'll concede perhaps it happened before the first page). So Trump brought this up this otherwise seemingly non-relevant point himself.

Either Tump is worried that his Presidency is threatened by this investigation (which, it could, even without implicating him), and/or what? He is obsessed with this investigation for other reasons? He later on says he supports the investigation, but really, what else could he say without looking like he was interfering?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#36 yadda yadda

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 07:49 AM

Sierraleone, I don't know how to post or cut and paste transcripts. That is why I listened to this part of his interview and painstakingly transcribed it myself, writing it down in 5 or 6 word increments on paper, and then posting it. The all caps portion was to me, and Rachel Maddow, the portion where he admitted that the Russia-Trump connection being made up was the light bulb going off that illuminated his decision to fire Comey. And that suggests a path to demonstrable evidence of admitted obstruction of justice. The rest was just presented as context since 45 is so inarticulate and rambling that I wanted to show clearly that the subject of deciding to "just do it" referred to firing Comey.

Just as an early morning wake up surprise, our orange faced leader just twittered in three installments that first, he is such a busy and happening president that you can't expect his spokespersons and surrogates to always be "perfectly accurate" in what they say. And because of that uncertain accuracy maybe it might be best to do away with press briefings altogether and just issue written statements of White House policy. And then after that he threatened James Comey that if he is going to leak alternative accounts of their conversations that he had better hope that there are no tapes of their conversations. And I thought yesterday was wild and crazy. Who knows, maybe 45 will challenge Comey to a duel with pistols at dawn on the White House lawn like the Founding Fathers were accustomed to do in settling questions of honor.

Edited by yadda yadda, 12 May 2017 - 07:52 AM.


#37 sierraleone

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 08:05 AM

View Postyadda yadda, on 12 May 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Sierraleone, I don't know how to post or cut and paste transcripts. That is why I listened to this part of his interview and painstakingly transcribed it myself, writing it down in 5 or 6 word increments on paper, and then posting it.

Sorry if it came off as I thought you were lying, or at least casting shade, not at all. And I've done the same thing, pain-stakening re-watched something to accurately share the details of the news I had watched. Though I was not sure you had put that much work into it (thank you), I certainly did not feel you were spreading falsehoods. It is just so hard to tell satire from the truth now-a-days, when I saw your post, I wanted to find a source so that other people could see it too.

Quote

The all caps portion was to me, and Rachel Maddow, the portion where he admitted that the Russia-Trump connection being made up was the light bulb going off that illuminated his decision to fire Comey. And that suggests a path to demonstrable evidence of admitted obstruction of justice. The rest was just presented as context since 45 is so inarticulate and rambling that I wanted to show clearly that the subject of deciding to "just do it" referred to firing Comey.

I agree. I watch/listen to Maddow in the morning, but I had responded to your post before doing so this morning :)

Quote

Just as an early morning wake up surprise, our orange faced leader just twittered in three installments that first, he is such a busy and happening president that you can't expect his spokespersons and surrogates to always be "perfectly accurate" in what they say. And because of that uncertain accuracy maybe it might be best to do away with press briefings altogether and just issue written statements of White House policy. And then after that he threatened James Comey that if he is going to leak alternative accounts of their conversations that he had better hope that there are no tapes of their conversations. And I thought yesterday was wild and crazy. Who knows, maybe 45 will challenge Comey to a duel with pistols at dawn on the White House lawn like the Founding Fathers were accustomed to do in settling questions of honor.

6 tweets in the last hour, yeah, he is really busy Presidenting isn't he?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#38 sierraleone

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 10:00 AM

Drip drip drip

There are reports (with, yes, anonymous sources), regarding the dinner Trump and Comey had shortly after inauguration. These sources say that Comey told them about it shortly after, but not to speak about it while he was the FBI director.

They claim that Comey told them that twice Trump requested (or required?) a loyalty pledge from Comey. Comey demured, and only pledged to be honest. In a third quasi try Trump asked for his loyalty to honesty or something like that and that is something Comey said he could commit to.

Yes, it is an anonymous source. But how does it fit into the constellation of other knowns and other statements?

- Trump demands, and highly values, loyalty.
- During a flip flop of the statements regarding how this decision to fire Comey was made, it was said that Trump has been considering firing Comey since inauguration.

That anonymously sourced scoop fits very well into the above data, and that is just off the top of my head.

Edited by sierraleone, 12 May 2017 - 10:03 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#39 Elara

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 02:54 PM

Well, Spicey sure put his foot down concerning the Tweet:

White House Refuses to Say, of Course, Whether Trump Actually Taped Comey

Quote

REPORTER: Moving on to the news of the week, did president Trump record his conversations with former FBI director Comey?
SPICER: I assume you're referring to the tweet. And I've talked to the president—the president has nothing further to add.
REPORTER: Why did he say that? Why did he tweet that? What should we interpret from that?
SPICER: As I mentioned, the president has nothing further to add.
REPORTER: Are there recording devices in the Oval Office or the residence?
SPICER: As I said for the third time, there is nothing further to add on that.
REPORTER: Does he think it is appropriate to threaten someone like Mr. Comey not to speak?SPICER: I don't think that's a threat. He simply stated a fact, the tweet speaks for itself. I'm moving on.

So... there. nyah-nyah-nyah!

Forget Bush jr., Nixon is sounding better, more sane.

Edited by Elara, 12 May 2017 - 02:55 PM.

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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

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#40 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 02:58 PM

http://www.foxnews.c...over-leaks.html

I'm going to give President Trump the benefit of the doubt and say that this was Trump's humor gone horribly wrong. I'm guessing Trump was irritated by the media's constant comparison between him and Nixon, he just tweeted what he thought would be a funny joke. Not really sure how I feel about a President joking about a very serious situation like this though.

As for cancelling the Press Briefings....Absolutely, positively, the worst idea possible.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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