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POTUS 2017: pre-impeachment/resignation discussion

Comey obstruction memos Intel drop to Russia

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#261 Cait

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:11 PM

It does seem we're going to have a Merry Christmas.  At least there is hope for ending this national nightmare.  I say "hope" because I'll believe it when I see the indictments come down, and #45 forced to resign.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#262 gsmonks

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:25 PM

They are saying that Trump's small circle of creeps makes it easy to take the lot of 'em down, as it makes the cross-referencing process easy as pie. Imagine a tv cop show's suspect/victim board and you'll about have it.

What I find funny is that Trump boils as the heat is turned up. I can't wait to see what a rolling boil looks like.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#263 sierraleone

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:26 PM

I am not confident that any public action on Trump (or his son-in-law) will happen before Christmas, but I would be ecstatic if it did.

Edited by sierraleone, 01 December 2017 - 02:27 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#264 sierraleone

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 06:42 PM

I was reminded today of the Russia sanctions the Senate passed this summer by veto-proof majority, that Trump signed Aug 2nd, were to go into effect Oct 1st. Trump's administration still has not enforced those sanctions. Here is a WaPo article from Oct 26th on it. So this law is 2 months late being implemented at this point.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#265 sierraleone

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 06:51 PM

*laughs* I have nothing of substance to add to this thread (not that there hasn't been Russia news in the last two weeks but I am hair-brained). I just wanted to share from WaPo: Kushner's leg am team looks to hire crisis public relations firm amid Russia probe, specifically after a comment about rumours of pending inductments on Kushner (which I don't give credibility) some commenters took it upon themselves to change up some holiday tunes:

Quote

he's making a list
he's checkin' it twice
he's gonna find out who's naughty and who's nice

Mueller Claus is coming to town

Quote

It's beginning to look a lot like treason,
Everywhere Trump goes.
There's a Russian behind the Prez,
Controlling what all he says.
Indictments falling like Siberian snow - oh no!

Quote

My dreidel's name is Jared.
How frantically he'll spin!
But he can't outrun Mueller

Or AG Schneiderman.

Quote

Mueller baby, so hurry down the indictment tonight!

Quote

I'm dreaming of an indictment Christmas.


Quote

On the twelfth day of Christmas Bob Mueller sent to me:

12 ‘dictments dooming
11 Peeps a Probing
10 Liars a Leaving
9 Dems a Dancing
8 “Malts” a Melting
7 Senators Swooning
6 Staff a Lying
5 Russian Stings!
4 Bailsmen Bonds
3 Fed’ral Pens
2 Hands in Cuffs

and Donald Trump to the Penitentiary!

Edited by sierraleone, 15 December 2017 - 07:11 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#266 sierraleone

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 08:02 PM

Maybe things are heating up…  There are some headlines up saying Trump's lawyers meeting with Mueller and team as early as next week. My computer is acting up, so no handy links at the moment, but I know some of those headlines was for CNN.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#267 sierraleone

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 08:30 AM

Interesting

WaPo: Mueller unlawfully obtains emails, Trump transition team says

1) An organization, Trump for America(TFA), that was part of the transition team, alleges Mueller improperly obtained a treasure trove (thousands of pages) of emails as part of his inquiry,
2) TFA allege the federal General Services Administration(GSA) improperly provided the documents.
3) TFA allege that a GSA career employee improperly provided the "privileged"(?) communications to the Mueller probe and think the GSA employee did it for political reasons.
4) TFA allege Mueller required a warrant or subpoena.
5) TFA allege that transition documents are private, not government property.
6) TFA allege that Mueller used the documents extensively without notifying TFA
7) TFA allege that GSA had ensured TFA that while it retained copies of the transition records it would not released them without consulting the organization.
8) The FBI requested the documents and they were provided by the GSA in Sep.

Thats a lot of claims.

Questions that need to be answered:

A) Does the documents being of a transition team (quasi government officials) and/or being in possession of government (and not being specifically about a private citizen like tax returns, etc), make it a government document? I presume the protections (from the law) of government documents is less than the protection of private documents.
B) I wonder regarding 7) whether consulting the TFA means consulting TFA's lawyer? TFA's former lawyer, Richard Beckler, was hospitalized in Aug and passed away Sep 25. Per WaPo Special counsel obtains thousands of Trump transition emails. Possibly that could have lead to an administrative snafu (not necessary on Mueller's party, but on GSA or TFAs part), if it wasn't intentional. Possible considering that the documents were passed over in Sep.
C) If someone at TFA or GSA provided the documents to Mueller's team voluntarily and of their own free will I assume Mueller wouldn't need a warrant or subpoena, is that not the case? Now, of course, there could be repercussions for the TFA or GSA employee, if they didn't follow policy and procedures, or even broke some law doing so. I think Mueller is smart enough to endeavour to avoid any perception of impropriety, if possible. But we don't even know if there is anything improper per A) & B).

From to the second link above:

Quote

[GSA deputy council Lenny] Loewentritt said the transition was informed that by using government devices, the agency wouldn’t hold back records from law enforcement. Transition officials signed agreements that warn them that materials kept on the government servers are subject to monitoring and auditing, he told Buzzfeed, and there’s no expectation of privacy.

A commenter provided a link that appears to show a list of Trump for America officials and their titles/roles, including Chairman Mike Pence, 8 elected active government representatives among the Vice Chairs, and 8 more in the Executive Committee. There are some notable non-government people too (Rebekah Mercer for one).

As I understand it while Mueller has had these documents since Sep the TFA organization only learned of this mid last week.

Edited by sierraleone, 17 December 2017 - 08:31 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#268 sierraleone

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:05 AM

More new holiday jingles from the WaPo comments:

Quote

♫♬
Just hear those 'dictments jingling
Ring-ting-tingling too
Come on, it's lovely weather
For a grand jury together with you
Outside the s*** is flying
Colluders are calling, "Boo hoo"
Come on, it's lovely weather
For a grand jury together with you


Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#269 sierraleone

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:54 AM

Fox News Host/former Judge Jeanine Pirro has said that there is a criminal cabal in the FBI trying to overturn democracy, per Fox article with video of her statement imbedded.

ETA: You know, if the Republicans and right-wing media were quiet or at least ho-hum over the last revelations I might go…. Okay, Mueller got the emails in Sep, he has been interviewing people since and comparing their interview answers against the emails. Mueller just finished interviewing White House people up the beginning of last week, and TFA found out about the emails being in Mueller's hand mid last week. And everyone is ho-hum, I guess no one is worried about themselves or someone else having lied to the FBI eh? Maybe there is nothing to this.

I think anyone who was part of the TFA should not be involved in any investigation oversight of the TFA. And their public comments should be suspect.

Edited by sierraleone, 17 December 2017 - 11:24 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#270 Omega

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 04:39 PM

I'm just hoping Marsha Blackburn gets consumed by this...

#271 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:15 PM

View PostOmega, on 17 December 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

I'm just hoping Marsha Blackburn gets consumed by this...

I wouldn't hold out hope of ANYONE getting burned by those illegally obtained emails Mueller got.

http://www.foxnews.c...ssia-probe.html

Apparently Mueller doesn't believe in Attorney Client privilege, among other privileges he violated in the way he obtained those documents. But no real Judge would allow privileged evidence in a case, and any evidence obtained through those privileged documents would be fruit of the poisonous tree and thrown out of a court of law so fast.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#272 Cait

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:46 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 18 December 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

View PostOmega, on 17 December 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

I'm just hoping Marsha Blackburn gets consumed by this...

I wouldn't hold out hope of ANYONE getting burned by those illegally obtained emails Mueller got.

http://www.foxnews.c...ssia-probe.html

Apparently Mueller doesn't believe in Attorney Client privilege, among other privileges he violated in the way he obtained those documents. But no real Judge would allow privileged evidence in a case, and any evidence obtained through those privileged documents would be fruit of the poisonous tree and thrown out of a court of law so fast.

Do you know anything about how the government and the laws regarding the government work?  I mean anything at all that is accurate? It's mind boggling how you just accept a headline as fact and never question the veracity of it.  You are amazingly and willfully ignorant of how a govt job works.

First, as soon as anyone begins using a @gov anything they have no privacy when it comes to emails.  They all fall under the written materials preservation act.  It says right on the paperwork, that once you begin using @govt devices, YOU HAVE NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#273 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 02:49 PM

View PostCait, on 18 December 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:



First, as soon as anyone begins using a @gov anything they have no privacy when it comes to emails.  They all fall under the written materials preservation act.  It says right on the paperwork, that once you begin using @govt devices, YOU HAVE NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY.

It also falls under the 4th amendment. Looks, I get it. The Left is still in meltdown cause Trump won fair and square, and the Left just can't accept it. Their even going so far as to violate attorney client privilege (there is a REASON cops can't listen in when a suspect is talking to his lawyer). But bottom line is that the Left just can't accept their Lord and Savior Hillary lost fair and square. Or as your last Lord and Savior, Obama, would say "Move On" already.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#274 sierraleone

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 03:08 PM

If the TFA or WH lawyers have any legal argument to make take it to the court.

You know, I am not convinced that actual conspiracy will be proven (attempted conspiracy on Trump's campaign's part, and/or unilateral Russia interference, is another matter). But that is because Putin is not that stupid. Long term Putin gains little and risks lots if it can be pinned on him or his government. But sowing mistrust in American democracy and institutions risks little and gains Putin lots.

it is also possible for lots of Trump campaign and transition officials to end up being proven of wrong-doing and none proven of Trump.


Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#275 Cait

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 03:30 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 18 December 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

View PostCait, on 18 December 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

First, as soon as anyone begins using a @gov anything they have no privacy when it comes to emails.  They all fall under the written materials preservation act.  It says right on the paperwork, that once you begin using @govt devices, YOU HAVE NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY.

It also falls under the 4th amendment. Looks, I get it. The Left is still in meltdown cause Trump won fair and square, and the Left just can't accept it. Their even going so far as to violate attorney client privilege (there is a REASON cops can't listen in when a suspect is talking to his lawyer). But bottom line is that the Left just can't accept their Lord and Savior Hillary lost fair and square. Or as your last Lord and Savior, Obama, would say "Move On" already.

Once more for the cheap seats... when you take a government device, you are given a piece of paper that lays out what you can do and what you can't.  You're also told in no uncertain terms that your right to privacy is gone.  That anything you text or calls you make can be monitored.  This is done, not so much to spy on people or violate their privacy, but to make records available to "the People".  You know, us, their bosses.

It's done so that when you request something using the FOIA, there is in fact information available to review. It's all set up in the records preservation act [think it was around 1980 or so].  Everything is public, except for stuff relating to national security, and even some of that can be gotten by the public.  In any event, it all has to be saved and preserved.

In any event, the transition team would have known this, signed that they knew it, and been stupid not to realize that all their communication could be reviewed. There was no privacy here, and NO privilege. All Mueller had to do was request it, and it was turned over.  There was nothing illegal about it.

If it had been a legal matter, the lawyers for the Transition Pac would have gone to court for an injunction.  That's what we do in this country when we seek relief for some bad acts.  We go to court and seek relief.  The ACLU does it all the time, and they are pretty fast to file.  Lawyers in this case did not go to court for relief, they sent an insipid letter to congress to make a new law.  [Which BTW would not be retroactive, and would not stop Mueller from having the info that he has.  it wouldn't stop him from using it to indict or prosecute either.]

They didn't go to court because there was no legal basis for the filing.  Get it? There was nothing illegal to go to court to stop.  Instead they went to congress in a crazy effort to close the barn door after the horse was running free. Making them look like the idiots they are on one hand, and the gaslighting propagandists on the other. And, you ate it up like the dutiful hand fed lemer that you are.

Give your brain a work out and ask yourself, if it was illegal, why didn't they go to court immediately? Why draft a letter to Congress?  They did it because there was nothing illegal about it, and they wanted to fire people like you up about the criminal behavior of Mueller, because you people don't know how the government works.

When someone does something illegal, you go to court for a redress of a grievance.  That's how we all do it.  You don't go to Congress for a redress of a grievance. You go to Congress to make a new law. Courts = redress of grievances VS. Congress = make the laws. See the difference here?

As for the rest of your diatribe about Hillary, although you types like to think this can all be dismissed as "sour grapes", we're not sore losers, and you're a blind idiot to think that is all there is to this. We're not angry because Hillary lost, we're angry because #45 is a bad president.  it's not even a political ideology thing because Trump has no political ideology except to rob the treasury.

No, we're upset because an imbecile is running the government into the ground, while idiots like you scream that liberals are just sore losers.

we're upset because a madman is taking us to the brink of nuclear war, for no damn reason.

We're upset because the tax code is being changed to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

We're upset because the man is obstructing justice, firing people who could investigate him, stacking the courts with people that don't have a nodding acquaintance with the law, lining the pockets of Russian and American oligarchs, dismantling the State Department, threatening our national security with leaks of intel to our enemies, cozying up to Putin and threatening our own FBI and Intelligence communities.

It's not about Hillary.  It's about the man in the oval office.  If you can't see that one fact, then you are even blinder than I imagined. If that is the case, then I won't bother with trying to talk with you any further.

LotS, I think you are blinded by the propaganda you ingest on a daily basis.  You have backed the wrong horse, and no one will forgive you in the end for your willful ignorance of the true state of affairs in this country.

Peace out....

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#276 sierraleone

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 04:21 PM

^ Whoop whoop!
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#277 sierraleone

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 09:09 PM

WaPo: Judge dismisses lawsuit alleging Trump violated Constitution

It is about the emoluments clause because Trump's hotel and restaurants do business with foreign governments while he is in office.

Quote

But Judge George B. Daniels of the Southern District of New York ruled that the plaintiffs, led by the government watchdog group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW), lacked standing to bring such a case, saying it was up to Congress to prevent the president from accepting emoluments.

CREW said it plans to appeal the verdict.

“As the only political branch with the power to consent to violations of the Foreign Emoluments Clause, Congress is the appropriate body to determine whether, and to what extent, Defendant’s conduct unlawfully infringes on that power,” Daniels wrote in his ruling.

Is it just me or is that worded funny? The emoluments clause, as I understand it, is not a power, but a restriction on power.

Here is the text of the emoluments clause:

Quote

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

According to the article there is a domestic emoluments clause too that Trump is probably in violation of since state government officials has also given Trump's business business.

ETA: If anyone is curious the Judge that made this decision, Judge George Daniels, he is a Bill Clinton pick.

Edited by sierraleone, 21 December 2017 - 10:04 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#278 Omega

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:04 PM

The whole concept of standing desperately needs to be reviewed. The 27th Amendment is basically void because literally nobody has standing to challenge when Congress violates it.

#279 Cait

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:47 PM

You make good points, but I suspect many of these cases will head on up to SCOTUS for final determination. Most people don't understand the concept of "standing" and think  #45 got away with something here.  When actually, all the judge said was they didn't have standing, which isn't a 'no', it's a 'you're the wrong people to bring suit'.

They'll appeal it and we'll see what happens. At least we'll find out how stacked the courts have become since #45 took office.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#280 sierraleone

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:05 PM

View PostCait, on 22 December 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

You make good points, but I suspect many of these cases will head on up to SCOTUS for final determination. Most people don't understand the concept of "standing" and think  #45 got away with something here.  When actually, all the judge said was they didn't have standing, which isn't a 'no', it's a 'you're the wrong people to bring suit'.

They'll appeal it and we'll see what happens. At least we'll find out how stacked the courts have become since #45 took office.

And/or how (how do I put this?) wish-washy? cowardly? they are. It would be a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge deal if the courts said Trump violated the emoluments clause. I don't know how much practical effect it would have, that really depends on the White House and republican-controlled Congress (until at least 2019), neither of which I hold any confidence in. I am talking more the psychological effect. Does not such a ruling basically say that Trump either should properly divest of all of his business interests and/or that he should step down? And how does the White House, even if they wanted to honour such a ruling, do so when his business interests include real-estate with his name on it? He ain't selling no peanuts from the family peanut farm…. It basically says the President is breaking the law, what are we going to do about it? And it brings into question his legitimacy because of the lack of integrity there, regardless of his electoral-college win. IMHO anyways. So I can see some of the judges wanting to side-step this all big time. Not that they should, but it is human nature.

Edited by sierraleone, 22 December 2017 - 02:07 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


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