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POTUS 2017: pre-impeachment/resignation discussion

Comey obstruction memos Intel drop to Russia

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#81 sierraleone

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 06:28 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 08 June 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

Quote

ETA: and what about the 'statement' of Trump's, according to Comey "I need loyalty. I expect loyalty."

Entirely copacetic? From a person in position of incredible power? Really?


What about it? What is wrong with wanting an employee to be loyal?

Is it not problematic at all?

Not wanting. Requiring (what else do you get from need and expect?).


Good leaders (and/or charismatic ones) don't require loyalty, they inspire loyalty. So good leaders don't require loyalty pledges from good people.

Loyalty pledges don't work on people who are un-loyal and/or who hold dear other values/ethics. Loyalty to bad (malicious) and/or poor (incompetent) leaders creates problems, because loyalty to such leaders exasperates the conditions the bad and/or poor leader is creating.

So loyalty pledges are stupid and useless. Unless you require unquestioning obedience (which is easy to confuse with loyalty, but jettisoning other values, common sense, decency, critical thinking, is not loyalty). There are some things more important than loyalty to an individual. Because people are imperfect and fallible.

So, given this, what kind of leaders typically 'ask' for, or require, loyalty pledges?


Also, as explained before, while technically POTUS is boss of the executive branch, a justice/intelligence agencies are expected to be independent, for very good reasons (as this episode showcases!).

Also, a loyalty oath to any individual could conflict with the pledge Comey and many other federal officers make when taking office:

Quote

I, NAME, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

As yadda yadda said earlier NSA chief Mike Rogers & DNI Director Dan Coats stonewalled questions (and I have seen clips too) about whether Trump asked them to interfere in the Russia probe. I wonder where their loyalty lies. POTUS, or their pledge. I hope it is with the integrity of the Russia probe.

Edited by sierraleone, 08 June 2017 - 07:41 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#82 yadda yadda

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 12:06 PM

Open hearing just wrapped up. Last Senator to question was John McCain. He's not a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee but was allowed to sit in "ex officio", like one would audit a course in college, I'm guessing because of his Jurassic Period level,of seniority.

Holy crap! Old man McCain came off like he was stroking out or was drunk on his a$$. He was making no sense...referred to Trump as Comey twice. He mumbled some disjointed stuff about how Hillary's case was concluded, but Trump's is still ongoing...which is somehow a double standard because they were both involved in the same election, and Russia...? Seriously, he was affecting this old man getting ready to tell Comey to get off his lawn attitude, making no sense. So the Chairman started banging his gavel or pounding on his mic to get McCain to shut up and stop before his seven minutes was even expired. And McCain finally quit with a look plastered on his face like the Drunk Uncle character on SNL. Old dude is ready for the home. Or a rehab center.

#83 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:43 PM

So Comey admits to being the one leaking his memos, some of which contained classified info. Basically, Comey just admitted to a felony. Talk about a disgruntled employee going rogue. I wonder what the life expectancy for a former director of the FBI, in Federal prison, is?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#84 yadda yadda

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:59 PM

^ I didn't catch what was classified in the released memos. Care to elaborate?  :)

And since you're so sure Comey's down for a felony, do you think he'll end up sharing a cell with Kathy Griffin who you also adjudge to be a felon?

Edited by yadda yadda, 08 June 2017 - 02:02 PM.


#85 Cait

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 02:13 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 08 June 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

What about it? What is wrong with wanting an employee to be loyal?

Comey was not an employee of #45.  He could be fired by #45, but the Director of the FBI is not a Presidential employee.  He is the top investigative cop for the people.  He was our employee.  I am so tired of this being missed by #45 lunatics.  EVERY member of the government is our employee.  They function to keep the business of the people on the rails.  That the trains run, that we are defended, that the mail is on time, that we are healthy, that we have transportation, trade, etc.  ALL these functions are to serve the people.  NONE of it creates a boss/employee relationship.  The boss/employee relationship is between the government [employee] and the people [boss]. The chief Executive [President] is the guy in charge of the government, but he is also our employee.  WE can fire him.  Remember that.  The President is not our King.  He is a public servant.

Beyond that distinction, asking for loyalty from the director of the FBI was out of line, maybe even an ethics violation.  The FBI is independent, and it is independent for a reason.  NO president should be able to corner the Director and ask for personal loyalty.  if that we true, it would be part of the oath of office.  Don't confuse how you feel with the facts.  The oath of office never mentions loyalty to the President.  In the oath of office, fealty is sworn not to any man/woman or party, but to the constitution.  Those are the facts.

For crying out loud, please remember that.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#86 yadda yadda

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 02:30 PM

Listening to this attorney for 45, Kasowitz, I counted at least eight errors of fact, falsely mixing up dates, flat out lies, unsubstantiated BS, mis-characterizing "privileged communications", and misleading red herring fallacies, in the 2 or 3 minutes he was up there defending 45. He's supposed to be an elite high-priced lawyer. It looks like 45 would be better off retaining Cellino & Barnes or Larry H. Parker as far as bang for his legal buck. But then as usual, 45 likely has no plans to pay the guy anyway. I for sure wouldn't after that example of ill-conceived mumbo jumbo word salad.

Edited by yadda yadda, 08 June 2017 - 02:33 PM.


#87 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 07:51 PM

View Postyadda yadda, on 08 June 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

^ I didn't catch what was classified in the released memos. Care to elaborate?  :)

And since you're so sure Comey's down for a felony, do you think he'll end up sharing a cell with Kathy Griffin who you also adjudge to be a felon?

Male and female inmates aren't housed in the same cells, or same wings for that matter.

As for the classified info:



Comey himself admits to doing this. He tries to cover himself by saying: "Since the classified material I jotted down was my own memo, I no longer consider it classified." Must be nice to just declassify things like that, without having to go through proper channels.

He also claims that he leaked the info in the hopes of creating a special prosecutor...talk about trying to manipulate the Justice department.

In addition to which, I think it's fairly obvious who was leaking the info from the FBI, to the press, for the past couple of weeks. Comey has already admitted to doing this once, no reason to believe he didn't do it before. Once a leaker always a leaker. Comey is now on par with Snowden. Perhaps Comey will seek sanctuary in Russia, just like Snowden?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#88 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 08:28 PM

I'm also finding it very suspicious that Comey testified today that he felt disturbed by AG Lynch ordering him to refer to the Clinton investigation as "A matter". He testified that he was uncomfortable with that amount of political pressure, but didn't document his problems with it in memos, like he did with Trump?

He also testified that Trump, himself, isn't under investigation by the FBI, nor has Trump ever been under investigation, and that the stories printed in NYT and others are just flat out FALSE. Not that THAT is going to deter the left and their Witch hunt.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#89 sierraleone

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 08:54 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 08 June 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

He also testified that Trump, himself, isn't under investigation by the FBI, nor has Trump ever been under investigation, and that the stories printed in NYT and others are just flat out FALSE. Not that THAT is going to deter the left and their Witch hunt.

That is probably mostly because you don't start at the top with such an investigation. People at the top are often well insulated. Most likely one is going to become aware of likely wrong doing among the low hanging fruit available. Once one becomes aware of that, one may gaze at the leader fruit at the apex of the tree in suspicion, and realize they are likely involved, but are a ways from proof of this. With the evidence of the wrong-doing of the low-hanging fruit, investigators can use that as leverage to gain that fruit's co-operate to gain new evidence, or co-operative testimony, of higher fruit. And so then the investigators attempt to climb the tree.

So, no, this does not means Trump is in the clear definitively for the duration of the investigation. The only thing that is definitive, according to Comey's testimony, is that Trump was was not a subject of the investigation as of May 9thish.

Edited by sierraleone, 08 June 2017 - 10:06 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#90 yadda yadda

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 08:55 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 08 June 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

j

View Postyadda yadda, on 08 June 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

^ I didn't catch what was classified in the released memos. Care to elaborate?  :)

And since you're so sure Comey's down for a felony, do you think he'll end up sharing a cell with Kathy Griffin who you also adjudge to be a felon?

Male and female inmates aren't housed in the same cells, or same wings for that matter.

As for the classified info:



Comey himself admits to doing this. He tries to cover himself by saying: "Since the classified material I jotted down was my own memo, I no longer consider it classified." Must be nice to just declassify things like that, without having to go through proper channels.

He also claims that he leaked the info in the hopes of creating a special prosecutor...talk about trying to manipulate the Justice department.

In addition to which, I think it's fairly obvious who was leaking the info from the FBI, to the press, for the past couple of weeks. Comey has already admitted to doing this once, no reason to believe he didn't do it before. Once a leaker always a leaker. Comey is now on par with Snowden. Perhaps Comey will seek sanctuary in Russia, just like Snowden?

Yeah, I thought so. Your "quote" up above, attributed to Comey... "Since the classified material I jotted down was my very own memo, I no longer consider it classified" is contained nowhere in the YouTube clip provided. You made it up, I assume as some form of skewed and spurious apparent imaginary paraphrasing of Comey's testimony. Comey remarks to Sen. Blunt's questions in which Blunt clumsily TRIES to suggest Comey might be passing classified or privileged memo contents to his friend at Columbia law school in CORRECTING Blunt's false attempt at conflation by saying, "no, Senator, NOT classified". He went on to explain that he memorialized UNCLASSIFIED memo content of conversations he had with the president and had every right as a private citizen to do what he pleased with such information. I suggest you go back and listen to the exchange again as many times as you need to comprehend the questions and testimony until you have some basic understanding of it.

Then perhaps you will be able to post about it with some small scintilla of a grasp of rationality and reality instead of belching out falsehoods and description of scenarios opposite to the truth. You're welcome.

Edited by yadda yadda, 08 June 2017 - 09:37 PM.


#91 yadda yadda

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:45 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 08 June 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

I'm also finding it very suspicious that Comey testified today that he felt disturbed by AG Lynch ordering him to refer to the Clinton investigation as "A matter". He testified that he was uncomfortable with that amount of political pressure, but didn't document his problems with it in memos, like he did with Trump?

He also testified that Trump, himself, isn't under investigation by the FBI, nor has Trump ever been under investigation, and that the stories printed in NYT and others are just flat out FALSE. Not that THAT is going to deter the left and their Witch hunt.

Comey testified that 45 wasn't under personal investigation as of the day Comey was fired. He has no way of knowing if 45 is under personal investigation now, a month later, or will be in the future of the Special Counsel's inquiries. And considering the chain of events 45 unleashed by firing Comey and thus triggering the appointment of Mueller as Special Counselor  he very likely is now under investigation for obstruction of justice and also likely a host of financial and fraud crimes opened up like a can of worms in the expanding purview of Mueller's investigation. Cheers! LOL!

Edited by yadda yadda, 09 June 2017 - 05:08 AM.


#92 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 04:51 AM

http://www.washingto...article/2625372

Even Chris Matthews, from MSNBC, admits that the whole Russia collusion theory has been blown out of the water. Go figure.

Quote

And yet what came apart this morning was that theory," Matthews said, listing two reasons why. First, he said Comey revealed that "Flynn wasn't central to the Russian investigation," and secondly, he said that kills the idea that Flynn might have been in a position to testify against Trump.

"And if that's not the case, where's the there-there?" Matthews said

Edited by Lord of the Sword, 09 June 2017 - 04:52 AM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#93 Omega

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 08:01 AM

^You've already been caught repeating lies about this testimony by not paying close enough attention. Maybe you should be careful repeating more things without checking?

#94 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 08:06 AM

View PostOmega, on 09 June 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

^You've already been caught repeating lies about this testimony by not paying close enough attention. Maybe you should be careful repeating more things without checking?

I honestly don't even know why I bother anymore. People here are just like the F-ing NYTimes. Come outs them, during the testimony, testifies that their storys are completely false, and they still persist. The majority here have already decided that Trump must've committed some crime, all because their horrid candidate Hillary lost.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#95 Omega

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 08:16 AM

Naturally, you don't respond to the point that YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT REPEATING LIES.

Trump outright said he fired Comey to end the investigation into Trump's Russia connections. Trump ADMITTED TO A CRIME. This is after three or four of his lead staffers have been forced to resign for their shady or illegal Russia connections. If you're so biased you think we should ignore that, you cannot be taken seriously.

Honestly, ask yourself, "If Trump was actually on Putin's payroll and working in the best interests of Russia. What would he do differently?" Can you think of one thing? What would it take for you to say "Trump is possibly a criminal?" If you can't specify what evidence would change your mind, you are not a rational actor.

What Comey actually said was that Trump wasn't a focus of the counterintelligence portion of the FBI investigation earlier this year. That fact could change, or may already have changed, as the investigation is ongoing. He also repeatedly called Trump a liar, and refused to comment on whether Trump had obstructed justice. He said Russia has been hacking the US for two years, that he's 100% sure that they interfered in the election.

Most interestingly, he said that Pence knew that Flynn was compromised... because what Pence knew when is still one of the variables in all the crimes being committed.

Edited by Omega, 09 June 2017 - 08:27 AM.


#96 Omega

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 08:24 AM

Another interesting question is, why does Trump keep backing Flynn up? Why has he repeatedly tried to save a man that can't be saved? If Trump has one defining characteristic, it's a complete lack of personal loyalty to anyone or anything. He throws people under the bus every single day. So why is he lying down on the railroad tracks for only one person, who has serious Russia connections, and is known to have committed crimes that may include treason? Since Trump is 100% self-interested, he has to see that as being necessary to protect himself.

Edited by Omega, 09 June 2017 - 08:26 AM.


#97 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 08:47 AM

View PostOmega, on 09 June 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Naturally, you don't respond to the point that YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT REPEATING LIES.



Actually, No I haven't. Just because people here refuse to accept the FACT that Trump is President, and will take up any story the Fake news media, like the NYTimes, and run with it doesn't make me a liar. Period.

Got news for you, the "Left" isn't always correct. Hell, lately the Left has been acting more anti free speech, more violent then the far right is suppose to be, and essentially more facist then anyone thought possible.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#98 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 08:54 AM

View PostOmega, on 09 June 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:


Trump outright said he fired Comey to end the investigation into Trump's Russia connections. Trump ADMITTED TO A CRIME. This is after three or four of his lead staffers have been forced to resign for their shady or illegal Russia connections. If you're so biased you think we should ignore that, you cannot be taken seriously.

Honestly, ask yourself, "If Trump was actually on Putin's payroll and working in the best interests of Russia. What would he do differently?" Can you think of one thing? What would it take for you to say "Trump is possibly a criminal?" If you can't specify what evidence would change your mind, you are not a rational actor.

What Comey actually said was that Trump wasn't a focus of the counterintelligence portion of the FBI investigation earlier this year. That fact could change, or may already have changed, as the investigation is ongoing. He also repeatedly called Trump a liar, and refused to comment on whether Trump had obstructed justice. He said Russia has been hacking the US for two years, that he's 100% sure that they interfered in the election.

Most interestingly, he said that Pence knew that Flynn was compromised... because what Pence knew when is still one of the variables in all the crimes being committed.


Comey also said he was the Leaker at the FBI. And since he's been fired, I can't recall anymore leaks coming out of the FBI. So apparently his memos weren't all the leaking he did. That makes Comey a traitor at worst, a criminal at best.

Firing Comey did absolutely NOTHING to the Russia investigation. One person, even the director, isn't conducting that investigation.

As for what evidence for the whole Trump is a Russian agent...How about showing actual, you know, concrete proof. Not this fake news BS the fakestream media has been running with. Show video, or even audio, of Trump and Russia conspiring to rig the election. Or something along those lines. Enough of the "Look, Trump has Russian salad dressing on his salad, he's a Russian agent." BS.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#99 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 08:57 AM

View PostOmega, on 09 June 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

Another interesting question is, why does Trump keep backing Flynn up? Why has he repeatedly tried to save a man that can't be saved? If Trump has one defining characteristic, it's a complete lack of personal loyalty to anyone or anything. He throws people under the bus every single day. So why is he lying down on the railroad tracks for only one person, who has serious Russia connections, and is known to have committed crimes that may include treason? Since Trump is 100% self-interested, he has to see that as being necessary to protect himself.


Now THAT I honestly don't know the answer to. I could speculate, but that would be all it would be...pure speculation on my part. If I had to guess, I think that Trump believes that if Flynn goes down for conspiring with Russia during the election, the mainstream media would twist and turn that into "Trump conspired." That's the only reason I can think of.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#100 Omega

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 08:59 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 09 June 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

View PostOmega, on 09 June 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Naturally, you don't respond to the point that YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT REPEATING LIES.



Actually, No I haven't. Just because people here refuse to accept the FACT that Trump is President, and will take up any story the Fake news media, like the NYTimes, and run with it doesn't make me a liar. Period.

Got news for you, the "Left" isn't always correct. Hell, lately the Left has been acting more anti free speech, more violent then the far right is suppose to be, and essentially more facist then anyone thought possible.

You changed the subject three times, and still didn't address the lies you repeated. You said Comey admitted to leaking classified information. The video YOU POSTED said the exact opposite. Is your own video evidence fake news now? Or are you finally going to admit to spreading lies?


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